Any conductors here?
Posted: 2005-08-03 10:28pm
I was wondering... are there any people here who have experience leading musical ensembles? Can be concert conducting, marching band/Drum Corps, etc.
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Heretic! Do you not know of the Z?!Hawkwings wrote:I was wondering... are there any people here who have experience leading musical ensembles? Can be concert conducting, marching band/Drum Corps, etc.
It's not Z, it's Zed!fgalkin wrote:Heretic! Do you not know of the Z?!
Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
Marching band advice? Oh goodness, I've got an extensive background with marching band at both the high school and college level. At the heart I'm a pit percussion instructor (and a damn good one at that), so I'm not anywhere near as strong with the drill side of things as I am with the music side of things, but I've done it all. It's sort of an addiction with me, actually. I started teaching high school pit when I was a sophomore in college and I've had a very hard time kicking the bug since then. I've taught just pit, pit and battery, whole band (music caption head), and written/arranged the pit score. I've also taught indoor percussion for three years, two of those years competing in the KIDA circuit (and kickin' some arse by breaking old high-scoring records, baby! Booyah!), which is related to regular ol' marching band but won't be terribly helpful if you're looking for drill advice since the indoor circuit is, well, indoors. (Shocking, I know!)Hawkwings wrote:so what sort of experience does Zaia have?
I'm actually looking for advice, as I'll be leading a marching band soon. I've already gotten advice from people around me, but I figure I'll ask here too, just in case.
Pitskie? That's cute. I call my students pitlets.Hawkwings wrote:Yes! Zaia's a Pitskie! And an arranger! And has done indoor percussion!
Ugh, drum major? Dude, why would you want that? It's a huge pain in the ass and honestly, almost no one will ever look at you, so you'll bust your butt for nothing, basically. And your friends will get pissy with you when you tell them what to do (at least sometimes they will). It's much more hassle and not nearly as educational as being pit section leader. Then again, I'm in favour of performing without a drum major full stop, so maybe I'm just a little bit biased...Anyways, my background:
I'm actually in high school right now, going to be either drum major or pit section leader, and as such, am expected to teach the rookies a lot of fundamentals during camp, along with all the other duties that I'm expected to do. I've done a season of marching band in pit, and a eason of winter percussion on snare, so I'm well-rounded on the percussion side of things.
Ok, so then you'll probably have 8-10 pit members, yah? Any idea how big the battery's going to be? Are there any rules about who can join the pit? Piano/keyboard experience? Another band instrument experience? Able to read music? Or do they just take anyone they can get? (I hate that. Makes people treat pit like it's a second-class section and it fucking rocks the socks off everyone else.)Our program is fairly competitive, we have a reputation for being the best in our division, and as such, we kinda have to live it to it. We've got a crew of about 60 people? Depends on the number of incoming.
Nice! I went to a few Cadets camps back when I was still of age to do junior corps, but ended up using the corps money I had to study abroad in Australia instead. But all the groups I've taught have had Cadets alumni teaching so corps-style groups are just about all I know.We are a corps-style band,
Good, I hate flashy crap. Talent goes much further.none of that flashy show stuff for us.
Oh, yeah, the techs who are either recent graduates or college kids who like to socialize and get the high school kids in trouble. I know their kind! Bastards.Our supreme lord marching band director defers his authority onto his marching band staff, of which there's likely going to be a visual instructor, battery instructor, pit instructor, and possibly several "floaters" that aren't paid and sorta don't do much.
