StarDestroyer.Net BBS

My usual junk market's closed down until April so I'm in a bit of a drought when it comes to cameras. I'm thinking of getting one off eBay for the first time, have found reliable sellers (in that people I know vouch for them) and am now trying to find a model to buy. I'm looking for a 35mm to go with the Kiev, preferably something robust and a bit more compact. The main contenders are:

- An Argus C2/C3. A sturdy design that looks hella-cool and there's so many of them around that a good one won't cost more than a good $20. That is, if you're American; shipping to the EU bumps this up to $60-80 easily. Ideally I'd want a pre-WWII model but I'd happily settle for a later one. The big problem is that, while it's a great camera, and one I've wanted for ages, I'd be paying way too much for it due to where I live.

- A LOMO Smena Symbol. These get sold to dumb rich kids for $200+, but a good one with case goes for under $15. It'd be nice to try a compact, no-frills camera I can slip in my pocket, and it's cheap, but the design is just nasty. It's a little-to-no-risk buy though.

- A Zorki S. The most expensive choice, but the one I'm most drawn to. It's probably the closest I'll get to Zorki 1 (or for that matter, the Leica it's ripping off) for a decent price; I can get a working one for just over $80. Technically it's the best camera of the three and the collapsible lens probably makes it easier to carry around, but the price is still steep.

Ideas? Has anyone got any other suggestions?

I'm very happy with this camera, unfortunately it's a bit of a cult item and can sell for ridiculous prices at times. It's about as small as SLR cameras get.

I would not pay $60-$80 for a C3. They aren't terrible cameras, but they are primitive, and are a little wonky to use because of it. Advancing the film is a multi-step process because of a film advance catch that has to be eased and then closed again at the right time, otherwise the frame counter won't engage. The viewfinder and rangefinder windows are separate, and the focusing wheel setup looks awkward given the camera's shape. That shape is not especially comfortable to hold, having handled one in a junk store a while back.

Some other options to consider, now or in the future:

The Canon Canonet series. A good-quality, attractive rangefinder family which can be found for very reasonable prices - a search shows a 28 in Belgium for EUR 15, a QL-17 in Germany for EUR 8.66, and so on. Other than the QL-17 they are shutter-priority automatic exposure* which is annoying, but the QL-17 also has full manual. The GIII version of the 17 is sought after right now, but they are still attractive rangefinders which are generally in good condition because they aren't that old (1960s-1970s). I paid $15 for a 28 for my brother for Christmas at a thrift store, and I can report that they are comfortable to hold, the action is smooth, and the viewfinder is bright.

* Disengaging the automatic metering to gain aperture control locks the shutter at its flash sync speed of 1/30.

The FED 2C looks to be another FSU early Leica clone, which looks to be running for much cheaper than your Zorki on eBay. Some sample photos with the Orion-15 lens at the bottom of this page.

Another old rangefinder of apparently respectable quality is the Ricoh 500 or 519, not to be confused with the 500 from the 1970s.

The Canon IV, P, and 7 seem like excellent Leica-compatible rangefinders, and seem to be priced accordingly. If you ever see one being sold by someone who apparently doesn't know what he's got, though, you should jump on it.

The Kodak Retina (also) folders are made to sound like excellent cameras, and depending on type are either scale-focus or rangefinder. There are a couple for bid on eBay in Belgium and Germany for not too much money, so apparently they can still be had for inappropriately low prices.

The Argus A (and kin) are handsome knockoffs of the Leica IA. They are much older than the Smena, so condition may vary, but they are cheap, they are solid (bakelite and metal), they are fixable, and they look about a million times bett

The Argus A looks great but it'll have the same problem as the C3 - cheap to buy, expensive to ship.

FED's are my backup option; I've been looking for a 1 but they rarely come up cheap. The 2 seems like a perfectly fine camera but they went through more design changes away from the Leice design (IIRC the 2 has an entirely different rangefinder system with a longer base - better for accuracy, but not quite the same thing); also, my usual source for cameras has FED's going for consistently higher prices than Zorki's, so I'm weary of buying them cheap. All things being equal I'm more drawn to the Zorki than the FED. Still, good call.

I know pretty much nothing about Canons but the ones you suggested are interesting. Maybe it is time to branch off into something other than old Russian crap The only thing that worries me is the electric metering in the Canonet.

I'm very happy with this camera, unfortunately it's a bit of a cult item and can sell for ridiculous prices at times. It's about as small as SLR cameras get.

