Page 1 of 1

USS Arizona's True Coloring Rediscovered

Posted: 2006-12-12 10:26pm
by FSTargetDrone
Fascinating bit of newly discovered infomation about USS Arizona, for modelers, wargamers, or just those who like big ships!

(sorry if this has been posted in HAB or someplace else I don't have access to!
Image

New USS Arizona model shows blue paint scheme

By Burl Burlingame

bburlingame@starbulletin.com

The name of the American war plan in 1941 was "Rainbow Five," but it's unlikely this referred to the battleships at Pearl Harbor. Or did it?

According to a discovery by historians, the ships of Battleship Row were a bright kaleidoscope of colors, not the dull gray camouflage they were thought to have been for the last 65 years.

The information was announced last evening at an unveiling of a new model of the USS Arizona in the battleship Visitor Center at Pearl Harbor. Security was tight for the last week as the model was placed in location, and it was covered in shrouds before being dramatically unveiled by a group of USS Arizona survivors.

"Every battleship sailor in the world wants a peek at this," remarked retired Adm. Thomas Fargo to the crowd of several hundred historians, veterans and news media.

The model replaces an older, inaccurate model built in the 1960s. Craftsman Don Preul, determined to create the world's most accurate representation of the warship, conferred with Park Service historian Dan Martinez on the proper colors. Research was difficult because most of the ship's records had been destroyed in 1944.

Preul hit the jackpot in the National Archives when he uncovered an order from Pearl Harbor commander Husband Kimmel directing that the ships under his command be painted a shade referred to as Mediterranean Blue.

"Suddenly, here was a link to something that had troubled us for years," said Martinez. "Then we had it confirmed by USS Arizona aviator Glenn Lane, who was keeper of the paint locker in the aviation section. Not only was the ship blue, but the tops of the No. 1, No. 2 and No. 4 turrets were red."

Kimmel's orders specify a rainbow of five colors to represent the different battleship divisions, painted atop the two front turrets of battleships. The aftermost turret top was to be painted in a color representing which aircraft division the ship belonged to. In the case of the USS Arizona, both colors were a bright red.

Cruisers had their turret tops painted in similar colors, but in stripes instead of solid panels.

The idea, explained Preul, was so aircraft could identify their own ships, and also see which ships were firing their cannon: "These battleships could throw shells 18 miles. The planes couldn't get close enough to read their names, so the bright colors helped."

Preul, Martinez and associates including naval artist Tom Freeman met a few months ago to go over the orders and compare them to black and white pictures of the period. Their consensus was that the ships at Pearl Harbor were indeed painted in this manner.

"It certainly raised questions about coloration of all the ships at Pearl," said Preul. "This is a topic that has raised a lot of controversy among historians over the years. It also reveals what an interesting time of transition the Navy was in at the time."

"We had it wrong for 65 years," said Martinez. "Today, we have made it right."

Image
Edit:

Bolding added and here is a larger version of the image at the top.

Posted: 2006-12-13 03:51am
by Einhander Sn0m4n
Cue Frank Hipper spontaneously orgasming and lactating simultaneously... :lol:

Excellent discovery. I LOVE the red-top turrets! I think one of my future ships will feature this.

Posted: 2006-12-13 01:09pm
by FSTargetDrone
Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:Cue Frank Hipper spontaneously orgasming and lactating simultaneously... :lol:

Excellent discovery. I LOVE the red-top turrets! I think one of my future ships will feature this.
Hehe. Just imagine the whole line of battleships, each with a different set of topside coloring. I bet it looked quite striking! I've seen models of Italian warships form the Second World War with red and white striping on either the bow or stern topsides area (or maybe German) and it looks pretty cool. If you think about it, it really was a clever idea to help the aircrews identify exactly what ship they were looking at.

Posted: 2006-12-13 05:28pm
by Thag
Dammit, my Arizona's painted wrong now! Guess I've gotta redo it. :D

FS, that was the Italians that did the striping. As I recall, the Germans either slapped swastikas on the bow and stern or painted the turret tops.

Posted: 2006-12-13 05:51pm
by Frank Hipper
Thing about this is; the photographic evidence has been there, looking people in the face for 65 years. It's merely taken Kimmel's orders, and the testimony of a few key witnesses to put everything together for this new interpretation.

