Disturbing 40k Dorama (NSFW)

[Eternal_Freedom]

Thanas, that was bitingly cruel. Good work

On a serious note, as I said above, awesome diorama. If anything, adds to the GRIMDARK by showing the humans are just as morally evil (by today's standards) as the foul xeno's they're exterminating

[fgalkin]

I don't see how getting raped and killed is significantly worse than the alternative of being tortured for information.

I was going to explain how you're wrong (or that one does not preclude the other), but then I realized the sheer depths of your callousness, depravity, and general attitude of not-giving a shit about anyone or anything. So, I won't bother since you're so self-absorbed you will ignore me like the annoying buzzing of some insect.

I would be worried if you actually had a shred of intelligence. Fortunately, you're also dumber than a sack of potatoes, so when you graduate from college your parents paid for, this attitude will either be kicked out of you by the world, or you will be stuck flipping burgers for the rest of your life.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Edi]

It counterpoints in very visceral manner the normal chest thumping and glorification that goes with 40K fluff, all those brave guardsmen fighting and dying to protect the emperor and yet here you have it, Imperiums heroes about to a commit horrible act on a defenseless woman.

I would hardly call an Eldar warrior defenseless. She got beaten in a battle fair and square.

And that excuses anything? Either the point is flying so far above your head you can't even see it or you don't have any qualms about rape, which is kind of what some of your other posts seem to indicate.

I'm going to interpret this in your favor this time. This is the final warning you're going to get. If you ever get into shit over this sort of topic again in a similar manner, you will be booted the fuck out of this forum without warning so fast your head will spin.

[AniThyng]

Thanas, that was bitingly cruel. Good work

On a serious note, as I said above, awesome diorama. If anything, adds to the GRIMDARK by showing the humans are just as morally evil (by today's standards) as the foul xeno's they're exterminating

Maybe a minor and moot point, but as been pointed out earlier already one must have a somewhat naive view of warfare if one thinks that this isn't already a grim reality on real battlefields throughout history already, even by soldiers of armies affiliated to nations far more enlightened then the fictitious grimdark Imperium of Man... guess this says something about the human condition far more than it says about WH40K.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh I know stuff like this happens. I meant that it is effective as a diorama because it reminds everybody it happens, that the Guard aren't all high-and-mighty. As for "naive view of warfare," you're right, which I imagine a lot of younger 40Kers would have

[fgalkin]

Oh I know stuff like this happens. I meant that it is effective as a diorama because it reminds everybody it happens, that the Guard aren't all high-and-mighty. As for "naive view of warfare," you're right, which I imagine a lot of younger 40Kers would have

Yes, except for things like this, which are official, get no complaints, and win contests:


And also appear in Soulstorm.

What do the people outraged by this think of the presence of the slavegirls on the Dais of Destruction? Apparently, implied rape is just a-ok, but anything more explicit isn't.

The hypocrisy really is outstanding. But, like I said, GW itself is to blame.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[AniThyng]

I suppose people class it on vaguely the same level as slave girl leia, which did not to my recollection cause ROTJ to be rated R.

I didn't know of this unit before (stopped at Dark Crusade then went on to DoW2, never played SoulStorm). That's another interesting comment on the line between merely implied and actually shown (refer back to comments on Civilization (or total war games for that matter) and how the sacking of cities is handled. )

[fgalkin]

Technically, the Diorama did not show the rape either. It's just degrees of implication, which is what strikes me as odd.

My opinion on the piece would have probably been different had it shown a guardsman between her legs, but as it currently stands, the only problem with it is the hypocrisy of the haters and GW's ridiculous double standard.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Ryan Thunder]

Easy. Asdrubael Vect is an alien. Aliens do heinous things.

Humans don't. :v

[Darth Raptor]

What hypocrisy? Whenever WH40k is taken seriously it's an abominable pile of shit, a hopelessly misanthropic mess of gothic smellyboy garbage, with all the maturity and artistic depth of a heavy metal album cover. I can only ever tolerate it when it's either played for laughs directly or being parodied. When it's not, it represents to me the desperate, cloying hope that somehow, douchebag manly men who can only interact with their enviroment by fucking it or punching it won't be extinct in two hundred years.

