StarDestroyer.Net BBS

After several years of resisting the tide, I have finally decided to buy a digital camera.

After a bit of searching, I narrowed it down to three candidates:

a) Canon EOS Rebel XSI.

b) Nikon D 60

c) The Pentax K 200 D


I usually photograph three types of pictures:
- indoors, museum photography
- people walking (therefore, a quick autofocus is needed)
- portrait photography


Now, which one of those should I get? Has anybody had any experiences with these cameras or digital cameras at all?

Any input will be appreciated.

I have no experience with the Pentax, from what I understand it's good value and has good weather sealing for its price, but I'd still avoid it in favour of a Canon, Nikon or Olympus.
If you want to do a lot of indoor stuff, then you'll want good high ISO (light sensitivity) capabilities. Do you intend to print a lot of your photos for museum purposes? If so, i'd recomend going with the canon, it has more megapixels if you intend to make archival quality storages with every tiny fine detail. However, for normal usage (not pixel peeping), anything over ~8-10 Megapixels isn't a benefit in my opinion.

Canon has a superb (digital only) MAcro Lens, the EF-S 60mm 2.8, that would be perfect for your museum stuff, and would make a great portrait lense. Any decent zoom would work for people walking, a good Sigma or a Canon lens (What's your lens budget?).

As for the Nikon, are you aware of the upcoming Nikon D5000? It's an upgrade to the D60, it has the same guts as the D90, and from what i've seen it's a good deal better than the Canon (unless you really need the MP for big prints, as in larger than A2). Nikon also has an awesome Macro lens, the 70-210 lens, which is also a zoom (though it isn't as good at light gathering as the Canon prime), you could have a lot of fun with that.
I'd recomend going with the Nikon D5000, if you really want the D60, then wait a bit, it's price is going to plummet. The D5000 also has movie making capabilities if that interests you. (Also, the 18-200 Lens is fucking convenient and sweet. I'd go with Nikon for that alone, let alone the ergonomics which are supposed to be better than Canon's).

Anything else about your needs? Lens budget? Intended use in detail? (Hobbyist or for work?)

DEATH wrote:I have no experience with the Pentax, from what I understand it's good value and has good weather sealing for its price, but I'd still avoid it in favour of a Canon, Nikon or Olympus.

Olympus is out for memory card reasons. But is there a specific reason for why you'd avoid the pentax?

If you want to do a lot of indoor stuff, then you'll want good high ISO (light sensitivity) capabilities. Do you intend to print a lot of your photos for museum purposes?

No, they get used in powerpoint presentations or as illustrations in books.

As for the Nikon, are you aware of the upcoming Nikon D5000? It's an upgrade to the D60, it has the same guts as the D90, and from what i've seen it's a good deal better than the Canon (unless you really need the MP for big prints, as in larger than A2). Nikon also has an awesome Macro lens, the 70-210 lens, which is also a zoom (though it isn't as good at light gathering as the Canon prime), you could have a lot of fun with that.
I'd recomend going with the Nikon D5000, if you really want the D60, then wait a bit, it's price is going to plummet. The D5000 also has movie making capabilities if that interests you. (Also, the 18-200 Lens is fucking convenient and sweet. I'd go with Nikon for that alone, let alone the ergonomics which are supposed to be better than Canon's).

I have handled both Nikon and Conan, there wasn't that much of a difference IMO.

But the D5000 costs me about 400 Euros more, and I don't really want to spend that much. The prices for the cameras listed were all about 450-600 EUR, whereas the D5000 costs as least 900€ according to the catalogue.

Anything else about your needs?

Is there any difference in the focus quality? I noticed Conan using a five-point focus system, is there any benefit to that over the Nikon one?

Canon has a superb (digital only) MAcro Lens, the EF-S 60mm 2.8, that would be perfect for your museum stuff, and would make a great portrait lense. Any decent zoom would work for people walking, a good Sigma or a Canon lens (What's your lens budget?).

My lens budget is about up to 150$ for an extra lens, the standard lens would be included in the deals offered to me.

If anything, would you recommend me getting a good lens for zoom or for wide angle? My old non-digital lens (28-70mm, made by Sigma) had a good zoom and that worked fine for me.

Intended use in detail? (Hobbyist or for work?)

