625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

AMP: sci-fi art, regular art, pictures, photos, comics, music, etc.

Moderator: Beowulf

Post Reply
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Frank Hipper »

This is my first attempt at scratchbuilding; carracks are a ship type perhaps nearer and dearer to my heart then even my beloved pre-dreadnoughts.

In the Conway's History Of The Ship volume "Cogs, Caravels, and Galleons", length and beam, among other dimensional tidbits, are given for a carrack listed in the Timbotta Manuscript, 140 feet by 38.6 feet.

This gives a length to beam ratio of roughly 3.6:1, a tad on the narrow side from what I've read about carracks, but it's exactly the ratio that Bjorn Landstrom gives in his book "The Ship" for a ship of 125 feet in the same manuscript.

The stempost is mentioned as being 51 feet above the keel, and 12 feet taller then the sternpost...I've been a little dismayed by the appearance of my work so far, the amount of freeboard seems extraordinary, but the height of the stem above the waterline scales out to 34 feet; guesstimation makes me think that 16 feet of draught is in the "acceptable" range...

Here's the Timbotta Manuscript illustration I'm using as my guide:
Image
The amount of curvature in the sheer strake seems excessive to me, too excessive; I'll be playing around with that.

Masting and rigging will be based on WA's "Kraeck" woodcut of circa 1468, with some free interpretation as needed/desired.

I began with seven layers of .020" Evergreen stock laminated together, and roughed some lower hull contours into it forming a raft.
Doubting the dimensions I mentioned above, went with a straightforward 3:1 length to beam ratio.
It didn't look "right", yet I persevered and began adding and shaping by eye some templated onto the raft.

It was looking even less satisfying.

I pared about .080" of beam off of my beginning, creating a very slab sided and awkward looking thing, with ratios more fitting for an 18th century frigate, so I re-introduced some beam in the form of slabs of .020" stock slapped to the sides, remembered that I didn't take into account the amount of overhang the stempost has in the overall length, so I removed the appropriate amount of stern, and went to work with the sandpaper to achieve this hull shape, up to the upper deck:
Image

Image

Image

A little forward motion with the fitting of the of the stern counter piece (correct term?) with the tiller opening:
Image

You can see where I've marked the locations for false ribs that will be visible; I'm only going a semi plank-on-frame route; it uses less plastic, mail order is my only source for Evergreen stock, and I'm impatient!
Image

Image

Image
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Tritio
Padawan Learner
Posts: 185
Joined: 2009-09-09 03:10am
Location: Singapore

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Tritio »

Awesome! I have an interest in Venetian history as well as model shipbuilding. What you are doing is something I'd very much like to try, although I'd probably start with something easier.

What kind of materials are you using for your ship? What is this 'Evergreen stock'?
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Frank Hipper »

Evergreen stock is a styrene plastic sheet. They make several different thicknesses, and several shapes.

It's much softer than the styrene you usually find in plastic kits, and is easy to work.

Their website.
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
Sky Captain
Jedi Master
Posts: 1267
Joined: 2008-11-14 12:47pm
Location: Latvia

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Sky Captain »

I don`t know much about historical ships, but if that illustration are to scale this type of ship seems to be seriously unstable. With stern and stem so high it would also have excessive windage making it impossible to sail windward.
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Frank Hipper »

Sky Captain wrote:I don`t know much about historical ships, but if that illustration are to scale this type of ship seems to be seriously unstable. With stern and stem so high it would also have excessive windage making it impossible to sail windward.
Carracks were notoriously bad sailers, especially later, more extreme versions with multi-decked forecastles.
A Portugese seaman, on seeing one of those 16th century types, is quoted, allegedly, as saying "May God have mercy on the man who built such a ship."...

Another Portugese account states that the ship in question was "rock-steady in all conditions", however.

Little update:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Frank Hipper »

One minute I'm on the verge of pitching this thing in the garbage, and the next I'm thinking I'm onto something... :|


Anyway, got the hull planked, the main deck painted, and some paint splashed on the hull to see which direction I might go with it...

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Frank Hipper »

Little bit of forward motion:

Attaching and shaping the sloped "weather deck" to the forecastle:
Image

Planking the gap:
Image

Starboard side:
Image

Planking "weather deck":
Image

Planking trimmed:
Image

Anchor tackle crosstimber in place, detail molding on weather deck, inboard stringers and wales attached:
Image

Another view:
Image

Trimming the quarter deck to size:
Image

Looking forward:
Image

Quarter deck with crossbeams faked in, companionway mounted, main deck cargo hatch cover being planked, and main deck windlass:
Image

Mmmmm, tiny:
Image
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Simplicius
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2031
Joined: 2006-01-27 06:07pm

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Simplicius »

The hull planking looks kind of rough, but the main deck looks great. The scale wood effect is really well done.
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Frank Hipper »

Simplicius wrote:The hull planking looks kind of rough...
It is.

Being my first scratchbuild, the learning curve is pretty steep. It honestly looks a little better IRL than it does in magnified photos.
Also, once the vertical fender strakes, chainwales, and an actual paint job are applied, the planking will either look better, or stand out like a turd in a punchbowl.