My knowledge of marching tips is very limited, because I never had to teach my kids more than just basic marching technique. Roll the feet, starting on the heels, moving fluidly along the outside of the foot to the ball of the foot. That's a roll-step, and is the basic forward step. Backwards you keep on your toes, heels way way way up high--toes roll a tiny bit back onto the ball of the foot, but no more than that. That's very important because backwards technique is hard and really important when it's rainy and the field is wet and slippery. Keep on your toes and you'll stay upright; if you use too much of the rest of your foot, you'll probably fall. For the battery (not sure if you have to deal with their marching or not), the bass drums (and cymbal players, if you have them--bleh) will use regular marching technique because they should all be turned so their drum heads are facing toward the sideline, but the snare and tenors will probably crap-step. I don't know if y'all do left-foot step-offs or right-foot step-offs, but either way, the drummers who face forward will have keep their calves (or ankles, depending on whether you're marching 8-to-5 intervals or something else). Other than that, even spacing for all so no one trips over anyone else, and that just about exhausts my knowledge of marching technique. Unless we get into all the bits about standing at attention... *grins evilly*So basically, my question is, do you have tips for teaching basics, both for marching and pit?
Do you know Kraus scales? That's what I teach first, the C major Kraus scale (form I), but before that I meticulously go through proper technique. I'm sure you've been taught some technique already, but this is what I teach: Feet should be shoulder-width apart, knees slightly bent, body facing flat toward the keyboard, arms loose, elbows just slightly away from your sides--then onto the grip. The mallet itself should lay diagnally across your hand, with it touching the top knuckle of your pointer finger and at the base of your pinkie where it connects to your hand. When you curl your fingers around the shaft of the mallet, the mallet should stay between the top knuckle of your pointer finger and the pad of your thumb. That's your fulcrum, and that has to be the strongest part of your grip. You should be able to hold the mallet with just your fulcrum, and be able to wiggle the mallet some without it falling out from between your pointer finger and thumb. After you check to see if you can do that, lightly curl the rest of your fingers around the shaft, keeping your fulcrum tight and the rest of your fingers pretty loose, with the mallet angled to fall where your pinkie meets your hand. Only an inch or two of mallet should stick out from the back of your hand. Once the grip is good, turn your hands so they're flat--palms facing straight down to the ground (if you can't see your pinkie knuckle, they aren't flat enough, and if your pitlets can't see their pinkie knuckles, you can draw a circle or a flower or a tiny smiley face or something on their pinkie knuckle and tell them that their hands are only flat enough when they can see whatever art you created on their hand).On pit, specifically it's introducing them to a new instrument, the keyboard.
Grip on timps is the same as keyboard mallets and matched grip for snare drum (ahh, the beauty of not playing traditional! I hate traditional grip--no educational value except that it's fun and looks cool, otherwise it's worthless and potentially harmful). If you have someone in the pit who plays a string instrument or who is gifted with a strong musical ear, put him/her on timps because tuning will come easiest to someone who's either naturally good at tuning or who's had to practice tuning constantly (like a cellist who has to use his/her ear to tune instead of just pressing down a fingering to get the right note). Playing position on the timpani is the section of head right over the pedal, about 2-3 inches in from the rim of the drum (except on the smallest drum, the 23" drum is more like 1-2 inches from the rim). Rolls on the timps are all single stroke, so don't let any snare drummers do buzz rolls or double-stroke rolls on them.Oh, and timpani, I've never played those much and have no idea how to teach for it.
I have, actually. I'm contemplating a move at the moment, and I did consider Oregon before I figured that, if I was going to spend $500 on a 5-hour flight to my new home, I'd rather live in the UK.Oh, and finally... ever considered moving to Oregon?
Oklahoma? What on earth for?!Our pro completely awesomely good pit instructor/arranger moved to Oklahoma to start a new music store right after he finished writing out parts for us...
It is important to keep in mind that there are three methods of playing: French, German, and American. For French, the mallets are primarily gripped by the thumb and forefinger with the thumb facing up. The hands are closer together and the player relies highly on the bounce off of the head. With German, the pamls face down and much more of the stroke comes from the wrist. American is a sort of in between the two.Zaia wrote:Grip on timps is the same as keyboard mallets and matched grip for snare drumOh, and timpani, I've never played those much and have no idea how to teach for it.