The diorama just strikes me as being in poor taste, and I have a really hard time believing that it's not supposed to be titillating. If it's actually here to stick it to those "serious" (God) WH40k fans, who wank off to how brutal and hardcore and masculine their setting is, then whatevs.

[AniThyng]

What hypocrisy? Whenever WH40k is taken seriously it's an abominable pile of shit, a hopelessly misanthropic mess of gothic smellyboy garbage, with all the maturity and artistic depth of a heavy metal album cover. I can only ever tolerate it when it's either played for laughs directly or being parodied. When it's not, it represents to me the desperate, cloying hope that somehow, douchebag manly men who can only interact with their enviroment by fucking it or punching it won't be extinct in two hundred years.

The diorama just strikes me as being in poor taste, and I have a really hard time believing that it's not supposed to be titillating. If it's actually here to stick it to those "serious" (God) WH40k fans, who wank off to how brutal and hardcore and masculine their setting is, then whatevs.

More power to you if you do decry consistently violence in media, be it sexualized or "merely" non-sexual violence then. Usually it's mocked from the hysterical "think of the children" angle though, for some reason. The hypocrisy is pretty clearly from people who would not have a problem with other sorts of gore and extreme violence but suddenly go apeshit over a implied rape depiction.

[Darth Raptor]

You're giving me far too much credit. I just think the diorama is ugly and depressing. Kind of like the rest of WH40k when GW forgets to keep their collective tongue in their collective cheek. This is less "think of the children" for me than it is "think of the women". I've only ever encountered one (1) female fan of WH40k, and it's telling that she's in it for the Tyranids. I look at this diorama (and much of the setting it's from) and I see an anachronistic monument to misogyny. Look at it, a powerful woman being brought low in a game that has been and always will be* the exclusive domain of big manly men. Look how she's about to be punished for picking up a weapon and thinking it could possibly compensate for her lack of penis. Why aren't they about to rape an Eldar man (they're sure as shit prettier than the uggos a Guardsman sees every day) or a displaced child (to really drive home the FMJ reference)? My problem with this diorama is I think I know why. This isn't about the horrors of war, this is about the horrors of Manly Men, legacy throwbacks to our evolutionary past that settings like WH40k champion as indispensible pillars of society.

*In the mind of the Axe-bathing, Dorrito-munching, Red Bull-swilling Ecks Bawks boy.

[fgalkin]

Really? For me, 40k had always been about humanity's struggle against impossible odds, surviving only at the cost of great sacrifices, fighting for a cause that is probably futile (even though I know that yes, nothing will happen in the universe because GW isn't going to cut into its profits blahblah). We must be fans of a different setting.

As for why it's a woman and not an Eldar man? For the same reason that people think that prison rape is hilarious- it just doesn't have the impact. Look how it made you go on about how misogynistic and anachronistic 40k is (despite the fact that there is a whole faction of armed women), or how the Eldar is about to be "punished for picking up a weapon and thinking it could possibly compensate for her lack of penis."

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Norade]

Also, if you showed four women raping an Eldar man I'd be more inclined to see that as some twisted fap material because it would be damned out of the ordinary.

[The Yosemite Bear]

usually guardians carry retrieved shuriken catapult rounds for last ditch self defense as per the fluff, it should be noted that ALL Dire Avengers, and other Aspect warriors carry mono-weapons just for such situations.... (though a Banshee would probably just sing and the IG would be so paralyzed with primal flight instinct....)

[The Yosemite Bear]

also being a fan of Boris' artwork I've wanted to create a "True Scale" Space Wolf as a defender of humanity using those slave girls in the exact same pose as Conan the Liberator...

ok, so even if we go back, it's not exactly as if GW invented this, it's been around but hinted at since the 1920s.... (ok most Victorian Porn involved sultans and slave girls too)

[Gullible Jones]

Well that was disgusting and enraging. But I don't see why it isn't par for the course for 40K. I mean, this is the only major SF universe nihilistic enough to make evangelical Christianity look fun. If 40K were a religion, we'd all be doomed.

