New Automatic Weapon design

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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:OK, here we go again, genius that I am I have taken care of all this with my amazing design skills...

Ejection port - None, it fires caseless ammo. This is the future after all. It may well be electrically fired as well, I've been looking at the demos on metalstorm.com of his crazy electric guns and they are fearsome.

Sighting - Not on it yet, there'll be an electronic unit mounted high up on the tall section with iron sights cut through below it, they're just not there yet. I might yet change those 2 rail/handles for a solid mount rail/handle like the G36, we'll have to see what looks best. Anyone who's tried to use a Steyr Augs built in sights while wearing glasses or goggles will know exactly the problems you described, it's worse than useless, so mine are well up out the way.

Flash hider - is pretty much a straight copy of the current crop of H&K flash hiders, the slant means nowt as the sights are high anyway, but it might help keep the gun level as you say. The prongs are well thick, and if it's good enough for H7K, it's good enough for me. I doubt this is aa front-line weapon anyway, more a PDW as pointed out earlier.

Feed Mechanism and Mag design - again, this is the future. the mag is way longer than the bullets because the mag is also the power for the electric firing mechanism. The actual workings are mounted high over the breech, hence the height difference at the back if you look at the black metal parts. This gives us the aesthetically pleasing slant on the mag and space for feeder mechanisms to work. Slanting the mag the other way looks shit, and a flat one is boring. My way it looks nice and it works.

Cocking handle - This is meant to be an electronically controlled weapon so I'm in 2 minds about adding one. If I do it'll be mounted centrally on top of the exposed part of the mid-barrel area like the G36, so it can be used with any hand.

Bolt ons - not yet added a laser unit, bayonet mount or other goodies, although I think I will have to. The laser will come with the electronic sights I think, and the bayonet I'll have to look into. You're right though, almost all modern weapons still have a bayonet mount for morale reasons and I forgot all about it. I'll get right on it.

Still to add safety catch, fire select buttons, mag release buttons, sight controls and possible a digital rounds counter a la Aliens. Keep the ideas coming though, they do make me think a bit. Considering it's just to look nice for a competition there's a surprising amount of thought that has to go into these things dont you think? It's a shame I can't get to use it in real life, I'd like to see an airsoft version of this some day. I'd buy it.
No problems with the gun then :D
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: OK, here we go again, genius that I am I have taken care of all this with my amazing design skills...

Ejection port - None, it fires caseless ammo. This is the future after all. It may well be electrically fired as well, I've been looking at the demos on metalstorm.com of his crazy electric guns and they are fearsome.
I wasn't sure whether this was using ordinary ammo or not. On the MetalStorm front, Burning away all your ammo in a second is not much fun as it requires a mag change for every pull of the trigger. :P . Seriously, you want 2 to 2 rounds per target to kill them, not half a mag (remember you're guys have to carry the ammo).
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: Sighting - Not on it yet, there'll be an electronic unit mounted high up on the tall section with iron sights cut through below it, they're just not there yet. I might yet change those 2 rail/handles for a solid mount rail/handle like the G36, we'll have to see what looks best. Anyone who's tried to use a Steyr Augs built in sights while wearing glasses or goggles will know exactly the problems you described, it's worse than useless, so mine are well up out the way.
I wasn't sure how high up your sights were going to be (I thought maybe that back part was th front of the sight), but having it high up helps. You still need to have the Stock moved back though as right now you have a distance of about 2-3 inches between the end of the folded stock and the sights (you simply can't see them, to use them). For the carrying handle, make it hollow, so the sight see's straight through it, you could put a slight groove in the top and mount the Emergency Iron Sights along that.
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: Flash hider - is pretty much a straight copy of the current crop of H&K flash hiders, the slant means nowt as the sights are high anyway, but it might help keep the gun level as you say. The prongs are well thick, and if it's good enough for H7K, it's good enough for me. I doubt this is aa front-line weapon anyway, more a PDW as pointed out earlier.
Actually the rifle G36 has a Ring at the end and no slant. Unless your going down the road of soviet military doctrine (high volume of fire, no aiming, firing from the hip whilst running), there is no need for that slant and the flame from it will blind your sight as it will be about 1 foot in length and that's ertainly long enough to get in the way of your sight!
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: Feed Mechanism and Mag design - again, this is the future. the mag is way longer than the bullets because the mag is also the power for the electric firing mechanism. The actual workings are mounted high over the breech, hence the height difference at the back if you look at the black metal parts. This gives us the aesthetically pleasing slant on the mag and space for feeder mechanisms to work. Slanting the mag the other way looks shit, and a flat one is boring. My way it looks nice and it works.
Yes, but how are you physivcally feeding a round into the breech? Unless you are firing the round from the top of the mag (with the top of each mag containing the breech), you need a physical system to move the rounds, and the only way you can do it reliably is Gas-blowback in a small system like a rifle. That means that the bolt must move back behind the mag to pick up a new round and feed it forwards. There's no room in you design for this. You can do it, but you still need more room at the back for a return spring.