Perhaps this is true in the realm of marching percussion, but I tend to dissagree for anything else. Within the drumset context, it offers another approach to the kit. I personally find it more comfortable to play with in the jazz context and even in harder contexts such as funk. I have also seen numerous people use it within an orchestral context. Potentially harmful? Only if you're really doing it wrong. In that case, though, it doesn't matter how you do it, you will get hurt.(ahh, the beauty of not playing traditional! I hate traditional grip--no educational value except that it's fun and looks cool, otherwise it's worthless and potentially harmful).
Yes, but if the kid is teaching timpani for the first time, he should stick with the grip that is the same for all three main percussion instruments. Why make things more complicated right now by adding French and American grips to the list of stuff for him to go over with kids brand new to percussion? One of the big perks of teaching the German timp grip and the matched snare grip is that it's faster learning for students because they're the same as the mallet grip. From what he wrote, Hawkwings doesn't have a pit instructor so he's it for now. Teaching kids who don't know anything about timpani all three grips is a waste of valuable time. In another setting, no, but in marching band, at this point in the season, and without an instructor, it would be.Saurencaerthai wrote:It is important to keep in mind that there are three methods of playing: French, German, and American. For French, the mallets are primarily gripped by the thumb and forefinger with the thumb facing up. The hands are closer together and the player relies highly on the bounce off of the head. With German, the pamls face down and much more of the stroke comes from the wrist. American is a sort of in between the two.
Well, marching percussion is what we're discussing.Perhaps this is true in the realm of marching percussion, but I tend to dissagree for anything else.
In the marching setting, the fad of the past decade or so has been to play traditional on flat drums, fully extended to perpendicular. You do that for a few weeks and let me know how your left wrist feels.Within the drumset context, it offers another approach to the kit. I personally find it more comfortable to play with in the jazz context and even in harder contexts such as funk. I have also seen numerous people use it within an orchestral context. Potentially harmful? Only if you're really doing it wrong. In that case, though, it doesn't matter how you do it, you will get hurt.
I fail to see what is so diffacult about showing them the three methods during a lesson and saying "Why don't you try each of these a little bit this week and see if one feels better than another?" They then can mess around and see what feels better. If they find one they like better, go with that one. If they have no preference, it's up to you. I know it can be a very personal thing, seeing as while I play French most of the time, I have a friend who will only play German.Zaia wrote:Yes, but if the kid is teaching timpani for the first time, he should stick with the grip that is the same for all three main percussion instruments. Why make things more complicated right now by adding French and American grips to the list of stuff for him to go over with kids brand new to percussion? One of the big perks of teaching the German timp grip and the matched snare grip is that it's faster learning for students because they're the same as the mallet grip. From what he wrote, Hawkwings doesn't have a pit instructor so he's it for now. Teaching kids who don't know anything about timpani all three grips is a waste of valuable time. In another setting, no, but in marching band, at this point in the season, and without an instructor, it would be.
During the school year I do at least an hour of just exercises on a flat, hard practice pad using traditional grip. The only time I EVER had trouble was during a period where I accidentally practiced some bad technique. Otherwise, my wrists feel great.Zaia wrote: In the marching setting, the fad of the past decade or so has been to play traditional on flat drums, fully extended to perpendicular. You do that for a few weeks and let me know how your left wrist feels.
Put your hand on the head and make the vibrations stop. Granted, you don't have to put your hand dead center, but experiment a little bit to see what works best for each person. I personally just rest the heel of my hand on the head.Hawkwings wrote: Oh yes, how do you properly mute a timp?
Based on the nine years I've taught pit and the three years I've taught indoor percussion, I know that if you have too many newbies learning everything from scratch at the beginning of the season (which this is), their little brains all shut down from overload. So, if the choice of grip was going to be up to Hawkwings here (which apparently it isn't since he isn't going to instruct them during the season like it originally sounded), then starting them all out with German and then getting into the other grips later in the season with those students who will actually play timpani during the year (because it will probably only be a couple of students) is the way to go, in my opinion. Yes, overall, of course they should all know all of the grips, but at this point in the season, dealing with new students and a student leader who himself has no personal experience on the instrument? You deal with what you know, which is matched grip, aka German.Saurencaerthai wrote:I fail to see what is so diffacult about showing them the three methods during a lesson and saying "Why don't you try each of these a little bit this week and see if one feels better than another?" They then can mess around and see what feels better. If they find one they like better, go with that one. If they have no preference, it's up to you. I know it can be a very personal thing, seeing as while I play French most of the time, I have a friend who will only play German.