Both. I'll mostly use it to photograph museum pieces and a few of my friends dancing ballet, with the first one being used for my work as lecture materials. Other than those two special uses, I'll just use it as a normal camera.


I am also a bit confused as one salesman used to praise the pentax in great detail because apparently it is extra-special dust resistant. How much is dust a problem if the camera is probably locked away in the camera box? Is dust really that big of a problem and if it should happen, what are the costs of removing it from the sensor?

Thanas wrote:

DEATH wrote:I have no experience with the Pentax, from what I understand it's good value and has good weather sealing for its price, but I'd still avoid it in favour of a Canon, Nikon or Olympus.

Olympus is out for memory card reasons. But is there a specific reason for why you'd avoid the pentax?

Cheap 3d party lenses (Which you can't get easily with a pentax), or excellent first party lenses and flashes. Not to mention if you have support for the PEntax in your area (ISrael lacks it entirely).

If you want to do a lot of indoor stuff, then you'll want good high ISO (light sensitivity) capabilities. Do you intend to print a lot of your photos for museum purposes?

No, they get used in powerpoint presentations or as illustrations in books.

Illustrations? Awesome! At any rate, in that case you couldn't care less about MP count then.

As for the Nikon, are you aware of the upcoming Nikon D5000? It's an upgrade to the D60, it has the same guts as the D90, and from what i've seen it's a good deal better than the Canon (unless you really need the MP for big prints, as in larger than A2). Nikon also has an awesome Macro lens, the 70-210 lens, which is also a zoom (though it isn't as good at light gathering as the Canon prime), you could have a lot of fun with that.
I'd recomend going with the Nikon D5000, if you really want the D60, then wait a bit, it's price is going to plummet. The D5000 also has movie making capabilities if that interests you. (Also, the 18-200 Lens is fucking convenient and sweet. I'd go with Nikon for that alone, let alone the ergonomics which are supposed to be better than Canon's).

I have handled both Nikon and Conan, there wasn't that much of a difference IMO.

I found myself enjoying Nikons far, far more (Though I have a Canon), but fair nuff'

But the D5000 costs me about 400 Euros more, and I don't really want to spend that much. The prices for the cameras listed were all about 450-600 EUR, whereas the D5000 costs as least 900€ according to the catalogue.

The D5000 is very good though, and has considerably better Autofocus capabilities, better low light sensitivity, etc'. Your call, but I'd go for the d5000 in your case, or i'd wait for the D60's price to drop (due to it being replaced).

Anything else about your needs?

Is there any difference in the focus quality? I noticed Conan using a five-point focus system, is there any benefit to that over the Nikon one?

More focus points are better, although the speed of the system also matters. (The d5000 has 11 points), A five point system is "better" but I don't know if it's faster or more accurate.

Canon has a superb (digital only) MAcro Lens, the EF-S 60mm 2.8, that would be perfect for your museum stuff, and would make a great portrait lense. Any decent zoom would work for people walking, a good Sigma or a Canon lens (What's your lens budget?).

My lens budget is about up to 150$ for an extra lens, the standard lens would be included in the deals offered to me.

Hmm, not enough for the 60mm macro, pity. You could get the Canon 50mm 1.8 Plastic fantastic for that price though.
You might want to try negotiating with the vendor to swap the kit lens for something a bit better, a standard 3.5-5.6 kit lens is going to be crap for indoor low light use without a flash.

If anything, would you recommend me getting a good lens for zoom or for wide angle? My old non-digital lens (28-70mm, made by Sigma) had a good zoom and that worked fine for me.

Get a good zoom. Much more fun, more convenient and the difference in optical quality isn't something to bother you overmuch. (But as I said, you'll want a prime for cheap low light work).

Intended use in detail? (Hobbyist or for work?)

Both. I'll mostly use it to photograph museum pieces and a few of my friends dancing ballet, with the first one being used for my work as lecture materials. Other than those two special uses, I'll just use it as a normal camera.

Ballet is...Ouch. (Moving objects, indoors, low levels of lighting). Does your museum allow the use of a flash? If not, then as I said, you might find yourself needing low light capabilities, and a macro prime lense would be ideal (and relatively cheap) for that purpose, while also being a cheap "sorta zoom".

