The New Avril Song?

[TithonusSyndrome]

I could really care less how broad their appeal is, or hell, what their stance on online music sharing is, but for fuck's sake, don't write some two-note jingly-jangly alt-rock hoedown anthem and expect me to be impressed, especially after hearing how high their first four albums set the bar musically.

Hm, this sounds a lot like ... mindless posturing.

"Mindless posturing?" Drawing accusations out of a hat and tossing them blindly in the vain hope that they'll stick is a bad habit. You wanted to peg me as some kind of bespectacled hipster whose foremost concern was not the quality of the music but rather the commercial appeal, and now that I've made it nakedly obvious that your knee-jerk reaction was as far off the mark as you can possibly get, you're trying to scuttle the goalposts around and take me to task for something as far from the inital source of conflict as it can possibly go. Thanks but no thanks; I've got far too much to do today to go frolicking down the rabbit-hole with you.

Done slashing at that strawman? As I said before, I could care less what the commercial status of the band is AS LONG AS THE MUSIC DELIVERS. The last Judas Priest and Iron Maiden albums were international multi-million sellers, but they actually had TEETH. The song "Demonizer" from the Judas Priest album, "Angel Of Retribution", could pump more blood than Metallica's entire discography since 1991 combined, and THAT is what counts.

Hey look! More proclamations that your subjective opinion is absolutely correct.

Go take some reading comprehension classes, halfwit. I've never said my opinion is absolutely correct, but if you seriously think that the sound of a loose guitar string flopping all over the neck from the noodling of a sloppy guitarist is intense stuff, then I have serious personal doubts about the breadth of your cultural horizons. I used to think Fuel was a good song as well, until I learned that metal dosen't start and end with Metallica and that I shouldn't settle for any old runoff that oozes out of their studio.

And typically, that broad appeal comes as a result of diluting the source to make it less concentrate.

Actually, I would say that the broad appeal comes as a result of generalizing the solution space to include more combinations of input variables.

See? I can apply metaphors to music too that sound fancy but really have no basis for relationship.

Music isn't a liquid. It doesn't follow the same rules as liquids.

Well thank you kindly, Captain Pedantic. What rules WOULD you have it follow, then? I mean, I'm looking for accord here, and if the liquid metaphor dosen't work for you then that's fine and dandy, but I'm still baffled by the idea that someone could hear material from Metallica's first four albums, where their playing was crisp, heavy and savage, and then still be impressed by the lethargic blowjug hootenanny that is "Fuel".

Fine, fine, fine, I'm a "music elitist" and all the rest of the equally hackeneyed backlash if that helps you feel better about my objection, which wasn't even CLOSE to what it was. But I still have a hard time believing that a song like "Fuel", which a mentally handicapped War Amp with no guitar skills could play and a toothless hillbilly could accompany on yodelling vocals, offers anywhere near the same rush as a real thrash metal song with teeth. The kind this band used to make.

Hm, a back-handed concession with more verbiage and clever sounding metaphors to stand in place of a defensible position. How original.

"Hmm, a supercillious response that dismisses my entire statement by fiat and then in spite of claims that the entire argument is subjective, alludes to some kind of position that could be considered 'defensible'. How loquacious."

Please, don't do that. You're not helping your cause if you want to paint me as some kind of flowery wordsmith if you go on to use that tired old "jaded critic" routine yourself.

[Akhlut]

I think it's absolutely hilarious that someone is wondering whether Avril has sold out now rather than her earlier attempts, which were obviously shitty mainstream sell out material anyway. You might as well ask why Linkin Park or Papa Roach seem to have sold out.

No! Not Linkin Park! Their music speaks to the pain in my soul, you foul, foul man/woman! They are truly original and inspiring and are just reaping what they deserve!