Exercises on your own and roughly 30 hours a week of intense marching band rehearsal are two completely different things. Again, from my own fairly extensive marching band experience, I've seen enough injuries to be able to sway die-hard traditional fans (meaning the directors and battery instructors I've worked with) into trying and ultimately staying with matched grip for marching band.During the school year I do at least an hour of just exercises on a flat, hard practice pad using traditional grip. The only time I EVER had trouble was during a period where I accidentally practiced some bad technique. Otherwise, my wrists feel great.
Pit pigs down here...we needed to play it up, since we had a huge band. I think my musicians wanted to kill me after I kept telling them at least half of what the audience will "hear" is how big your movements are.Zaia wrote:Pitskie? That's cute. I call my students pitlets.Hawkwings wrote:Yes! Zaia's a Pitskie! And an arranger! And has done indoor percussion!
Why would you ever want to be drum major? It takes you away from the performance of the actual music, and makes you a human metronome. There's a reason we invented those damn things . Of course, I'm probably biased too, since I was pit captain (we elevated it to being equal with battery captain since the sections were both large).Ugh, drum major? Dude, why would you want that? It's a huge pain in the ass and honestly, almost no one will ever look at you, so you'll bust your butt for nothing, basically. And your friends will get pissy with you when you tell them what to do (at least sometimes they will). It's much more hassle and not nearly as educational as being pit section leader. Then again, I'm in favour of performing without a drum major full stop, so maybe I'm just a little bit biased...Anyways, my background:
I'm actually in high school right now, going to be either drum major or pit section leader, and as such, am expected to teach the rookies a lot of fundamentals during camp, along with all the other duties that I'm expected to do. I've done a season of marching band in pit, and a eason of winter percussion on snare, so I'm well-rounded on the percussion side of things.
60 for percussion, or 60 total? I marched in a band of ~350, with 12-15 pit depending on the year. We unfortunately didn't have rules for who could do pit. We only ever got one person who hadn't done music before, and he learned quick. Mostly we got double-reed players, and were glad to get bassoonists because they could read bass clef.Ok, so then you'll probably have 8-10 pit members, yah? Any idea how big the battery's going to be? Are there any rules about who can join the pit? Piano/keyboard experience? Another band instrument experience? Able to read music? Or do they just take anyone they can get? (I hate that. Makes people treat pit like it's a second-class section and it fucking rocks the socks off everyone else.)Our program is fairly competitive, we have a reputation for being the best in our division, and as such, we kinda have to live it to it. We've got a crew of about 60 people? Depends on the number of incoming.
Our percussion director was smart...he hired the best of the graduates (usually ex-officers) to be techs. I think every single one of our techs was ex-corps. Two had been with Magic, one with Crusaders, one with Scouts, and one was a Senior Corps guy, but I don't recall who with.Oh, yeah, the techs who are either recent graduates or college kids who like to socialize and get the high school kids in trouble. I know their kind! Bastards.Our supreme lord marching band director defers his authority onto his marching band staff, of which there's likely going to be a visual instructor, battery instructor, pit instructor, and possibly several "floaters" that aren't paid and sorta don't do much.
