CG vs drawing

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-23 11:52am

Do what I did and get into 3D modelling/animation. I can't draw for shit, finding Lightwave was a godsend for a useless sod like me.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-01-23 07:58pm

Heh... render this:

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-23 08:01pm

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:Do what I did and get into 3D modelling/animation. I can't draw for shit, finding Lightwave was a godsend for a useless sod like me.

CG doesn't have as much soul as hand-drawn images. It's too synthetic, and the amont of effort and care put into the modeller doesn't compare to that of an artist.

SPOOFE: Nice.

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-23 08:15pm

CG doesn't have as much soul as hand-drawn images. It's too synthetic, and the amont of effort and care put into the modeller doesn't compare to that of an artist.

I weep when I read stuff like this. You wound me sir, you wound me. I could direct you to a thread concerning just this sort of thing over at the top Lightwave forum, where they're discussing the sort of mail people like myself get all the time.

"Make me a ****** please and then an ILM style movie to go put it in."
"I need a 10 km long USS Enterprise-F by Friday, care to knock one up?"

It isn't till people try out 3D software for themselves that they realise just how damned hard and time consuming it really is. Even with all the manuals in the world beside you, you will not create a good scene without an artists eye, a flair for the work and talent. I am a trained photographer, I have worked on having an eye for a shot and I have to know how cameras work. I have to know how they see things differently from the human eye and how to work several very complex software packages in order to create even a semi-decent image.

I wish it were half as easy as people think, I really do. I remember the good old days of drawing spaceships on paper, of 'designing' fantastic craft and scenes in 2D. It isn't until you try to make these solid that you see just what a gap there is in that one dimension. Spoofe, I could render your image, maybe even animate it, but it would take me a week or more working 3 or 4 hours every evening.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-23 08:28pm

Nice that you missed my point.

*WOOSH*

They still have less soul and are too synthetic. That doesn't mean that I don't respect CG, just that I respect hand-drawn art more. It covers animation, too. I respect cell animation more than total CG, but I know that CG can be an excellent tool when used to enhance cell animation.

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-23 08:37pm

MY point was that you said "no soul" and "the amont of effort and care put into the modeller doesn't compare to that of an artist. "

MY point is that of course it's synthetic, it's computer generated, and that you don't seem to have a clue just how much time and effort go into modelling and animation. I tried to enlighten you on this point, but I seem to have failed. I admire artists who draw well, but there accomplishments do not blind me to the immense amount of work that goes into creating decent CG art either. It would take just as long to hand draw AoTC as CGI the film, and the design and previsualisation work would be exactly the same. Different mediums, different skill sets in those mediums but very, very similar talents.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-23 08:42pm

Yeah, whatever...

You think one way, I another.

Enjoy continuing to make you plastic toys that don't physically exist.

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2003-01-23 09:31pm

No, technically speaking what you have is an opinion, or more accurately, an uninformed opinion which , as Dirty Harry so correctly points out, are like assholes. Everyone has one. What I'm giving you are called facts, which you cunningly dismiss with that startling and incisive riposte, Yeah whatever.

Enjoy continuing to make you plastic toys that don't physically exist.

Man, you've got this debating thing down to a tee, haven't you. I bet you're top of all your special classes with brains like yours. One might then ask... What do you create? Or maybe your just an oxygen thief?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-23 09:36pm

I'm not going to turn this into a debate, cunt.

I will again repeat that I don't like CG as much as I do hand-drawn art, because it lacks spirit and skill. And I know that CG requires skill, but of a different type.

I said above that I do draw.

Give me a minute and I'll find one of my works and edit it in...

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-23 09:41pm

'It lacks spirit'? Take a look at one of the newest renders of the O-Wing, and tell me that it is not damn cool, with lots of spirit.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-23 09:43pm

Cool it, Spanky. If you want to toss insults go play in the HoS.

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-23 09:45pm

SPOOFE wrote:Heh... render this:

Heh... Show me his back without spending another day drawing it.

Also, there are shaders and postprocess tools out there that can render things in that style.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-23 09:45pm

Enlightenment wrote:Cool it, Spanky. If you want to toss insults go play in the HoS.

I'm not the one who called the other retarded or a waste of oxygen...

Here's one of my works:
http://ironmouse.dhs.org/dragon/mihoshi/011/023300.html

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-23 09:52pm

Spanky, eh, it's pretty good.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-01-23 09:54pm

Oh, what have I started?

I'd hate to imply that 3D rendering is inferior to hand drawings. That would be like implying that sculpting is inferior to painting. Neither one is "better"... they're just different.

Hell, I wish I had Kenny's modelling skills. But I don't, so I stick with what I've got, and I'm proud of it. Hand drawing has an advantage in requiring simpler materials, but a disadvantage in that... well... it's flat. It's a drawing. It takes extraordinary amounts of skill to make a flat drawing look good, dynamic, or interesting.

With modelling, you have more complex art tools, but you can pull off some really incredible stuff. Of course, it takes an extraordinary amount of skill and practice to make the difference between something that looks like an obvious, blocky render, and something that looks downright gorgeous (as much of Kenny's work does).

Let us come together, in harmony, fellow artists, and sing our praises to the stars above! Let us then set out and turn our ire towards those with little or no artistic talent, and slaughter them, and devour their corpses, so that we may cleanse this planet with their blood and give birth to an all-encompassing artistic utopia! Huzzah!

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-23 09:55pm

Thanks, Hemlock.

My original drawings aren't as good as that one (a portrait), though. But they're quite good.