(Keeping in mind that the more I've looked into 40K, the more the whole thing has disgusted and enraged me. So take what I say with a grain of salt.)

[Sinewmire]

You're giving me far too much credit. I just think the diorama is ugly and depressing.

Absolutely, that's the point.

I've only ever encountered one (1) female fan of WH40k, and it's telling that she's in it for the Tyranids.

I've known a fair few, they've been in it for Slaanesh, Eldar and Sisters of battle. It's true you don't often see women at the stores, but I think that's at least partly because of the males you see there.

I look at this diorama (and much of the setting it's from) and I see an anachronistic monument to misogyny. Look at it, a powerful woman being brought low in a game that has been and always will be* the exclusive domain of big manly men. Look how she's about to be punished for picking up a weapon and thinking it could possibly compensate for her lack of penis.

You think we're supposed to identify with the vacant-eyed sneering guardsmen, as opposed to the vulnerable female soldier? She's being punished for being female in a warzone, as thousands* of women are every year. It's not a monument to misogyny, it's a harsh reality check. I don't think anyone would send a squad of Adepta Sororitas into a suicidal charge with Kharn the Betrayer becuase they want to see the bitches get what's coming to them, as you seem to be suggesting.

Why aren't they about to rape an Eldar man (they're sure as shit prettier than the uggos a Guardsman sees every day) or a displaced child (to really drive home the FMJ reference)?

Well covered in other posts. Plus it wouldn't neccesarily be so obvious they're going to rape him.

My problem with this diorama is I think I know why. This isn't about the horrors of war, this is about the horrors of Manly Men, legacy throwbacks to our evolutionary past that settings like WH40k champion as indispensible pillars of society.

They what? Didn't you notice that the Imperium is a festering pile of shit, largely because a Manly Man refused to hand over the rulership from soldiers to civilians, and that the authoritarian fascist society is riddled with corruption and pointless cruelty? Who in their right mind would think the Imperium's choice of heroes and exemplars even slightly sane? Hell, even Gaunt's Ghosts aren't much made welcome when they become temporarily part of society, being restricted to well-enforced specific areas like sailors at a port.

*I'll admit, I haven't looked up the statistics. It could be millions.

[Big Orange]

This is sadly quite realistic and a real slap in the face. The Imperium of Man are pretty much bad guys themselves, easily worse than the Galactic Empire, but they're just completely outshined in surreal, omnicidal awfulness by Chaos, the Tyranids, and the C'Tan, etc, and are the biggest bulwark against these galaxy swallowing terrors.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm actually going to go out on a limb and say.. while the principal theme behind the diorama is good, the execution is rather imperfect and that kind of hampers my appreciation of what it's meant to represent. If oyu wanted to really graphically portray the consequences, it wouldn't be raping an eldar female (Biology is a big question mark for one thing, and there is a possibility it might even be fatal to humans. Eldar have been portrayed with toxic blood after all. And even then, for any "properly Emperor-fearing citizen" it would probably be distasteful, since that would risk xenos contamination and only a deviant would do that. It would be more like beastiality than anything. And besides if caught they'd probably be executed not for committing the rape, but for tainting themselves by "consorting with xenos.")

It would have worked to show the hypocrisy in the the propoganda fluff showing the "heroic, staunch defenders" of the Imperium had you seen them butchering Xenos children and enjoying it. Just as horrific, just as inhuman, but probably more in line with Imperial ideology (thereby showing how twisted it actually is.) Or if you wanted to follow the rape angle, then a human heretic - or even better someone innocent but accused of being a heretic for whatever reasons - being assaulted instead of an Eldar woman. Or if you wnated to be even omre graphic combine the two - consideirng how some of the IG's ranks can comprise feral savages, (insane) hive world gangers, and conscript prisoners (who can be murderers, rapists, etc.) rape and murder can quite possibly be tied together. I know in one of the Ghosts novels they actually had an example of a Guardsman doing just that in a newly-reclaimed territory (brutalizing the populace they were supposed to be defending.)