I always found it helpful to split the step into triplets. Heel-arch-toe, heel-arch-toe. It takes a bit to get used to, but if you're ok with hemiola patterns, it'll make your steps more even.My knowledge of marching tips is very limited, because I never had to teach my kids more than just basic marching technique. Roll the feet, starting on the heels, moving fluidly along the outside of the foot to the ball of the foot. That's a roll-step, and is the basic forward step. Backwards you keep on your toes, heels way way way up high--toes roll a tiny bit back onto the ball of the foot, but no more than that. That's very important because backwards technique is hard and really important when it's rainy and the field is wet and slippery. Keep on your toes and you'll stay upright; if you use too much of the rest of your foot, you'll probably fall. For the battery (not sure if you have to deal with their marching or not), the bass drums (and cymbal players, if you have them--bleh) will use regular marching technique because they should all be turned so their drum heads are facing toward the sideline, but the snare and tenors will probably crap-step. I don't know if y'all do left-foot step-offs or right-foot step-offs, but either way, the drummers who face forward will have keep their calves (or ankles, depending on whether you're marching 8-to-5 intervals or something else). Other than that, even spacing for all so no one trips over anyone else, and that just about exhausts my knowledge of marching technique. Unless we get into all the bits about standing at attention... *grins evilly*So basically, my question is, do you have tips for teaching basics, both for marching and pit?
Or tangling your partner, if you're playing two people to a marimba. I got my hand broken that way, so don't do it.*snip*On pit, specifically it's introducing them to a new instrument, the keyboard.
As for playing areas on the keyboard instruments, on the natural keys you should stay over the resonators, and for the accidentals, in the center of the bar too (if it's slow enough and you have time to reach that far). Otherwise you want to strike the key directly between the very edge and the node (where the string is thread through the key). It should be a smooth, legato motion, but make sure the rebound is still quick. If your rebound stroke doesn't bounce right back up, you run the risk of tangling yourself in your mallets when you play at faster tempos.
I actually prefer French grip for quiet playing, but German is best for beginners and for "outdoor" timpani playing. I find it gives me a little more control if I'm trying to play soft. It's basically the timapni grip Z described with the hand rotated 90 degrees so the thumb faces up. It's a little harder to learn, and I'm notorious for switching grips with dynamics, but I find I get a better rebound off most timpani at the lower dynamic levels. Also, a good timpanist should be able to (eventually) tune all his/her timpani off just one note, since they need to be able to hear intervals for on-the-fly tuning, and be able to tune without striking an audible note. I've used two ways of doing this: first is to "pop" a note by placing a finger on the head and lifting it quickly (it's hard to describe without showing it...), and the second, which requires incredibly good pitch, is to hum the note into the drumhead and tune until it resonates the note back. When tuning, if you go above the note, don't try to push back down. Drop below the note you need and go up again, or else you will be flat after a couple strokes even if you're on pitch to begin with.Grip on timps is the same as keyboard mallets and matched grip for snare drum (ahh, the beauty of not playing traditional! I hate traditional grip--no educational value except that it's fun and looks cool, otherwise it's worthless and potentially harmful). If you have someone in the pit who plays a string instrument or who is gifted with a strong musical ear, put him/her on timps because tuning will come easiest to someone who's either naturally good at tuning or who's had to practice tuning constantly (like a cellist who has to use his/her ear to tune instead of just pressing down a fingering to get the right note). Playing position on the timpani is the section of head right over the pedal, about 2-3 inches in from the rim of the drum (except on the smallest drum, the 23" drum is more like 1-2 inches from the rim). Rolls on the timps are all single stroke, so don't let any snare drummers do buzz rolls or double-stroke rolls on them.Oh, and timpani, I've never played those much and have no idea how to teach for it.
For a quick dampen (such as at the end of a song), you can put more on the head. The arm up to the elbow was about the most I could do easily. You don't want to put weight on it, though. For general muting, release your bottom three fingers from the mallet, hold the mallet tight, and place the fingertips and thumbtip on the head without letting the shaft of the mallet touch (it will almost certainly buzz in my experience).Saurencaerthai wrote:Put your hand on the head and make the vibrations stop. Granted, you don't have to put your hand dead center, but experiment a little bit to see what works best for each person. I personally just rest the heel of my hand on the head.Hawkwings wrote:Oh yes, how do you properly mute a timp?