If you are doing the Breech as the top of the mag (needed to isolate the rounds underneath from the heat of combustion - especially your caseless rounds) then how are you controlling the opening to feed n a new round, you're back to needing a gas-blowback mechanism and return spring somewhere in the design.
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: Cocking handle - This is meant to be an electronically controlled weapon so I'm in 2 minds about adding one. If I do it'll be mounted centrally on top of the exposed part of the mid-barrel area like the G36, so it can be used with any hand.
You need something to feed in the first round, it doesn't magically feed itself. :P And again even with a 'breech on the top of the mag' design, you need a cocking handle to manually remove misfires or damaged rounds (also another reason for having an ejection port, and why Caseless rounds don't really catch on - you can't clear a stoppage without removing the whole mag and fiddling around with it). The FAMAS has a Cocking handle on the top unde the Carrying handle that can be used by ether hand, which is why I suggested it.
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: Bolt ons - not yet added a laser unit, bayonet mount or other goodies, although I think I will have to. The laser will come with the electronic sights I think, and the bayonet I'll have to look into. You're right though, almost all modern weapons still have a bayonet mount for morale reasons and I forgot all about it. I'll get right on it.
What's the unit above the foregrip then? And what does the foregrip button do?
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: Still to add safety catch, fire select buttons, mag release buttons, sight controls and possible a digital rounds counter a la Aliens. Keep the ideas coming though, they do make me think a bit. Considering it's just to look nice for a competition there's a surprising amount of thought that has to go into these things dont you think? It's a shame I can't get to use it in real life, I'd like to see an airsoft version of this some day. I'd buy it.
Make the safety catch a thunb switch like on a pistol(rather than the push through button like on the SA-80) it just works better and faster. Have it mounted on the pistol-grip level with the trigger, so the thumb rests on it naturally, then above the thunbhole you could mount the Fire selector (3rd or semi), so you just need to pull your thumb up and back a bit to engage it.
Because of the placement of the mag (way to the rear, and hidden under bodywork0) it'll be awkward to get your free hand to and still hold the mag when it's released if you use a button on the body (plus you have to make the button work from both sides for ambidextrous use), so why not use a lever forward of the magazine well, like on the FAL FN, works from both sides, rememberyou make it so the lever moves towards the mag to release it.
And I still don't see how making the base of the mag slant the wrong way will make it work better. :P
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: Feed Mechanism and Mag design - again, this is the future. the mag is way longer than the bullets because the mag is also the power for the electric firing mechanism. The actual workings are mounted high over the breech, hence the height difference at the back if you look at the black metal parts.
Regarding the Battery in the mags, you're better off with the battery for firing the rounds being in the rifle, as otherwise you're just increasing the per mag wieght the soldeirs have to lug around for no real benefit. Instead of the weight of 8 batteries to go with his 8 mags, he could carry 12 mags and 2 spare batteries for his rifle (plus by aking the mags less bulky, you carry more of them).
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Post by weemadando »

Sea Skimmer wrote:Metalstorm sucks shit. In addition to its ability to waste ammunition faster then a minigun crewed by chimps, do you really want a gun in which reloading requires a barrel change?
Damnit man - have you actually ever looked at the demonstrations of MetalStorm pistols and other PDWs?

It takes the SAME amount of time and effort to reload one of them as it does a standard automatic. Its just a different process.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

weemadando wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Metalstorm sucks shit. In addition to its ability to waste ammunition faster then a minigun crewed by chimps, do you really want a gun in which reloading requires a barrel change?
Damnit man - have you actually ever looked at the demonstrations of MetalStorm pistols and other PDWs?