Of course. 40k prides itself in grimdark and action and violence, attracting an audience of children who want to play toy soldiers and fancy themselves as being all hardcore and the like, pretending to be whatever. Just like people who pretend to be tough and go on about wars and guns and everything like that. Ironically, the sight of real human suffering seems to perturb these people and make them uneasy, because they'd rather have their fake cartoony toy soldiers and pretend wars that they fantasize about. It's the same when you're talking about people who dig fiction that's "grim" and "dark" and "edgy", or armchair generals who fancy modern military nonsense, it's all a game of pretend and they'd rather play make believe and toy soldiers than see what it's really like.

This. I like 40K but I dont pretend that anything that goes on in there is nice and good or anything, alot of nasty shit does happen and it would not be a fun place to grow up. (Hive world? I don't fancy eating corpses to survive and having to worry about having my head eaten by a flying lamprey/bat hybrid, TYVM.) If 40K were handled more intelligently in some of the fluff (EG less emphasis on skulls, genocide, Gothic architecture, and just how utterly uttelry hopeless it was) this might actually be used to create an interesting conflict (and thus drama) in 40K. Alot of the so called "heroioc" images and accounts could be viewd as farcical propoganda (when viewed with the existence of stuff like the penal legions nad what they might get up to in civilian quarters.) if it were handled properly (which is the problem, it's not, and it tends to be a joke.)

Had we more of a clash where "normacly" (as we perceive it) meets the insanity that can be prevalent in 40K, rather than constantly and endlessly being bombarded by images of DEATHBLOODVIOLENCESKULLZ, it probably would be far more engaging than it actually is. I know I tend to respond favorably to the 40K novels that actually make an effort at putting a human spin on characters (or even poke fun at the grimdark, like Cain does) rather than just portray them as the shallow archetypes that pop up in the game itself (EG ALL COMMISSARS SHOOT EVERYONE, ALL CHAOS CULTISTS WILL SACRIFICE YOU, etc.)

Edit: Of course, since I've gotten into 40K I've also become increasingly more aware of how more brutal other sci fi settings can be. We tend not to think about how nasty living under the Empire might actually be, but In some ways I think it would be as bad or worse (Stormtroopers or imperial army in place of Imperial Guard.. yeah not much change.) Of course there is a subset of the SW fandom that also glorifies the Empire, so eh. Or the UNSC in Halo... some of the novels were interesting because they didn't try to do them as purely black/white (kidnapping children and killing them to make super soldiers.. that's not exactly a fun thing. Nevermind AI stuff.) Or Gears of War.

Hell, 40K has made me more aware of real life parallels that may exist (ITs kinda creepy to think how in some ways the USA resembles the Imperium, or The GE. Mike did a parody of the GE-USA thing once, and the stuff that happened in "IRaqi Freedom" could be seen as happening in the Guard too.)

[fgalkin]

I'm actually going to go out on a limb and say.. while the principal theme behind the diorama is good, the execution is rather imperfect and that kind of hampers my appreciation of what it's meant to represent. If oyu wanted to really graphically portray the consequences, it wouldn't be raping an eldar female (Biology is a big question mark for one thing, and there is a possibility it might even be fatal to humans. Eldar have been portrayed with toxic blood after all. And even then, for any "properly Emperor-fearing citizen" it would probably be distasteful, since that would risk xenos contamination and only a deviant would do that. It would be more like beastiality than anything. And besides if caught they'd probably be executed not for committing the rape, but for tainting themselves by "consorting with xenos.")

Indeed, which is why, for example, the sergeant's hand is on the radio switch, turning it off (or turning it on? Who knows). Then you have the placement of the figures, the lack of weapons on the Eldar, etc, which all serves to portray a much more nuanced scene than just LOL RAEP. It's actually a fairly tense stand-off and a clash of wills in the IG squad.

I think it's very good, really. So many little details that add hidden depth to the scene.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Connor MacLeod]

well like I said, it probably would have been more "in-universe" and probably have more impact had it been a human civilian or something. Or even a fellow soldier perhaps.. We know women serve in the guard and I'm sure that rape happens there too.