Posted: 2006-12-13 07:59pm
by FSTargetDrone
Thag wrote:Dammit, my Arizona's painted wrong now! Guess I've gotta redo it. :D

FS, that was the Italians that did the striping. As I recall, the Germans either slapped swastikas on the bow and stern or painted the turret tops.
Ah, I was pretty sure it was Italian! Thanks!

Edit, found this:

Image

Frank Hipper wrote:Thing about this is; the photographic evidence has been there, looking people in the face for 65 years. It's merely taken Kimmel's orders, and the testimony of a few key witnesses to put everything together for this new interpretation.
If you look at some overhead shots of the ships on the day of the attack, such as the one below, you can see that even though the image is in black and white, there are some obvious shading and tonal differences on the turrets of the ships (as compared with each other) that seem to correspond with the turrets' different coloration.

Image

In the lower line of ships, the turrets on the second ship from the right seem to be very bright. Compare that ship's turrets with those of the other ships.

Posted: 2006-12-13 08:15pm
by Frank Hipper
That's Tennessee with the light turrets in the photo, and per Kimmel's order her forward turrets should be white.
Judging by the stark contrast in colors, and the fact of the orders, it really does all add up. There's also some overhead shots of cruiser operating with the Pacific Fleet of the time that show clearly delineated stripes that correspond with Kimmel's orders, as well.

A lot of historians have noticed something funky going on in the photos for years, but haven't been able to reconcile what they were seeing in the evidence with what was "known" about color schemes; all it takes is one piece of paper, a couple eyewitnesses and, voila, history is re-written.

It's a great time to be a modeler. :D

Posted: 2006-12-13 09:25pm
by FSTargetDrone
Frank Hipper wrote:That's Tennessee with the light turrets in the photo, and per Kimmel's order her forward turrets should be white.
Judging by the stark contrast in colors, and the fact of the orders, it really does all add up. There's also some overhead shots of cruiser operating with the Pacific Fleet of the time that show clearly delineated stripes that correspond with Kimmel's orders, as well.
I've been trying to find better and larger images online of the day of the attack (or really from anytime after the turrets were painted), but so far, no joy.
A lot of historians have noticed something funky going on in the photos for years, but haven't been able to reconcile what they were seeing in the evidence with what was "known" about color schemes; all it takes is one piece of paper, a couple eyewitnesses and, voila, history is re-written.
I'd be interested to see if these new discoveries are incoporated into ship or even flight sims that feature the Pearl attack. IL-2 has some missions you can fly from the US or Japanese side over Pearl Harbor, but all the ships look the same. I have to imagine that there are modders out there who've heard of this new info who can make said changes.
It's a great time to be a modeler. :D
I'm not much of a ship modeler, but it's fascinating nonetheless!

Posted: 2006-12-14 04:50pm
by Frank Hipper
FSTargetDrone wrote:
It's a great time to be a modeler. :D
I'm not much of a ship modeler, but it's fascinating nonetheless!
I meant that as a modeler in general, actually.
Ship modeling may benefit especially from today's changes in the hobby industry, but there isn't an aspect of modeling that hasn't improved, vastly improved, in the past ten years.

With the quality of research going on today, with the global demand for kits that reflect research, and with the huge number of producers meeting that demand, modeling is in a golden age unlike anything before.

The popularity of conventions worldwide, the staggering number of not only kit producers, but producers of after market decals, detail sets, specialist paints for every conceivable subject, printed reference material geared entirely for the modeling community all show that now is a time like no other.

30 years ago, you had a relative handful of large-scale companies producing kits and supplies, and even fewer of reference materials.
What after-market there was (if you could find it!) catered to lunatic fringe rivet-counters.
Going by memory alone I could probably name 95% of those producers; today I wouldn't even know where to start.

If modeling is dying, it certainly has a bizarre way of showing it.

It's a great time to be a modeler. :D

Posted: 2006-12-14 05:55pm
by FSTargetDrone
Frank Hipper wrote:
FSTargetDrone wrote:
It's a great time to be a modeler. :D
I'm not much of a ship modeler, but it's fascinating nonetheless!
I meant that as a modeler in general, actually.
Oh, I understood. I mostly do armor and aircraft, but this sort of information is always interesting to me!
Ship modeling may benefit especially from today's changes in the hobby industry, but there isn't an aspect of modeling that hasn't improved, vastly improved, in the past ten years.