The Pen F is one for the "maybe, someday" pile. I love the design, but with a three-digit price it just isn't on the cards right now.

Good news everybody! I found a Leica copy for a good price from a reputable seller in pretty much pristine condition, with the case, lens cap and spool. Too bad it's got a swastika stamped on it. Damnit.

EDIT: You know, I might just break the bank and get a genuine FED. Still browsing the Canons... they look like great cameras, but I'm just a sucker for pre-WW2 styling, so they don't really "click" for me.

Bounty wrote:I know pretty much nothing about Canons but the ones you suggested are interesting. Maybe it is time to branch off into something other than old Russian crap The only thing that worries me is the electric metering in the Canonet.

It is obnoxious, and I was disappointed to find out how it was set up once I read through the manual. The only way to give yourself some control would be to spoof the meter by lying about the ASA of the film in the camera, but even then the camera will tend to select middling apertures.

Other than the -17, the Canonets are precursors to the auto-everything P&Ss, but their design, metal construction, and manual focus make them more appealing to me. They'd make good around-town snapshot cameras, I think.

In unrelated news, I got a roll of Reala 100 and a roll of Bergger 200 so my Hawkeye Flash and Autographic 2-C will go out for a spin in short order. Sadly, the nearest place that develops anything other than 35mm C-41 closed yesterday, and the next nearest is in a direction I seldom travel.

In unrelated news, I got a roll of Reala 100 and a roll of Bergger 200 so my Hawkeye Flash and Autographic 2-C will go out for a spin in short order. Sadly, the nearest place that develops anything other than 35mm C-41 closed yesterday, and the next nearest is in a direction I seldom travel.

Aha! Good news indeed. Can't wait to see what results you get. Is that 620?

It is obnoxious, and I was disappointed to find out how it was set up once I read through the manual. The only way to give yourself some control would be to spoof the meter by lying about the ASA of the film in the camera, but even then the camera will tend to select middling apertures.

That's a big no-no then. I tolerate the light meter on my Zenit because it doesn't get in the way, but I won't be forcibly second-guessed by a forty-year-old sensor.

Bounty wrote:Aha! Good news indeed. Can't wait to see what results you get. Is that 620?

The Hawkeye is 620, but I can make a 120 spool work in the supply side with only a little trimming. The 2-C is 116, but modifiable. Hawkeye'll get the color slides, and the 2-C the monochrome.

The 2-C is 116, but modifiable. Hawkeye'll get the color slides, and the 2-C the monochrome.

Because of the lens I assume?

Meanwhile, in stately Bounty manor, my search is circling the drain of success. I think I'm going to settle on a Leica copy, probably a FED, definitely a 1-series, now it's just a matter of finding a vintage that strikes the right balance between quality and cool.

Bounty wrote:Because of the lens I assume?

My Reala is ASA 100, so for a very limited EV range (13-14) it's just barely the right speed for the Hawkeye, which has a shutter fixed at 1/30 or 1/45. and an aperture fixed at f.16 or f.22. Anything faster would only work because of the latitude of negative films - and Reala is a transparency. I'm basically limited to bright daylight and timed exposure with this film, but 200 would be too fast altogether.

The 2-C, on the other hand, should be a bit more flexible because it has a variable aperture, although it was also designed for older (and therefore much slower) film. ASA 25 or 50 would be more appropriate, with 100 as an upper end.

I'll just have to see what happens.

Meanwhile, in stately Bounty manor, my search is circling the drain of success. I think I'm going to settle on a Leica copy, probably a FED, definitely a 1-series, now it's just a matter of finding a vintage that strikes the right balance between quality and cool.

Are they really that inconsistent from model to model?

What was wrong with the Leica-copy, other than the swastika? If anyone asks, just say a Hindu dude sold it to you.

Are they really that inconsistent from model to model?

Per-war models use a non-standard lens mount, post-war models have an ugly shutter button, the 1g has different shutter speeds and of course the older you go, the bigger than chance of damage. I'm trying to find one as old as possible in good condition for a good price and that's a balancing act.

What was wrong with the Leica-copy, other than the swastika?

Those copies are cobbled together from parts of various Russian cameras, probably won't work right, are about as authentic as a plastic Ark of the Covenant, and they HAVE A GODDAMN SS STAMP ON THEM.

I've thrown caution to the wind and bought an Argus C3. Late model, just before the Standard.