No "Bling" Killed Rock?

[Stormbringer]

Yeah but it's laughable to think that self-absorbed pity somehow originated with a couple bands out of Seattle .... Roger Waters had that market cornered before Cobain left daycare. Does somebody think Robert Johnson was singing about pimpin' his ride, or wishing he HAD a ride?

*edit -- moreoever, Nirvana missed the boat on popularizing teen angst by 20 years ... Quadrophenia was released in 1973 and was just dripping with 'wah wah poor me' ... it was also one hell of an album.

True but back then there was a whole lot more diversity in bands. The "Grunge Revolution" basically dominated music at the time in a way a few isolated bands that played similar music decades before did not.

[Grahf: Seeker Of Power]

I would say Godsmack were a successful modern rock band. Even though Awake is more heavy metal than actual rock, their first album and to an extent Faceless were more conventional rock. Granted, Sully Erna's creativity was not all that diverse, i still enjoy godsmack, and yet i also enjoy the older stuff (AC/DC, Metallica, Led Zeppelin) and alot of the new wave of underground metal like Killswitch, Shadows Fall, Chimaira, Trivium, and Avenged Sevenfold. The main thing to remember is that rock is such an insanely diverse genre, i mean i think it was the 1988 MTV music awards or something along that lines where Jethro Tull won out over Metallica: And Justice for All for best metal album i believe.

[Lord Poe]

May the ghost of Hendrix rip your tongue out and beat your poser 'I know what rock is' ass senseless, Gene. Like *you* know a fucking thing about rock, you're a Vegas act that turned a gimmick into a few dollars, big frickin' deal ...

Another fucking idiot spewing off on something he knows nothing about.

No, Simmons knows nothing about rock, right grunge boy? KISS has been around for over 30 years, has had successful tours even as recent as last year, has sold 80 million records worldwide. The "KISS Unplugged" MTV show is the second highest rated "Unplugged" special right behind Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, so go cry into your Wal-Mart plaid kilt, Seattle fucknut.

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

'Rap is relevant and hip' because of misogyny and self-indulgence? Check back into rehab, Gene.

How many well-known and successful rappers can you name who DON'T live the lifestyle? How many of them look and act like average blue collar Joes?

Old Dirty Bastard comes to mind. (Or Big Baby Jesus or Dirt McGurt) Plus I remember seeing an Episode of "Cribs" with Redman, and boy was his House (as big as it was) Ghetto!

All in all it still varies with Rappers. Some Like to "Keep it Real". (whether or not how well off they may be) others are a little more blatant with their style. (Thank You Pdiddy. )

[Chmee]

May the ghost of Hendrix rip your tongue out and beat your poser 'I know what rock is' ass senseless, Gene. Like *you* know a fucking thing about rock, you're a Vegas act that turned a gimmick into a few dollars, big frickin' deal ...

Another fucking idiot spewing off on something he knows nothing about.

No, Simmons knows nothing about rock, right grunge boy? KISS has been around for over 30 years, has had successful tours even as recent as last year, has sold 80 million records worldwide. The "KISS Unplugged" MTV show is the second highest rated "Unplugged" special right behind Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, so go cry into your Wal-Mart plaid kilt, Seattle fucknut.

If you took out the Unplugged special you could just as easily have been describing Neil Diamond or Paul Anka ..... I never said he lacked commercial success, but if commecial success was what gave your opinion weight then I guess we'd be asking Michael Jackson to define rock for us ....... and hey, he seems to have been taking some makeup tips from Gene over the last few years, so maybe they share a viewpoint here.

[Chmee]

Yeah but it's laughable to think that self-absorbed pity somehow originated with a couple bands out of Seattle .... Roger Waters had that market cornered before Cobain left daycare. Does somebody think Robert Johnson was singing about pimpin' his ride, or wishing he HAD a ride?

*edit -- moreoever, Nirvana missed the boat on popularizing teen angst by 20 years ... Quadrophenia was released in 1973 and was just dripping with 'wah wah poor me' ... it was also one hell of an album.