It takes the SAME amount of time and effort to reload one of them as it does a standard automatic. Its just a different process.
From what I can tell from here the Barrels are changed instead of the Mags, and indeed take no more time than an ordinary mag change. With the battery stored in the pistol grip.
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Post by Kenny_10_Bellys »

There's no doubt metalstorm are on to something, but I'm pretty fuckin sure i wouldn't want to heave around a load of barrels pre-loaded with bullets. Lets say there's a tiny flaw in their design, but the principle of electronically fired and controlled caseless ammo is sound and that the intricacies will be conquered in a few years time. Voila! You can't argue with that rate of fire, and with a burst fire mode on it then we've got a serious bit of kit. No double taps with a gun firing a gazillion rounds a minute without electronics, you'd cut someone to pieces trying.

As for the loading/blowback mechanism, if we assume the mag is almost twice as long as it needs to be (Z-axis) then there's a couple of inches for whatever magical system we invent in the next 30 or so years. I'm thinking a power system may be needed in the mag as well as the gun to power whatever feeds the system, or to assist with loading or firing. I don't think it'd be too much of a weight gain, and this isn't a front-line weapon remember, but an esoteric CQB one.

I was thinking of either a rotating selector like the current H&K weapons that's both safety, semi and full at the flick of a thumb, or a flat sliding switch which you push in and forward to select safe-semi-burst-full. Having it pistol style means the weapon is no longer ambidextrous, or you've got a switch pissing you off where you dont need it. As for the trigger for the laser it will activate a laser but it may well be mounted high up in line with the scope, or I'll cut it in near the muzzle, I've not decided yet. I have to check the aesthetics as well as the technical accuracy :D
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Post by weemadando »

I like MetalStorm, but only for certain things. Pistols and PDWs being two of them. High rate of fire, a lot of ammo for the weight and excellent reliability.

The other thing I like them for are their area-denial and point defense systems. Mmmmm... 40mm goodness at 1,000,000 rounds a minute.
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Post by Howedar »

Metalstorm is interesting and amusing, but for the most part useless.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: As for the loading/blowback mechanism, if we assume the mag is almost twice as long as it needs to be (Z-axis) then there's a couple of inches for whatever magical system we invent in the next 30 or so years. I'm thinking a power system may be needed in the mag as well as the gun to power whatever feeds the system, or to assist with loading or firing. I don't think it'd be too much of a weight gain, and this isn't a front-line weapon remember, but an esoteric CQB one.
True, but having the feed mechanism in the mag means that, rather than having one robust system per weapon, you have one tiny system per Mag (and mags get knocked around a lot, in day to day use). You can, however, have your cake and eat it. If you are having electronically fired rounds, then the bolt assembly is largely unnecessary, you can have a top mounted, twin-rail system ending in a flat back with a round extractor on its base like so, where the rear peg on the back piece is the attachment for the recoil/return spring. You still need some space at the rear for the springs otherwise you have no mechanism for absorbing recoil (and remember without the weight of the Bolt, the spring needs to be thicker than normal to soak the recoil effectively).
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:I was thinking of either a rotating selector like the current H&K weapons that's both safety, semi and full at the flick of a thumb, or a flat sliding switch which you push in and forward to select safe-semi-burst-full. Having it pistol style means the weapon is no longer ambidextrous, or you've got a switch pissing you off where you dont need it. As for the trigger for the laser it will activate a laser but it may well be mounted high up in line with the scope, or I'll cut it in near the muzzle, I've not decided yet. I have to check the aesthetics as well as the technical accuracy :D
Well you still have to make the fire selector ambidextrous anyway, and having the safety seperate makes for a faster shoot (there are some situations - CQB especially where you want the safety on as you patrol but you don't want to have to keep playing round with the fire selector after reengaging your safety). And having used the Thumb safety lever and thumb safety button methods i know which one I prefer for shooting.
Last edited by Rob Wilson on 2003-03-09 07:30pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

weemadando wrote: The other thing I like them for are their area-denial and point defense systems. Mmmmm... 40mm goodness at 1,000,000 rounds a minute.
Of which 95% of your rounds are wasted unfortunately. :roll:
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Post by Kenny_10_Bellys »

Yeah, but that sentry gun, 1 million rounds a minute! You can't argue with that. The guy had a vision, and it was pretty much just humungous rates of fire, then he ran with it. Fair enough I suppose...