With the quality of research going on today, with the global demand for kits that reflect research, and with the huge number of producers meeting that demand, modeling is in a golden age unlike anything before.

The popularity of conventions worldwide, the staggering number of not only kit producers, but producers of after market decals, detail sets, specialist paints for every conceivable subject, printed reference material geared entirely for the modeling community all show that now is a time like no other.

30 years ago, you had a relative handful of large-scale companies producing kits and supplies, and even fewer of reference materials.
What after-market there was (if you could find it!) catered to lunatic fringe rivet-counters.
Going by memory alone I could probably name 95% of those producers; today I wouldn't even know where to start.

If modeling is dying, it certainly has a bizarre way of showing it.

It's a great time to be a modeler. :D
I completely agree! I didn't somehow mean to suggest otherwise, if that's what came across? Anyone who thinks modeling is dying as a hobby isn't paying attention or is ignorant of what's out there. It may no longer be as popular among young people, but it's still going strong. I routinely visit a dozen or so sites, daily. I've got all kinds of reviews and research on my machine here. I've written a few articles and follow the hobby pretty closely. There's so many kits, and so little time! And I don't even want to think about how much unbuilt stuff I have...

Posted: 2006-12-14 07:13pm
by Frank Hipper
FSTargetDrone wrote:I didn't somehow mean to suggest otherwise, if that's what came across?
Oh, nonono...

Don't misconstrue me taking the opportunity to get on a soapbox with thinking we were in disagreement.
Soory about that. :P

Posted: 2006-12-14 10:11pm
by FSTargetDrone
Frank Hipper wrote: Oh, nonono...

Don't misconstrue me taking the opportunity to get on a soapbox with thinking we were in disagreement.
Soory about that. :P
Hehe, no worries!

In any event, seeing this new information has actually piqued my interest in building an Arizona with these colors. Do you have a favorite plastic kit? I know of Trumpeter in 1/350 and 1/700; DML in 1/700; the funny 1/426th Revell kit and RoG 1/720. Any recommendations?

Posted: 2006-12-14 10:14pm
by Kettch
So....

I'm just wondering why none of the thousands of veterans who served in the Pacific fleet never made a stink that Battleships should have been painted blue?

Posted: 2006-12-14 10:21pm
by FSTargetDrone
Kettch wrote:So....

I'm just wondering why none of the thousands of veterans who served in the Pacific fleet never made a stink that Battleships should have been painted blue?
I think it's not even so much just the blue of the hull, but the colored turrets which is "new" information. Or at least, newly confirmed.

Posted: 2006-12-15 12:22am
by Balrog
Wow. Wouldn't something like this have come up sooner though? I mean, there are still people alive today who were actually at Pearl Harbor.

Posted: 2006-12-15 12:50am
by GrandMasterTerwynn
Kettch wrote:So....

I'm just wondering why none of the thousands of veterans who served in the Pacific fleet never made a stink that Battleships should have been painted blue?
Well, to be fair, "blue" isn't quite the name that comes to mind when you see that particular shade of blue they painted the battleships. It's more of a grayish-bluish color. You could call it a blue, or a gray, or get fancy and call it a shade of slate, and you'd be pretty close to the mark.

Posted: 2006-12-15 04:52pm
by Frank Hipper
FSTargetDrone wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote: Oh, nonono...

Don't misconstrue me taking the opportunity to get on a soapbox with thinking we were in disagreement.
Soory about that. :P
Hehe, no worries!

In any event, seeing this new information has actually piqued my interest in building an Arizona with these colors. Do you have a favorite plastic kit? I know of Trumpeter in 1/350 and 1/700; DML in 1/700; the funny 1/426th Revell kit and RoG 1/720. Any recommendations?
Dragon's Premium Edition is the best bet in 1/700 plastic, but the bow profile needs some help in the form of a little putty.

The Revell 1/426 is still not too shabby, despite the molds being nearly 50 years old, there's photo ecth sets out there made specifically for it, it can be a real winner. I built several of these as a kid, they cut a fine wake in a bathtub, let me tell you. :lol:
The 1/720 version is crap, not worth the price, no matter how little you spend.