Really though you could substitute any fiction or sci fi other than 40K and have this same impact. 40K is only one xapmle because it was deliberately over the top (and meant to be self parodying - things changed over time of course) from the get-go, but like with alot of sci fi the "grimmer" aspects of reality in such situations tend to be glossed over. From the "make no visbile nasty wounds" blasters in Star wars or Trek (or even "handguns" in fiction) to the way alot of fantasy RPGS go (how many people think about whether Orcs, Ogres, Dragons, etc. might be actual creatures and have complex lives, people who'd mourn their loss, or not? Oh wait, Orcs and Ogres and shit are generally evil. So fuck em!)

Hell let's take it farther: getting back to that immaturity angle Shroom spoke of, it occurs to me that it's quite probably deliberate. I know with the US we tend to worship violence and military type shit alot, but at the same time I feel like we're rather insulated against the true horrors that such a mentality carries. We sensationalize violence and blood and gore into something to sell ratings. We hear rhetoric designed to encourage patroitism and justify certain mindsets or beliefs. Guns and a violent, militant mindset are okay, just as long as you dont' show the consequences. THINK OF THE CHILDREN! When I play fallout I get to see lots of gory (and sometimes amusing) Deaths, but that in no way conveys the true impact - it's far too impersonal. But if it were more personal it would be more horrific, and probably graphic, and we can't have that.) but part of me despite being amused feels a bit chilled and wonders if that little graphical figure in real life wouldn't be crawling around gushing blood, crying and shitting himself and calling for his mother because he's dying and he knows it. Maybe that's me just over-thinking the issue, but it still kinda creeps me out.

[white_rabbit]

Whoever did this has got some talent, the poses and even the expressions on the models are amazing.

Interesting choice to do as diorama, although I'm not sure as a concept its feasible, these guys are indoctrinated to avoid even picking up a weapon used by an alien, but then again, actually raping a "xenos scum" seems entirely feasible, if you think about it in the context of examples of rape of "subhumans" by soldiers in our own history.

That said, her tits are too big for a skinny eldar chick.

It think its always been a funny thing about GW products, the company produces material that includes implied rape, murder, torture, and very occasionally actual rape, but markets the game to youth as well.

[Connor MacLeod]

It think its always been a funny thing about GW products, the company produces material that includes implied rape, murder, torture, and very occasionally actual rape, but markets the game to youth as well.

Again its okay if its only implied and NEVER SHOW THE HORRIFIC CONSEQUENCES, and if you cloak it in the right moral values its probably even more okay.

I really can't help but think that it could have been even nastier had you had some more rose-coloured sci fi in this situation. Like, say the Lensman universe. I liked it, but it also had a core of brutality and darkness that never got quite acknowledged (I mean blowing up whole races just because they're on the other side.. Of course they were always evil aliens.)

[xthetenth]

well like I said, it probably would have been more "in-universe" and probably have more impact had it been a human civilian or something. Or even a fellow soldier perhaps.. We know women serve in the guard and I'm sure that rape happens there too.

I'm going to agree here that the conflict here is part of what makes it so subtle, what gives it the power to really worm into your head to make you think about what's really going on. The propaganda that aliens aren't human and are therefore some sort of rightsless other that makes it feel like it wouldn't happen pops up, but then the sheer dehumanization that brings comes back, and it all starts making sense again in the context of how the IoM's propaganda mercilessly crushes any notion of empathy for any sentient not born with the right genome. When I thought about it it really made sense, and it took root in where some Imperial characters in fluff act surprised to have the tiniest shred of empathy toward other species, if I remember right, especially eldar. It's one of those things that at least for me nestles in a contradiction until it really brings it and the author's point about it to mind.

I don't know if there's any implicit contrasts something of this sort can bring to stark relief in shinier happier universes. There probably are, but it'd be enough of a stretch that a lot fewer people would get it. It's kind of scary how often in fiction one side is blatantly bad and it's used to justify total destruction. More nuanced, realistic stuff rarely surfaces.