I am also a bit confused as one salesman used to praise the pentax in great detail because apparently it is extra-special dust resistant. How much is dust a problem if the camera is probably locked away in the camera box? Is dust really that big of a problem and if it should happen, what are the costs of removing it from the sensor?

Dust resistant is what I meant by weather sealing, namely less moisture or dust creeping in over time. It's not a problem to clean a camera sensor from small amounts of dust, just get a "lenspen"/puffer to blow the dust, or take it to be cleaned, shouldn't cost you more than 20$. You'll be using it in moisture free environs though, and not a lot of sand/dust either, so weather sealing is irrelevant to you.
Dust is a problem, but not tricky to remove, and shouldn't be much of concern to you unless your museums are unbelievably dusty & dilapidated or your name's Indiana Jones .

I have the prior version of the Canon Rebel (8 megapixels), and it's been a fantastic camera for me and the wife. I tested it against the equivalent, but $100 more expensive, Nikon. I found that the Canon focused a little bit faster, wrote its images to card at about the same rate (the quality of card makes a difference here), and its sustained frame rate when I held the shutter button down was a good 20% faster than the Nikon (D50 if I remember the model right). Another point in its favor was that the Canon accepts the same SD cards as my computers, LifeDrive, old Nikon Coolpix, mini movie camera, home DVD/CD/MP3 player, and GPS. I really didn't want another storage card format floating around the house.

Whichever one you pick, make sure you get a telephoto lens. My Rebel came with an 18-55mm lens, but we use a 55-200mm lens for any shots more than 50 feet away; it makes a huge difference, especially when compared to a point and shoot digital.

Except for the camera resolution and bag, this is the camera I have.

Well first off, thank you both for your very helpful comments. I am currently leaning towards the canon one.

DEATH wrote:I'd recomend going with the Nikon D5000, if you really want the D60, then wait a bit, it's price is going to plummet. The D5000 also has movie making capabilities if that interests you. (Also, the 18-200 Lens is fucking convenient and sweet. I'd go with Nikon for that alone, let alone the ergonomics which are supposed to be better than Canon's).

Well, the problem is I need it now and the price for the D5000 is simply too high IMO, especially as I do not use the camera that much. I shoot about 400 pictures a year, tops.

More focus points are better, although the speed of the system also matters. (The d5000 has 11 points), A five point system is "better" but I don't know if it's faster or more accurate.

Well, the Canon seems to be producing a bit more sharper pictures according to this.

Hmm, not enough for the 60mm macro, pity. You could get the Canon 50mm 1.8 Plastic fantastic for that price though.
You might want to try negotiating with the vendor to swap the kit lens for something a bit better, a standard 3.5-5.6 kit lens is going to be crap for indoor low light use without a flash.

Using the flash is no problem.

If you have experience with conan lenses, which one would you recommend for zoom or in general in that price range?

Ballet is...Ouch. (Moving objects, indoors, low levels of lighting). Does your museum allow the use of a flash? If not, then as I said, you might find yourself needing low light capabilities, and a macro prime lense would be ideal (and relatively cheap) for that purpose, while also being a cheap "sorta zoom".

Yeah, Ballet is pretty hard, but it is not something that I expect to work. Flash is usually no problem, if needed I can always get a special permit.

Dust resistant is what I meant by weather sealing, namely less moisture or dust creeping in over time. It's not a problem to clean a camera sensor from small amounts of dust, just get a "lenspen"/puffer to blow the dust, or take it to be cleaned, shouldn't cost you more than 20$. You'll be using it in moisture free environs though, and not a lot of sand/dust either, so weather sealing is irrelevant to you.
Dust is a problem, but not tricky to remove, and shouldn't be much of concern to you unless your museums are unbelievably dusty & dilapidated or your name's Indiana Jones .

Thank you, that was very helpful.

Turns out the salesman flat out lied, btw, because according to the tests I have read now the Pentax system is actually less advanced as the one used by Nikon or Canon.

Count Chocula wrote:Another point in its favor was that the Canon accepts the same SD cards as my computers, LifeDrive, old Nikon Coolpix, mini movie camera, home DVD/CD/MP3 player, and GPS. I really didn't want another storage card format floating around the house.