Anyway, back to the job in hand. To keep the grumps happy I have spun the flash hider around and added an RIS rail and iron sights as promised, well above the stock area. I've also indicated where I intend to put stuff when I get time tomorrow. Not sure about the display, but it would be a nice sci-fi touch. I don't want to be seen to be robbing too many design elements from cool guns, this thing is half P90, half G36 as it is. One idea that is my own is to mount the laser unit under the RIS rail at the front, then have it shoot through a small hole in the RIS support. I'll run a wire to it from the front trigger and then it's all neat and out of the way. It doesn't spoil the lines at the front and doesn't take up space on the rail.

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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:Yeah, but that sentry gun, 1 million rounds a minute! You can't argue with that. The guy had a vision, and it was pretty much just humungous rates of fire, then he ran with it. Fair enough I suppose...

Anyway, back to the job in hand. To keep the grumps happy I have spun the flash hider around and added an RIS rail and iron sights as promised, well above the stock area. I've also indicated where I intend to put stuff when I get time tomorrow. Not sure about the display, but it would be a nice sci-fi touch. I don't want to be seen to be robbing too many design elements from cool guns, this thing is half P90, half G36 as it is. One idea that is my own is to mount the laser unit under the RIS rail at the front, then have it shoot through a small hole in the RIS support. I'll run a wire to it from the front trigger and then it's all neat and out of the way. It doesn't spoil the lines at the front and doesn't take up space on the rail.

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It's a southpaw/ambi rifle? I noticed the display and the safety were on the right side, right where a lefty-shooter's thumb would be.

GREAT touch with that picatinny rail on the top. I wonder if there'll be a long-barreled sniper version? (Or am I suggesting a role that this rifle is the antithesis of? LOL)

EDIT: BTW I'm a lefty, but I shoot rifles right-handed. Pistols I could probly shoot either way (I'll find out and train like that when I get one)
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:Yeah, but that sentry gun, 1 million rounds a minute! You can't argue with that. The guy had a vision, and it was pretty much just humungous rates of fire, then he ran with it. Fair enough I suppose...

Anyway, back to the job in hand. To keep the grumps happy I have spun the flash hider around
So it now pushes the barrel up. :twisted: Seriously, if you are hidebound and determined to put a slant on the muzzle then why not have it end flat and then put a V notch in the end so the gases go to the sides and you still have a distinctive end to the weapon.
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:and added an RIS rail and iron sights as promised, well above the stock area. I've also indicated where I intend to put stuff when I get time tomorrow. Not sure about the display, but it would be a nice sci-fi touch. I don't want to be seen to be robbing too many design elements from cool guns, this thing is half P90, half G36 as it is.
I thought it would make more sense to have the display as part of your sight, on the side of the weapon is no good to you and only tells everyone else what your ammo state is on that mag.
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: One idea that is my own is to mount the laser unit under the RIS rail at the front, then have it shoot through a small hole in the RIS support. I'll run a wire to it from the front trigger and then it's all neat and out of the way. It doesn't spoil the lines at the front and doesn't take up space on the rail.
Well I thought you were mounting in in the Front raised hump (what is in there anyway, the Gas bleed system can't take up that much room?) where it would be protected and completely inline with the barrel (plus you don't need to put in exposed wires).

Sidenote : in the time it took me to produce this, you produced this. Sigh, my feeble skills cruelly shown up again. :D
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Post by Kenny_10_Bellys »

Einhander, it's meant to be as ambidextrous as possible, I'll mirror everything that I can, except the display. It takes a pretty concious act to check out the display as it's on the side, so i don't think it matters what side it's on. When you think about it the bullet count display is a godsend for a design like this, it doesn't have a transparent mag and you couldn't see how many were left anyway after you'd fired the first five. I think it's handy enough to warrant inclusion, it certainly doesn't do any harm and it might do good.

The flash hider can stay as it is, i like the slant and if we assume this thing is burst firing like a G11 then it's not going to raise significantly at all during normal use. That's the whole idea behind the high rate of fire burst; surer kills and more shots on target before the gun moves. Consider it a design element I work in to all my guns, it's just this is the first I've made so you've not noticed that yet :D