True but back then there was a whole lot more diversity in bands. The "Grunge Revolution" basically dominated music at the time in a way a few isolated bands that played similar music decades before did not.

This 'diversity' issue raises something to me a lot more significant than a couple regional bands. The perception that one style or sound dominates the genre seems to me more a function of how musical tastes during this era became so heavily influenced by a very narrow media presence -- MTV and big monopoly radio chains like Clear Channel. In the 70's and 80's you actually had a good diversity of local radio stations that played ... believe it or not ... different playlists! You heard The Clash or Sun Ra on your local indy station and went 'whoa, that's bizarre, what the hell is it and where do I buy it?' MTV went very quickly from showcasing new artists to hyping whatever they thought 'the trend' was, which led to some very narrow alleys. It might not have been diversity of bands that was the problem in that era, but diversity in the distribution systems that were capable of making a given band into superstars.

So yeah, I think if that was your primary means of discovering new music, then certain 'sounds' were very disproportionately emphasized during that period, just as rap is disproportionately emphasized now although there is just as much, if not more, good original blues, jazz, bluegrass, country, and hard guitar rock as ever being played by musicians all over the world.

It'll be interesting to see where the proliferation of indy stations that stream music globally and pay-services that let you stream and choose new music from thousands of bands will take the whole system ... hard to believe the grip of the big labels can be maintained, but the new system might make 'superstar' bands a thing of the past if it washes away all the old systems that created them.

[The Morrigan]

Rock is dead?

[Anarchist Bunny]

Here's a fun challenge: name a great rock song from any time between 1997 and 2001. Better yet, name a great mainstream rock band from the same time period. There's a reason why in my high school, the kids that didn't like rap listened to Led Zeppelin instead of the new stuff that was available.

I might have my dates off but Union Underground, System of a Down, and Disturbed.

[aerius]

May the ghost of Hendrix rip your tongue out and beat your poser 'I know what rock is' ass senseless, Gene. Like *you* know a fucking thing about rock, you're a Vegas act that turned a gimmick into a few dollars, big frickin' deal ...

Another fucking idiot spewing off on something he knows nothing about.

No, Simmons knows nothing about rock, right grunge boy? KISS has been around for over 30 years, has had successful tours even as recent as last year, has sold 80 million records worldwide. The "KISS Unplugged" MTV show is the second highest rated "Unplugged" special right behind Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, so go cry into your Wal-Mart plaid kilt, Seattle fucknut.

That's the thing, many, many people seriously underestimate Gene Simmons and have conceptions of him that are completely mistaken. They think he's just another has-been rock star who partied way too much and slept with 5000 women.

What they don't realize is that Gene Simmons is fucking smart. If you ever see him being interviewed he's articulate, sharp, and makes good logical points. Same thing in his writing, he knows what he's talking about.

But idiots like Chmee just see the face paint and his stage acts and that's all they need to stereotype him as just another rock bozo. Gene Simmons would destroy them in debates as effortlessly as Mike Wong crushes the Trektard of the week.

[Chmee]

May the ghost of Hendrix rip your tongue out and beat your poser 'I know what rock is' ass senseless, Gene. Like *you* know a fucking thing about rock, you're a Vegas act that turned a gimmick into a few dollars, big frickin' deal ...

Another fucking idiot spewing off on something he knows nothing about.

No, Simmons knows nothing about rock, right grunge boy? KISS has been around for over 30 years, has had successful tours even as recent as last year, has sold 80 million records worldwide. The "KISS Unplugged" MTV show is the second highest rated "Unplugged" special right behind Robert Plant and Jimmy Page, so go cry into your Wal-Mart plaid kilt, Seattle fucknut.

That's the thing, many, many people seriously underestimate Gene Simmons and have conceptions of him that are completely mistaken. They think he's just another has-been rock star who partied way too much and slept with 5000 women.

What they don't realize is that Gene Simmons is fucking smart. If you ever see him being interviewed he's articulate, sharp, and makes good logical points. Same thing in his writing, he knows what he's talking about.