Yes, that was my reason for not considering the Olympus one.

Whichever one you pick, make sure you get a telephoto lens. My Rebel came with an 18-55mm lens, but we use a 55-200mm lens for any shots more than 50 feet away; it makes a huge difference, especially when compared to a point and shoot digital.

Thanks for the tip.

I have a Rebel XTi/400D. It's a fine little camera. Hook up the 50mm/1.8 lens to it and you'll be able to do most of what you want in your OP. As for ballet ... that'll be problematic. If you can't get relatively close (that lens is equivalent to an 80mm on that camera), you'll probably need a longer lens. Most consumer zooms won't cut it.

Pentax makes good cameras but their lens selection is a bit sparse and their future is a bit questionable. That said - the K200D is a fine camera, the in-body stabilization works well, and you can get the 50mm 1.4 for not a lot of money. It'll pretty much do everything you ask of ... with the caveat of the distance issue for ballet.

Thanas wrote:Well, the Canon seems to be producing a bit more sharper pictures according to this.

That minute difference is really irrelevant.

If you have experience with conan lenses, which one would you recommend for zoom or in general in that price range?

The kit 18-55mm IS lens is actually pretty good. It's equivalent to a 29-88mm lens on film.

Turns out the salesman flat out lied, btw, because according to the tests I have read now the Pentax system is actually less advanced as the one used by Nikon or Canon.

For what you're doing it's not really that important (except maybe for ballet).

Whichever one you pick, make sure you get a telephoto lens. My Rebel came with an 18-55mm lens, but we use a 55-200mm lens for any shots more than 50 feet away; it makes a huge difference, especially when compared to a point and shoot digital.

Thanks for the tip.

I'm going to be contrary here - for your intended purposes (save the ballet thing), a telephoto lens isn't really needed.

Thanas wrote: Using the flash is no problem.

You sure? It looks different with a flash, craps up the colours, and with an on-camera flash it's noticeably using a flash (especially up close, where there can be distorting shadows, unless you have an expensive external macro flash).

If you have experience with conan lenses, which one would you recommend for zoom or in general in that price range?

CANON! Not Conan!
You BARBARIAN . (Once is forgivable, but twice? )
For 150$? You won't be able to afford any decent zooms for that, get the Canon 50MM 1.8 Prime ("The plastic fantastic") and a kit lens for the zoom.

Also, from your description of your uses, I'd recomend the Canon. (Although again, a newer model, the T1i is coming out now, so wait for it to be released and the 450D's price to drop).

Ballet is...Ouch. (Moving objects, indoors, low levels of lighting). Does your museum allow the use of a flash? If not, then as I said, you might find yourself needing low light capabilities, and a macro prime lense would be ideal (and relatively cheap) for that purpose, while also being a cheap "sorta zoom".

Yeah, Ballet is pretty hard, but it is not something that I expect to work. Flash is usually no problem, if needed I can always get a special permit.

Give up on the ballet unless you intend to take portrait shots behind the scenes/stage. (Which is really fun).
Flash distorts, and SUCKS for close up object work.

Turns out the salesman flat out lied, btw, because according to the tests I have read now the Pentax system is actually less advanced as the one used by Nikon or Canon.

Wait, he tried to sell you that Pentax had better technology than canon or Nikon? Leika and Zeiss make better glass/lenses than Tamron or Sigma too btw .

Count Chocula wrote:Another point in its favor was that the Canon accepts the same SD cards as my computers, LifeDrive, old Nikon Coolpix, mini movie camera, home DVD/CD/MP3 player, and GPS. I really didn't want another storage card format floating around the house.

Yes, that was my reason for not considering the Olympus one.

Pretty damn good reason then.

phongn wrote: I'm going to be contrary here - for your intended purposes (save the ballet thing), a telephoto lens isn't really needed.

Yup, but a zoom lens period is needed, a man cannot learn on prime alone

DEATH wrote:

Thanas wrote: Using the flash is no problem.

You sure? It looks different with a flash, craps up the colours, and with an on-camera flash it's noticeably using a flash (especially up close, where there can be distorting shadows, unless you have an expensive external macro flash).

Sure it is noticeable, but I file that one under "things I have to live with".