[darthdavid]

When I watched the Girlfriend video all I could think was "If someone was being that gigantic of a bitch to the girl I was dating an ass-kicking our assault charges or something along those lines would follow.". I mean seriously, since when was it cool to be a condescending bitch who uses her amazing powers of bitchitude to beat up a girl and steal her (admittedly useless (I mean, he just stood there and let his girlfriend get fucked around with)) boyfriend?

[Majin Gojira]

There actually is a semi-objective way to analyse the 'worth' of a musical peace. None of the methods put forward so far are even close to doing that.

I'd say how to do it myself, but I to am a laymen in such matters (and the Opera people in my housewold would linch me). That, and I usually suplant that by placing "Clarity and Entertainment" as the primary methods of determining if any media is worth more than 5 seconds of analysis. The second being clearly subjective does not help, but the first one makes me loath quite a lot of music and musicians. If I have to look at the god damn lyrics to know what your saying, it's not worth it.

That Said, the song IS designed to hook into a listener (there's a reason they're called "Pop Hooks"). The image an musician cultivates is utterly irrelevant to the song itself.

I'm overtly neutral to the song itself. The description of the Video makes me question the possible message of such music and philosophise on possible cultural impact (because my brain just likes to do that).

[RedImperator]

There's an easy way to settle this old Metallica/new Metallica dispute: old Metallica and new Metallica sucks.

As for Avril Lavigne, calling her a sellout for making soulless corporate teeny-pop is like calling a shitwagon a sellout for being full of shit. Soulless corporate teeny-pop is what Avril does. I'm flabbergasted anyone could possibly be surprised, let alone dismayed, by this. Some people get annoyed she calls it punk, but really, the people who actually believe that would never listen to real punk anyway.

[Darth Wong]

The whole idea of condemning people for being "corporate sell-outs" seems rather dodgy to me anyway. Condemn them for some aspect of their music, not because they're making shitloads of money for their employers.

[TithonusSyndrome]

There's an easy way to settle this old Metallica/new Metallica dispute: old Metallica and new Metallica sucks.

I don't listen to any of their material from any era on any kind of basis, and I'd be hard pressed to tell you the last time I heard a Metallica song, but I still think the arrangements and riffing on the first four albums, which is a different beast altogether from the actual skill they demonstrate, is something unique.

The whole idea of condemning people for being "corporate sell-outs" seems rather dodgy to me anyway.

If you think it's dodgy from a distance, try coming within ten feet of any conversation circle made of neck-bearded, thick-rimmed glasses wearing hipsters. You'll be running for the nearest N'Sync album in no time flat out of sheer distaste for their mumblings.

[Darth Wong]

Of course, I view music for what it is: entertainment. I suspect that the "OMG no corporate toadies here" crowd thinks music is something more than that: something with profound significance to the human condition blah blah blah wank wank wank. I don't listen to shitty music just because someone tells me it's articulate or significant. I would rather listen to mindless sex-rock than pretentious bullshit.

If I wanted to expand my mind, I would be reading books instead of listening to a fucking iPod.

[Stark]

Remember, many teenagers base their whole idea of cultural identity and clique on tastes in music, so to them music really *IS* some huge important thing.

[Phantasee]

Remember, many teenagers base their whole idea of cultural identity and clique on tastes in music, so to them music really *IS* some huge important thing.

Yeah, how else would they learn how to dress like gangstas? It isn't the sort of thing you can ask your dad about. He'd probably playa hate so much that you'd start listening to Linkin Park.

[Lord Pounder]

Music is supposed to be escapism, for the artist performing and the people listening. Thats how i view it.

As I said earlier in the thread my niece is a Avril fan. So this weekend instead of undermining her by saying her taste in music sucks I asked her why she liked it.

To the younger crowd Avril is a rebel, she sticks her 2 middle fingers up and does her own thing, apparently. While I know the phoneyness of this I'm glad to see that my Dani, a girl who at 11 thinks she's too fat and ugly, follow the idea people who say you should look and act a certain way can go fuck themselves.