But idiots like Chmee just see the face paint and his stage acts and that's all they need to stereotype him as just another rock bozo. Gene Simmons would destroy them in debates as effortlessly as Mike Wong crushes the Trektard of the week.

Ah, another rather large misinterpretation of what I said ... actually I'd assume that you'd have to be fairly smart to turn that act into a commercial success, and as you said Simmons is quite an articulate speaker .... he's got a strong opinion on this one, which I happen to completely disagree with. So he's a rock star with a big ego and a lot to say that sounds like bullshit ... wow, alert the media, that's a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence. Maybe he can get a reality show with Sinead and Ted Nugent.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I kind of agree with Gene. The 70s and 80s rock scene may have been kind of dark at times (and some times lethal, alot of rock stars didn't survive it), but over all, it was all about living. It was partying and rock-and-roll and scoring with chicks and taking life by the balls. In a very weird way, it was very positive music and it's shows were great.

But then you've got post-Nirvana Seattle stuff and all they do is bitch about life. They aren't about the spectacle or taking life by the scrotum, they were depressed about how life is such a raw deal. I think that's what killed rock, because it got seriously off-message. Occasionally it's decent music, but it doesn't make me want to rock out and kick ass and fuck and party.

I don't disagree that that's a vision of what rock is/was about ... but I think it's impossible to pigeonhole the whole genre that way. I guess that's what I really object to in the OP, the idea that rock could possibly fit into any single person's vision of what it is or was. Is AC/DC more 'truly' rock than Chuck Barry? Was Robin Trower less of a rocker than Pete Townshend because he wasn't busting up hotel rooms? I like Stevie Ray Vaughn more than Liz Phair, but I still think she gets to put her CD's in the rock section. They didn't all fit into one neat little stereotype when Gene's band had their 15 minutes and they don't today, that's my objection to his whole hypothesis.

Look, you want to be big and bad with the young, you need to appeal to what the young want to live like and do. And as an eighteen year old, fuck all that noise: I want to party and fuck and enjoy myself.

[Stormbringer]

<Snip a big long, off topic rant>

So basically any band that's obscure and all but forgotten is immediately more worthwhile than a band with commercial success and heave forbid a name people recognize. Gotcha.

It's all Clear Channel and MTVs fault that my indy rock darlings don't get played. They're ruining music. Gotcha.

Now back to the actual topic. Your rant doesn't change one bit of what I said about the grunge rock trend, in fact it only makes a for a better arguement for it if you accept it's true. With it's absurd dominance of the music scene in the early 90s, it was the music of the mainstream. So when it fell, because of it's own failings, that meant it pretty much took rock with it.

[Dooku's Disciple]

Was grunge really as "innovative" as it's given credit for? Nirvana (ugh...) and Smashing Pumpkins (ugh squared...) may have grabbed all the headlines, but the true godfathers of the genre were Soundgarden, and anyone with half an ear can tell they wouldn't exist if not for Black Sabbath.

Ditto Marilyn Manson, NIN and any other rocker who tried to scandalise the youth of America in the musical toilet bowl of the 90s. Did they really accomplish anything that Bowie, Alice and KISS didn't do better 20 years before?

This is why I lost interest in a lot of popular music after about 1990. Aside from the above-mentioned lack of originality (which in Soundgarden's case doesn't make them any less good, BTW), the whole attitude of rock changed. Suddenly it was "cool" to dress down, insult your audience by not playing your instrument properly or putting on a decent show and sell records by moaning about how depressed you are. That ain't my rock n' roll thank you, and apart from a few bands like The Donnas, the music scene hasn't fully recovered yet.

DD, who typed this whilst banging his head to Black Sabbath's "Headless Cross" \m/

[Dooku's Disciple]

And for the record, Chmee, Gene has never been in rehab nor will he need to. Unlike many rock gods before and after him, he doesn't drink, smoke or do drugs. Ever. Get your facts straight in future please.

DD