If you have experience with conan lenses, which one would you recommend for zoom or in general in that price range?

CANON! Not Conan!
You BARBARIAN . (Once is forgivable, but twice? )

My mind must be doing quite the number on me (probably because I only got 2 hours of sleep last night).

For 150$? You won't be able to afford any decent zooms for that, get the Canon 50MM 1.8 Prime ("The plastic fantastic") and a kit lens for the zoom.

What are the advantages of that one?

Also, from your description of your uses, I'd recomend the Canon. (Although again, a newer model, the T1i is coming out now, so wait for it to be released and the 450D's price to drop).

No time, sorry. I Have to get read by next weekend.

Turns out the salesman flat out lied, btw, because according to the tests I have read now the Pentax system is actually less advanced as the one used by Nikon or Canon.

Wait, he tried to sell you that Pentax had better technology than canon or Nikon? Leika and Zeiss make better glass/lenses than Tamron or Sigma too btw .

I knew the last one, but like I said, I am a novice when it comes to digital cameras. I knew that my non-digital Pentax camera was of pretty high quality (unless it broke down after 12 years of faithful service). Out of curiosity, what is the tech hierarchy when it comes to digital cameras?




Yup, but a zoom lens period is needed, a man cannot learn on prime alone [/quote]

Thanas wrote:

If you have experience with conan lenses, which one would you recommend for zoom or in general in that price range?

CANON! Not Conan!
You BARBARIAN . (Once is forgivable, but twice? )

My mind must be doing quite the number on me (probably because I only got 2 hours of sleep last night).

Is there anything I should know about regarding new and groundbreaking archeological discoveries from the primordial origins of mankind? Any Stygian snake statues?

For 150$? You won't be able to afford any decent zooms for that, get the Canon 50MM 1.8 Prime ("The plastic fantastic") and a kit lens for the zoom.

What are the advantages of that one?

Prime lenses are cheap (usually/relatively), light, small, have excellent optical quality, great sharpness, colours, (lack of) vignetting, everything. Especially a massive F-stop (light gathering capabilities).
The disadvantage being that there's no zoom.

The plastic fantastic is a super cheap canon prime lens, 50mm, excellent optical quality (better than a 700$ Zoom). Only disadvantage is the shitty build quality (plastic), slow and noisy AF motor, and the aforementioned lack of zoom. There's a better 1.4 F version with a better (silent) ultrasonic focus motor, but that's around 400$).

Also, from your description of your uses, I'd recomend the Canon. (Although again, a newer model, the T1i is coming out now, so wait for it to be released and the 450D's price to drop).

No time, sorry. I Have to get read by next weekend.

Off with you then!

Turns out the salesman flat out lied, btw, because according to the tests I have read now the Pentax system is actually less advanced as the one used by Nikon or Canon.

Wait, he tried to sell you that Pentax had better technology than canon or Nikon? Leika and Zeiss make better glass/lenses than Tamron or Sigma too btw .

I knew the last one, but like I said, I am a novice when it comes to digital cameras. I knew that my non-digital Pentax camera was of pretty high quality (unless it broke down after 12 years of faithful service).
Out of curiosity, what is the tech hierarchy when it comes to digital cameras?

Not much of such a thing if you mean by company (Canon used to have a lead, and still does when it comes to noise in compact cameras), but all the camera companies are reasonably well matched baring a few exceptional exceptions.
If you mean tech wise:

• Medium Format digital (think 40,000$ cameras)
  [Big Difference]
• Full Frame (Sensor the same size as 35mm). Nikon D700, Nikon D3/D3x, Canon 1D series, Canon 5D.
  [Big Difference]
  1.3 Crop (Canon 1Ds)
• Crop (digital bodies, which is the majority of the market).
  [Big Difference]
• Compacts with big sensors (superzooms)
  Compacts with small sensors.
  [Big Difference]
• Cameras.

DEATH wrote:

Thanas wrote: My mind must be doing quite the number on me (probably because I only got 2 hours of sleep last night).

Is there anything I should know about regarding new and groundbreaking archeological discoveries from the primordial origins of mankind? Any Stygian snake statues?

Nah. Birthday party.

Other than that, I just want to thank everyone who participated in this thread, especially you. This thread was very, very informative.