Also I've accepted that maybe this is a gateway for her into other genra's of music. I know I started off listening to manufactured rock like Stiltskin and then from there moved into what inspired them. Because of Avril's awful cover of Fuel she actually asked me about Metallica and borrowed a few of their CD's of me.

[TithonusSyndrome]

That Said, the song IS designed to hook into a listener (there's a reason they're called "Pop Hooks").

Not all music relies on hooks. I dare you to try to find a hook in a symphonic piece by the likes of Edgard Varese or a death metal song. For some music, it's strength comes from rejecting pop hooks and trying to make dissonant music that sounds "wrong" to the casual listener.

[Darth Wong]

There has always been a strong counter-culture, of music whose fans take a perverse sort of pride in the fact that it is inaccessible to neophytes. I'll have to add that to the list of self-indulgent music fan behaviours that I was never able to understand.

[TithonusSyndrome]

I'd think that you, of all people, would be able to recognize this behaviour for what it is immediately. It lends them a sense of solidarity and unity around their intentionally esoteric culture which is hostile to critics and dismisses them for being phillistines without any hope of understanding their culture unless they accept it's premises on their say-so alone, just like any good religion.

[Darth Wong]

I'd think that you, of all people, would be able to recognize this behaviour for what it is immediately. It lends them a sense of solidarity and unity around their intentionally esoteric culture which is hostile to critics and dismisses them for being phillistines without any hope of understanding their culture unless they accept it's premises on their say-so alone, just like any good religion.

It's interesting that this behaviour can sprout up spontaneously without the kind of organized indoctrination machine that most religions employ.

[Dillon]

I'd think that you, of all people, would be able to recognize this behaviour for what it is immediately. It lends them a sense of solidarity and unity around their intentionally esoteric culture which is hostile to critics and dismisses them for being phillistines without any hope of understanding their culture unless they accept it's premises on their say-so alone, just like any good religion.

It's interesting that this behaviour can sprout up spontaneously without the kind of organized indoctrination machine that most religions employ.

How about the ad campaigns that glorify these music stars? What about MTV which is basically a 24/7 telemarketing channel for popular music? Wouldn't those be the equivalent to religious indoctrination?

[Darth Wong]

How about the ad campaigns that glorify these music stars? What about MTV which is basically a 24/7 telemarketing channel for popular music? Wouldn't those be the equivalent to religious indoctrination?

Not applicable to the counter-culture types we're talking about. They instantly discredit something when it achieves that kind of mass-market exposure.

[Stark]

Even 'niche' teens usually define the 'counter' part of their tastes *against* what MTV is currently producing, so they're still falling for the 'MTV and other media are important to teenagers somehow' thing and being controlled taste-wise without making actual attribute-based decisions. Ie, 'x band would never play MTV they're too edgy man' is just as vapid as 'zomg teh new band y clip on MTV is awesome I will buy their album and all their singles'.

[Majin Gojira]

How about the ad campaigns that glorify these music stars? What about MTV which is basically a 24/7 telemarketing channel for popular music? Wouldn't those be the equivalent to religious indoctrination?

Not applicable to the counter-culture types we're talking about. They instantly discredit something when it achieves that kind of mass-market exposure.

An old ep of "Behind the Music" chronicled that duality well when they covered Green Day, as the entire Punk Rock scene is built on anti-corporate sentaments on a ground level.

[TithonusSyndrome]

I'd think that you, of all people, would be able to recognize this behaviour for what it is immediately. It lends them a sense of solidarity and unity around their intentionally esoteric culture which is hostile to critics and dismisses them for being phillistines without any hope of understanding their culture unless they accept it's premises on their say-so alone, just like any good religion.

It's interesting that this behaviour can sprout up spontaneously without the kind of organized indoctrination machine that most religions employ.