I shoud do a portrait of Asuka sometime, I think...

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-01-23 09:56pm

Spoofe, I could render your image, maybe even animate it, but it would take me a week or more working 3 or 4 hours every evening.

Nah, you don't need to render it... I was trying to make a good-natured jab that, unfortunately, turned into a "Drawing vs. Rendering" war... ::sigh::

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-23 10:28pm

I consider the two different mediums to be strong at different things. It is immensely difficult to be good at either one, and both of them take exceptionally dedicated minds and focus to do properly, but the two are too different to adequately compare. Like black and white photography vs. color, the two are better for different things, and I think that both of them are ways of expressing similar things in different ways. In either medium, there is the potential for great artistry, but neither is wholly adequate for delivering everything that an artist believes and feels. There is no perfect medium, and these are another two imperfect ones that artists use to express themselves more clearly.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-01-23 10:44pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote: And I know that CG requires skill, but of a different type.

Please define the difference.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-23 10:45pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote: And I know that CG requires skill, but of a different type.
Please define the difference.

Artistic versus technical.

Although I must admit right now that I'm guilty of having dozens of CG images that were created totally in Photoshop...

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-01-23 11:41pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
DPDarkPrimus wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote: And I know that CG requires skill, but of a different type.
Please define the difference.
Artistic versus technical.

Ok I have to take exception there. Although I obviously can't use Kenny's work because he's doing a model for me so I'm not so much biased as I am Worshipping at his alter, there is no way you can say none of the following show artistic skills by the guy's that CGed them.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.wn5/AT-ST2.JPG

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.wn5/PRISONER.JPG

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.wn5/SOLEIL1.JPG

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.wn5/xw ... _shark.JPG

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.wn5/De ... arture.JPG

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rob.wn5/De ... planet.jpg

Yes, you can get Badly done CGI, that is dull and souless with no artistry, but then you can say the same for hand drawn art. You may prefer hand drawn, but that doesn't mean you can turn around and proclaim Cgi artists and modellers as having no artistic skills.

And with that ver with, lets change the mood

. I liked the Mihoshi drawing, any chance of you putting up some more of your work?

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2003-01-23 11:52pm

Someone asked me, my opinion on just such a matter. I have done art my entire life. Yup, almost 23 years of it. Personally, defining art is a bitch. There is a hard definition, and I had that in Art Appreciation. It's really broad. However I can see 3D modeling, or CG as art. It depends like most stuff. Basically, you could take a standard sketch, or a basic reference drawing, and that is art, but then again not art in the sense as a true drawn and finished piece is. Say pictures of the CG characters in Star Wars, well that wouldn't be art so much. If they were posed and arranged then that would be art. It's very fucking tricky to truely define it. It can encompass so much.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2003-01-24 12:06am

DG_Cal_Wright wrote:Someone asked me, my opinion on just such a matter. I have done art my entire life. Yup, almost 23 years of it. Personally, defining art is a bitch. There is a hard definition, and I had that in Art Appreciation. It's really broad. However I can see 3D modeling, or CG as art. It depends like most stuff. Basically, you could take a standard sketch, or a basic reference drawing, and that is art, but then again not art in the sense as a true drawn and finished piece is. Say pictures of the CG characters in Star Wars, well that wouldn't be art so much. If they were posed and arranged then that would be art. It's very fucking tricky to truely define it. It can encompass so much.

I totally agree.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2003-01-24 12:49am

Rob Wilson wrote:And with that ver with, lets change the mood . I liked the Mihoshi drawing, any chance of you putting up some more of your work?

Possibly. Excluding all of the little 5-10 minute ones in my various notes and notebooks, I have two sketchbooks.

The Mihoshi picture is so far the only illustration of mine that's been scanned and put online.

In my sketchbooks I have about 34 original sketches of women. Out of that, I feel that about eight of them are unacceptable in quality. Two pictures were done using conte crayons, so they're unscanable. Three of them are also nudes (two topless, one fully nude).

Concerning the Mihoshi piece, I'm sometimes a little warry of using it as an example of my work, as it isn't an original drawing. I did it as part of an art class assignment last year, where we had to do two portraits. I chose to do Mihoshi for one of them, so I drew it using a picture of her as a subject. So I'm not sure if that would count as cheating or not, as I'm basically copying an image, but that was what we were suposed to do (in case you want to know, I didn't trace over it, but had the image nearby).

Post by **Rob Wilson** » 2003-01-24 01:55am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote:And with that ver with, lets change the mood . I liked the Mihoshi drawing, any chance of you putting up some more of your work?
Possibly. Excluding all of the little 5-10 minute ones in my various notes and notebooks, I have two sketchbooks.

The Mihoshi picture is so far the only illustration of mine that's been scanned and put online.

Then get scanning *cracks whip*

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Concerning the Mihoshi piece, I'm sometimes a little warry of using it as an example of my work, as it isn't an original drawing. I did it as part of an art class assignment last year, where we had to do two portraits. I chose to do Mihoshi for one of them, so I drew it using a picture of her as a subject. So I'm not sure if that would count as cheating or not, as I'm basically copying an image, but that was what we were suposed to do (in case you want to know, I didn't trace over it, but had the image nearby).

If it's done in yur style, with your interpretation of the image thn it will be a representation of your work. Don't forget you added the shading and decided on the style of that shading, the same goes for any highlights. It's a good piece of work (plus if you draw a live subject, would anyone accuse you of copying? Then why should they if your working off a drawing?

).