MiniHobbies "1/700" is seriously out of scale, bigger then the Revell 1/720, and clumsily molded.

The Banner 1/350 kit has quality simialr to the Revell 1/426, but is affordable, and has photo-etch available for it in particular.

The ISW 1/350 resin kit is for those who have too much of money. Period. :P

HP Model's 1/700 resin kit is one of the better OOB builds, despite needing photo-etch to make it shine. Best hull available in this scale, but again, for the scale, we're talking $$$$...

I have the Dragon original issue kit in my stash, the one with the funky rubber details and metal turrets, it will need some work on the bow, but can be built up nicely and there's quite a bit of after market available.
It would be my personal bet, but try and get the more recent "Premium Edition" that replaces the rubber and metal parts.

Posted: 2006-12-15 06:04pm
by FSTargetDrone
Frank Hipper wrote:Dragon's Premium Edition is the best bet in 1/700 plastic, but the bow profile needs some help in the form of a little putty.
This does sound best and not too expensive, from prices I've found online. I found a review of the original release with the weird rubber parts and I want to stay away from that.

You know, another thing I'd like to get my hands on is this kit of the USS Olympia. The actual ship is docked in Philadelphia, berthed alongside the USS Becuna at the Independence Seaport Museum which is an easy drive for me.

Posted: 2006-12-15 06:51pm
by CaptainChewbacca
I'm also confused as to why no sailor ever looked at a ship model in a museum and said "it was actually green". The article doesn't really explain it.

Posted: 2006-12-16 04:39pm
by Frank Hipper
FSTargetDrone wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:Dragon's Premium Edition is the best bet in 1/700 plastic, but the bow profile needs some help in the form of a little putty.
This does sound best and not too expensive, from prices I've found online. I found a review of the original release with the weird rubber parts and I want to stay away from that.

You know, another thing I'd like to get my hands on is this kit of the USS Olympia. The actual ship is docked in Philadelphia, berthed alongside the USS Becuna at the Independence Seaport Museum which is an easy drive for me.
That's one Revell ship kit that needs a lot of help: those massively out-of-scale rivets ALL over the hull, and the massively out-of-scale plate details make it a labor of love; true, dedicated, unconditional love. :o

Personally, I'd go for either the Combrig (first choice, best price, photo-etch included) or WSW 1/700 scale resin kits.

Combrig Olympia

Posted: 2006-12-19 12:41am
by FSTargetDrone
Frank Hipper wrote:That's one Revell ship kit that needs a lot of help: those massively out-of-scale rivets ALL over the hull, and the massively out-of-scale plate details make it a labor of love; true, dedicated, unconditional love. :o

Personally, I'd go for either the Combrig (first choice, best price, photo-etch included) or WSW 1/700 scale resin kits.

Combrig Olympia
Yeah, but injected plastic is still cheaper. :) That Combrig kit goes for $350+! :shock:

Posted: 2006-12-19 06:41pm
by Frank Hipper
FSTargetDrone wrote:
Frank Hipper wrote:That's one Revell ship kit that needs a lot of help: those massively out-of-scale rivets ALL over the hull, and the massively out-of-scale plate details make it a labor of love; true, dedicated, unconditional love. :o

Personally, I'd go for either the Combrig (first choice, best price, photo-etch included) or WSW 1/700 scale resin kits.

Combrig Olympia
Yeah, but injected plastic is still cheaper. :) That Combrig kit goes for $350+! :shock:
Uhhhm, Pacific Front Hobbies lists the 1/700 Combrig USS Olympia for $32.00, and the 1/700 WSW USS Olympia for $45.00.

Posted: 2006-12-20 01:48am
by FSTargetDrone
Frank Hipper wrote:Pacific Front Hobbies[/url] lists the 1/700 Combrig USS Olympia for $32.00, and the 1/700 WSW USS Olympia for $45.00.
Ooo, Merry Christmas, sir! I do believe I will look into that. Thanks!

Posted: 2006-12-20 06:32am
by Inquisitor Ryan
CaptainChewbacca wrote:I'm also confused as to why no sailor ever looked at a ship model in a museum and said "it was actually green". The article doesn't really explain it.
Easy, all the vets were sitting back laughing at the idiots paiting their ships wrong. And it's possible it was classified information at the time.