I don't like the idea of mounting the laser in that forward unit, I assume there's some fancy gas stuff going on there and it'd spoil the lines too. Under the rail it's still right in the centre of the gun, it's out of the way but easily accessable and it doesn't have to have a visible wire, it just makes the mesh look more real if I add organic looking asymmetric things like that. Don't worry about showing me the workings of the receiver, I understand how it works in principle and there's enough room in the rear of this for it to work, honest. And don't feel bad about the drawing, you didn't spend 16 hours making a model for it first, so I had a head start.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: It takes a pretty concious act to check out the display as it's on the side, so i don't think it matters what side it's on. When you think about it the bullet count display is a godsend for a design like this, it doesn't have a transparent mag and you couldn't see how many were left anyway after you'd fired the first five. I think it's handy enough to warrant inclusion, it certainly doesn't do any harm and it might do good.
Which is why it should be in the sight or just below it, so you predicate the user to always keep the weapon in the aim and to be looking forward at his arcs. Just having the panel slightly below the sight on the back would be a huge improvement, though the light it gives off would be a problem, even a very dim LED can give off a significant glow in a zero-ambiant light environment (such as inside a darkened building).
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: The flash hider can stay as it is, i like the slant and if we assume this thing is burst firing like a G11 then it's not going to raise significantly at all during normal use. That's the whole idea behind the high rate of fire burst; surer kills and more shots on target before the gun moves. Consider it a design element I work in to all my guns, it's just this is the first I've made so you've not noticed that yet :D
Fair enough, that's just me being pedantic anyway. :P , You'll have to watch out for the dust clouds it'll throw up if used in the prone position though.
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: I don't like the idea of mounting the laser in that forward unit, I assume there's some fancy gas stuff going on there and it'd spoil the lines too.
Actually the gas system is very simple, the most complicated part is the rotary wheel that allows the offest openings in the Gas plug to be moved around (and that's not really difficult. Wads of room in there for 2 laser sights and small marching band. :D
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: Under the rail it's still right in the centre of the gun, it's out of the way but easily accessable and it doesn't have to have a visible wire, it just makes the mesh look more real if I add organic looking asymmetric things like that. Don't worry about showing me the workings of the receiver, I understand how it works in principle and there's enough room in the rear of this for it to work, honest. And don't feel bad about the drawing, you didn't spend 16 hours making a model for it first, so I had a head start.
Just doesn't seem like enough room for the return spring/recoil absorbtion. And it was easier to draw it than simply explain it nd hve everyone getting different pictures in their heads. :wink:
Last edited by Rob Wilson on 2003-03-09 09:17pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Rob Wilson wrote:
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote: I don't like the idea of mounting the laser in that forward unit, I assume there's some fancy gas stuff going on there and it'd spoil the lines too.
Actually the gas system is very simple, the most complicated part is the rotary wheel that allows the offest openings in the Gas plug to be moved around (and tht's not really difficult. Wads of room in there for 2 laser sights and small marching band. :D
Here's the Gas plug concept i was thinking of, showing how it would work. Note I can't draw th raised ridges on the thumbwheel that well. :( The 'H' is meant ro be in a recessed hollow, the 'L' would be Raised, so you could tell the difference in the dark or without looking, obviously it would be a positive lock system, so you can feel thm engage in their positions as the thumbwheel rotates.
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Post by Beowulf »

Could you try making the magazine shorter, and then slightly lengthen the rear of the gun? It would give the required length for the action to operate. The recoil spring doesn't necessarily have to be behind the bolt, it could be alongside, which means it doesn't have to have the extra length behind the bolt. Also, the buttstock should have a cut out in the slide, more of a pair of rails, than a single piece. Otherwise the buttstock will interfere with the action of the weapon by covering up the magazine well...
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Beowulf wrote:Could you try making the magazine shorter, and then slightly lengthen the rear of the gun? It would give the required length for the action to operate. The recoil spring doesn't necessarily have to be behind the bolt, it could be alongside, which means it doesn't have to have the extra length behind the bolt. Also, the buttstock should have a cut out in the slide, more of a pair of rails, than a single piece. Otherwise the buttstock will interfere with the action of the weapon by covering up the magazine well...
Having the spring alongside would require it to work by expansion not compression surely. That's just too prone to failure and the spring would slowly lose it's shape. (Unless you can better describe it and it's working in some other fashion).
I thought the butt extended using a hollow tube, like a sleeve that would go around the space of the working parts.
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Post by Beowulf »