The very few 1/700th scale sailing ships I've seen done by other people normally use a solid hull; I didn't have the material to go that route, so I tried framing it. Attaching the different levels of wales first caused me untold grief, too.

Next time, next time, next time...next time will be better :P
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Frank Hipper »

So, I'm working on this thing again...my deadline is October 1st. Here's a phone pick showing progress.
Attachments
IMG_20110813_122723.jpg
IMG_20110813_122723.jpg (109.16 KiB) Viewed 9723 times
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Thanas
Magister
Magister
Posts: 30779
Joined: 2004-06-26 07:49pm

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Thanas »

Man. I just love Carracks.

Good luck on finishing it...can't wait to see it.
Whoever says "education does not matter" can try ignorance
------------
A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
------------
My LPs
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Havok »

Where are the turbo lasers?

Man, the patience to do that... Love projects like that. Looks fucking great Frank. Keep it up..
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Raesene
Jedi Master
Posts: 1341
Joined: 2006-09-09 01:56pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Raesene »

The fine work is amazing, could you post a size comparison picture ? A carrack model in 1/700 must be tiny.

"In view of the circumstances, Britannia waives the rules."

"All you have to do is to look at Northern Ireland, [...] to see how seriously the religious folks take "thou shall not kill. The more devout they are, the more they see murder as being negotiable." George Carlin

"We need to make gay people live in fear again! What ever happened to the traditional family values of persecution and lies?" - Darth Wong
"The closet got full and some homosexuals may have escaped onto the internet?"- Stormbringer

User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Frank Hipper »

Raesene wrote:The fine work is amazing, could you post a size comparison picture ? A carrack model in 1/700 must be tiny.
Here it is with a Bic lighter, Combrig's 1/700 kits of HMS Dreadnought and the Borodino class battleship Orel..it's about 5.3 centimeters long.

Thanks for the kind words, guys.
Attachments
IMG_20110815_232251.jpg
IMG_20110815_232251.jpg (406.01 KiB) Viewed 9576 times
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Looking good, that’s a lot bigger compared to the predreadnought then I was expecting, but then I have to keep reminding myself how stubby you can make a slow warship. Any chance you can rupload the image you are using as the basis for her again, it seems to have died on imageshack.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
ComradeClaus
BANNED
Posts: 294
Joined: 2011-07-12 05:16am
Location: Ossurary Gateworld, Corrupted Wilderness, Star Wars Galaxy. Serving her Divine Highness.
Contact:

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by ComradeClaus »

Stunning. It must take the hands of a surgeon to work with such small pieces. That's what I call art.

Do you think you might do a galley (bireme, trireme type) next?
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Frank Hipper »

Mr. Skimmer:
Image
I think I may have gone overboard in trying to "rationalise" the sketch, the sheer line especially.

ComradeClaus; I do indeed intend to do more early ships at some time. Lots of ideas, lots of choices. I'm partial to early Greek biremes and Roman heavy galleys, and would like to do a Renaisance war galley, as well.
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Havok »

What the hell... ? :lol:
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
Sea Skimmer
Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
Posts: 37390
Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
Location: Passchendaele City, HAB

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Frank Hipper wrote: I think I may have gone overboard in trying to "rationalise" the sketch, the sheer line especially.
Thanks. I dunno on going overboard, your ship looks still looks like something that could be built. I know the drawing styles back then tend to exaggerate... everything, but a massive shear does make some sense.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Havok »

That drawing is beyond exaggeration and is down right Escher-esque.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"
User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5196
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Sopron District, Hungary, Europe, Terra

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by LaCroix »

The model is pretty good. Apart from the fact that Carracks did not have a 'mirror', but a round stern, it is very well executed. You have a fine hand for these minor details that make a model look real.

I believe you used this image as reference, as the similarity is rather significant.
Image
I makes the stern look kind of 'squarish', but the round stern was a design trademark of the Carrack - the underwater hull was nearly symmetrical. The later models might have foreshadowed the emerging of the Galleon, but 1450, this was not the case, yet.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by Frank Hipper »

Actually La Croix, I've never seen that particular picture before, it's very useful for details of rigging.
One merciful thing about modeling a mediterranean ship of around 1450 is you don't have to deal with ratlines in the shrouds, they don't appear in depictions of southern shipping until the last decades of the 15th century.

Thanks! :D
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
LaCroix
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5196
Joined: 2004-12-21 12:14pm
Location: Sopron District, Hungary, Europe, Terra

Re: 625 ton Venetian Carrack circa 1450, in 1/700 scale

Post by LaCroix »

In that age, sails were uncomplicated enough (mostly just one sail per mast) to allow just lowering the spar to secure them, so no one needed them. Sailors used to just climb up the rigging if they needed to get up or used a rope ladder.

When the sails and spars became bigger, and more numerous, it was easier to just get up there to do stuff instead of hauling the thing up and down, so ratlines were done. Sailors still found them less convenient than the ropes for a long time...

http://books.google.de/books?id=eol1e_O ... &q&f=false
Has some nice sections on it (page 65ff), but in old German print. (You might be able to read it or find someone. - The book is fascinating - especially when he rants about how the depictions of artists can't be used as facts, citing examples, on page 42/43.)
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay

I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
Post Reply