Yes and no. The indoctrination is both subtle and unintentional; some uptight indie weenie will cut someone down for their taste in mainstream music and leave them feeling deflated. Wanting to get in on this power to make people feel diminuitive and wanting to belong to that tight-knit culture of Artistically Upstanding People who fight the good fight against an uncaring world makes them pursue it themselves without being pushed. In fact, if indie weenies tried to push people to join their little club of music snobs, they'd never maintain that aura of exclusive privelage.

[Darth Wong]

I'd think that you, of all people, would be able to recognize this behaviour for what it is immediately. It lends them a sense of solidarity and unity around their intentionally esoteric culture which is hostile to critics and dismisses them for being phillistines without any hope of understanding their culture unless they accept it's premises on their say-so alone, just like any good religion.

It's interesting that this behaviour can sprout up spontaneously without the kind of organized indoctrination machine that most religions employ.

Yes and no. The indoctrination is both subtle and unintentional; some uptight indie weenie will cut someone down for their taste in mainstream music and leave them feeling deflated. Wanting to get in on this power to make people feel diminuitive and wanting to belong to that tight-knit culture of Artistically Upstanding People who fight the good fight against an uncaring world makes them pursue it themselves without being pushed. In fact, if indie weenies tried to push people to join their little club of music snobs, they'd never maintain that aura of exclusive privelage.

Ah, I see. The Cartmanland marketing strategy.

[phred]

I have a sudden urge to go watch the Josie and the Pussycats movie again.
I feel sorry for the people that will never hear anything other than the mainstream music that is packaged and fed to them. I can only feel irritation at the "Artistically Upstanding People" who refuse to listen to it for that reason.
Its similar to my distaste for wiggers. They try to be a sort of counter-culture by becoming a caricature of a fairly negative sterotype

Why cant people just like the music? Why does it have to be about "Integrity" or "The Message" or some equally irrelevant reason.

[Plekhanov]

Music is supposed to be escapism, for the artist performing and the people listening. Thats how i view it.

As I said earlier in the thread my niece is a Avril fan. So this weekend instead of undermining her by saying her taste in music sucks I asked her why she liked it.

To the younger crowd Avril is a rebel, she sticks her 2 middle fingers up and does her own thing, apparently. While I know the phoneyness of this I'm glad to see that my Dani, a girl who at 11 thinks she's too fat and ugly, follow the idea people who say you should look and act a certain way can go fuck themselves.

Thing is Avril is just as thin and pretty as Jessica Simpson or whoever only she has a different stylist so I'm not sure how she's really of much help to teens who think they're fat and ugly.

[Plekhanov]

How about the ad campaigns that glorify these music stars? What about MTV which is basically a 24/7 telemarketing channel for popular music? Wouldn't those be the equivalent to religious indoctrination?

Not applicable to the counter-culture types we're talking about. They instantly discredit something when it achieves that kind of mass-market exposure.

With some odd though, I'm quite heavily into the leftfield indie scene and I could never quite understand why some very well known bands like the Smiths, the Cure, Pixies, Undertones... still have indie cred yet others like for example the Kaiser Chiefs who indie kids went wild for when they first came out now get sneered at because they broke through to the mainstream (in the UK atleast) and I'm not talking about their crappy 2nd album but their excellent first few singles which people requested loads a few years back .

[Lord Pounder]

Music is supposed to be escapism, for the artist performing and the people listening. Thats how i view it.

As I said earlier in the thread my niece is a Avril fan. So this weekend instead of undermining her by saying her taste in music sucks I asked her why she liked it.

To the younger crowd Avril is a rebel, she sticks her 2 middle fingers up and does her own thing, apparently. While I know the phoneyness of this I'm glad to see that my Dani, a girl who at 11 thinks she's too fat and ugly, follow the idea people who say you should look and act a certain way can go fuck themselves.

Thing is Avril is just as thin and pretty as Jessica Simpson or whoever only she has a different stylist so I'm not sure how she's really of much help to teens who think they're fat and ugly.

Agreed, but it gave Dani the courage to stop being so self consious, which in her stage of life is vitally important.