Rob Wilson wrote: Having the spring alongside would require it to work by expansion not compression surely. That's just too prone to failure and the spring would slowly lose it's shape. (Unless you can better describe it and it's working in some other fashion).
I thought the butt extended using a hollow tube, like a sleeve that would go around the space of the working parts.
It still works by compression. It'd require a thick weapon than one in which the spring was behind the bolt though. An example of what I'm thinking of is the Steyr AUG. Basically the bolt carrier has a pair of tube attached to it. Inside of the tubes are the springs. The springs fit over a pair of rods to keep them in the proper shape.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Beowulf wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote: Having the spring alongside would require it to work by expansion not compression surely. That's just too prone to failure and the spring would slowly lose it's shape. (Unless you can better describe it and it's working in some other fashion).
I thought the butt extended using a hollow tube, like a sleeve that would go around the space of the working parts.
It still works by compression. It'd require a thick weapon than one in which the spring was behind the bolt though. An example of what I'm thinking of is the Steyr AUG. Basically the bolt carrier has a pair of tube attached to it. Inside of the tubes are the springs. The springs fit over a pair of rods to keep them in the proper shape.
Oh I know about that one, but it requires the Bolt, to exist to move against the Springs, and we don't have room behind the mags for bolt (hence my flat design for Kenny), with the whole rail assembly moving back. But I do have a solution. This has a locking arm that holds the Breech cover shut, the Gas piston moving back unlocks it, this allows the whole assembly to move back in recoil when it is hit by the piston. By having the cocking handle seperate we can have it not move constantly as you fire and the cut out at it's bottom allows it to also unlock the Locking arm without getting hit by the piston during firing. The small vertical lines are meant to be the spring both under compression and also opened out.This should work and allows the breech to be locked closed during firing and it's the action of the gas blowback or the cocking handle that unlocks it. My crude drawing might not show the details properly (the sidebar from th locking arm that the cocking handle engages, rather than the slanted front that the Gas Piston hits for example) but it should work. The only problem is that the Main assembly would be the devil to extract and clean. The gas parts would be easy enough, but the twin rails and Breech cover (round extrator/feeder) would have to be mounted in presicion holes to ensure they work properly. Anyway, I'm sure someone else can think up some way to do it, it's 06:47 here and my head is not good for thinking. :D

ADDENDUM : Added a legend to the picture to make it easier to understand, and follow, the text description. :wink:
Last edited by Rob Wilson on 2003-03-10 04:28am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Beowulf »

Rob Wilson wrote:
Oh I know about that one, but it requires the Bolt, to exist to move against the Springs, and we don't have room behind the mags for bolt (hence my flat design for Kenny), with the whole rail assembly moving back.
Hence my suggestion for shortening the mag slightly and adding a bit of space after the mag. 2 inches should be enough to get an ok bol and carrier assembly. Anyway, as is, there isn't any room for a hammer assembly...
But I do have a solution. This has a locking arm that holds the Breech cover shut, the Gas piston moving back unlocks it, this allows the whole assembly to move back in recoil when it is hit by the piston.By having the cocking handle seperate we can have it not move constantly as you fire and the cut out at it's bottom allows it to also unlock the Locking arm without getting hit by the piston during firing. The small vertical lines are meant to be the spring both under compression and also opened out.This should work and allows the breech to be locked closed during firing and it's the action of the gas blowback or the cocking handle that unlocks it. My crude drawing might not show the details properly (the sidebar from th locking arm that the cocking handle engages, rather than the slanted front that the Gas Piston hits for example) but it should work. The only problem is that the Main assembly would be the devil to extract and clean. The gas parts would be easy enough, but the twin rails and Breech cover (round extrator/feeder) would have to be mounted in presicion holes to ensure they work properly.
Seems overly complicated. My solution is mechanically simpler, and similar to existing rifle designs. Also, as you noted, that would be a pain in the ass to clean. A sudden flash of inspiration just hit me. Have the operation of the breech cover be electrically operated. As a bonus, you'd get a electronically controlled variable rate of fire.
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Beowulf wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:
Oh I know about that one, but it requires the Bolt, to exist to move against the Springs, and we don't have room behind the mags for bolt (hence my flat design for Kenny), with the whole rail assembly moving back.
Hence my suggestion for shortening the mag slightly and adding a bit of space after the mag. 2 inches should be enough to get an ok bol and carrier assembly. Anyway, as is, there isn't any room for a hammer assembly...
Except the rounds are ignited electronically, so you don't need a bolt or hammer/firing pin. And Two inches for a Bolt and Carrier assembly?!
Beowulf wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote: But I do have a solution. This has a locking arm that holds the Breech cover shut, the Gas piston moving back unlocks it, this allows the whole assembly to move back in recoil when it is hit by the piston.By having the cocking handle seperate we can have it not move constantly as you fire and the cut out at it's bottom allows it to also unlock the Locking arm without getting hit by the piston during firing. The small vertical lines are meant to be the spring both under compression and also opened out.This should work and allows the breech to be locked closed during firing and it's the action of the gas blowback or the cocking handle that unlocks it. My crude drawing might not show the details properly (the sidebar from th locking arm that the cocking handle engages, rather than the slanted front that the Gas Piston hits for example) but it should work. The only problem is that the Main assembly would be the devil to extract and clean. The gas parts would be easy enough, but the twin rails and Breech cover (round extrator/feeder) would have to be mounted in presicion holes to ensure they work properly.
Seems overly complicated. My solution is mechanically simpler, and similar to existing rifle designs. Also, as you noted, that would be a pain in the ass to clean. A sudden flash of inspiration just hit me. Have the operation of the breech cover be electrically operated. As a bonus, you'd get a electronically controlled variable rate of fire.
Actually that solution is no more complicated than normal systems, it even has less parts than most, and is less prone to stoppages. The Gas parts are the same as that of the M-16/SA-80/damn near every assault rifle of the Western world. The Seperate cocking handle is used in FN's, Sig's, and H&K's (though most are side mounted), the locking arm is there because the normal way of locking the breech (using a rotary bolt, with locking lugs and having it unlock by a guide pin riding in a cutout of the Bolt Carrier assembly) wan't available here as there is no bolt or Bolt Carrier. The Twin Rails are simply reversed from how they are normally sited in most assault rifles, and the only bit it would be hard to clean is the rails themselves, and they can be cleaned in situ if necessary. If you better knew the mechanism of how rifles worked, you'd realise just how much simpler the one I drew and talked through was! Think about everything that has to move and work for a normal rifle to fire a round, then think of how fewer parts and operations this has.

And Electronically controlling the rate of fire would be even more complicated than the normal system, let alone the one I proposed. :P
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

weemadando wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:Metalstorm sucks shit. In addition to its ability to waste ammunition faster then a minigun crewed by chimps, do you really want a gun in which reloading requires a barrel change?
Damnit man - have you actually ever looked at the demonstrations of MetalStorm pistols and other PDWs?

It takes the SAME amount of time and effort to reload one of them as it does a standard automatic. Its just a different process.
Yeah actually, and I've also seen videos on it and browsed web sites. I remain convinced it has no place on a battlefield or anywhere else. Perhaps competitions might find a use.
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Post by Kenny_10_Bellys »

Easy kids, there's room in the world for more than one firing system, indeed I've invented my own here based on the metalstorm nonsense. This is supposed to be a near future weapon, more advanced in materials and electronics than todays combat weapons, so I've assumed the problems surrounding electronically fired and controlled caseless ammo have been pretty much ironed out and the extra complexities are nothing to late 21st century techs. Our current weapons are far more complex in design than those used centuries past, but we put up with them ok. This also lets me have a compact design with few moving parts and fancy stuff like round counters and selectable rapid burst firing.

As mentioned previously I made space above the breech for any fancy workings that might be need for such a system, although I have little idea what they might actually be. You'll notice it's twice the depth of the rest of the weapon, and there should be plenty of space to play with. As for the space issue at the back, I could shorten the uncommonly wide mag and that would give 2 or 3 inches at the rear, but as I keep saying there's no need as the mag is way longer than the rounds it holds anyway. I assumed the mag did more than simply hold the rounds, it might also power the weapons or the mag feed system.

The stock itself is basically just an MP5 unit slightly reshaped, the 2 arms having a groove down the middle to guide them as they run between the main weapon body and the upper cowling itself. It doesn't foul anywhere, it's made to fit neatly into the bulge running along the side of the upper cowling and doesn't in any way impede on the main weapons structure. Having some little experience with these things, I have already added a notch where the release switch engages, if you look closely at the workshop scene picture you'll notice it on the right hand rail underside.

Rob, are you suggesting I fit a rotating thumbwheel to the forward section for gas flow? On top?
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Post by Pcm979 »

I'm in the unfortunate position here of having my eyes glaze over inbetween the pretty pictures. :D But it looks freaking good, Kenny.
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