[Bullet Design] Boredom, Insomnia, and The Muse...

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-02-01 03:49am

I got bored...

Pretty self-explanatory. I'll elaborate on it tomorrow after I wake up. Now, sleep...

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2006-02-01 04:13am

It's a triumph in post-modernist design.

AMX · Post by **AMX** » 2006-02-01 06:19am

Looks nice at first glance...

Calibre?
Any special reason for the tungsten carbide? Last I checked, SOTA was tungsten-nickel-iron. (Cost, maybe?)

Also, the ballistic tip looks a bit long to me - moves the COG pretty far back, which can't be good for stable flight.
Plus, I kinda doubt it'd break off when hitting a soft target. (Should work nicely against body armor, though.)

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2006-02-01 09:40am

Hmm, that's odd. Firefox is reading the black as white, or maybe as transparent. You guys know if that's a settings issue?

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-02-01 09:40am

Gegh, I set black as transparent thinking I'd inline the thing...

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2006-02-01 10:51am

Looks very similar to an APFSDS tank round, and it reminds me of a round i saw ages ago where the outer jacket was actually solid propellant, one of the first caseless rounds made.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-02-01 10:58am

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:Looks very similar to an APFSDS tank round, and it reminds me of a round i saw ages ago where the outer jacket was actually solid propellant, one of the first caseless rounds made.

There's a thought, Kenny. I don't know how I'd go about making it caseless, however. It's actually an APDS because it still gets spun by rifling in the barrel to stabilize it.

AMX · Post by **AMX** » 2006-02-01 11:13am

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:There's a thought, Kenny. I don't know how I'd go about making it caseless, however.

Did somebody just call me?
I think I heard the words "make it caseless"...

Generally, you'd either set the whole thing into the charge the same way you'd do with a normal bullet (optionally either "traditional", protruding from the front of the propellant block, or "telescoped"), or you add a protrusion at the base of the sabot, and stick that into the propellant.
Add a combustible ignitor (and a booster element, if necessary), and you're done from the ammunition side.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-02-01 08:13pm

Are there any ballistics or ammunition experts in the house? I'd like to eventually make this design should I come into possession of swaging equipment...

nickolay1 · Post by **nickolay1** » 2006-02-01 09:38pm

Which tools did you employ to design it?

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-02-01 09:55pm

nickolay1 wrote:Which tools did you employ to design it?

MSPaint, my eyeball, and my brain. I shit you not.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2006-02-01 11:01pm

. . .

Okay, seriously Einy; that's fucking awesome. You're not a MSPaint Artist, but rather an MSPaint God.

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2006-02-02 03:12pm

For my old friend Einy, I thought I should knock up a little representation of his bullet for him. I added a case for the propellant, and made a case less version too with a slightly elongated sabot made of solid propellant.

AMX · Post by **AMX** » 2006-02-02 04:10pm

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:...a case less version too with a slightly elongated sabot made of solid propellant.

I have to object to this version.
Propellant is inherently unsuited as sabot material, for reasons which are hopefully obvious upon careful reflection.

Of course, the graphic is perfectly fine as a representation of caseless ammunition (using the ballistic tip + reverse ogive configuration of Einy's design) - but it would be neither APDS, nor could the bullet be made from very hard material (it wouldn't take the rifling).

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2006-02-02 04:34pm

Ford Prefect wrote:It's a triumph in post-modernist design.

The style, the verve, the expression...

Seriously though, I'm just here to drool at the Einster's MS Paint skills and Kenny's ability to whip up those purty graphics so quickly. Pardon me.

*Drools*

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2006-02-02 06:01pm

Okay, yeah, I have to agree. You guys both rock.

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2006-02-02 08:10pm

AMX wrote:
Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:...a case less version too with a slightly elongated sabot made of solid propellant.
I have to object to this version.
Propellant is inherently unsuited as sabot material, for reasons which are hopefully obvious upon careful reflection.

Of course, the graphic is perfectly fine as a representation of caseless ammunition (using the ballistic tip + reverse ogive configuration of Einy's design) - but it would be neither APDS, nor could the bullet be made from very hard material (it wouldn't take the rifling).

I have to agree that it's not the best sabot material around, indeed it wouldn't act as one at all really, but it makes for an interesting idea. A weapon with a breech that could handle lots of propellant and firing such a small projectile would undoubtedly be quite vicious to be on the wrong end of, and yet could be made fairly compact.

Please dont give any plaudits for making a bullet in a 3D program, it took 10 minutes to make both versions. All I did was draw outlines around Einy's picture and then 'lathe' the bits into cylinders. I then apply some preset textures and tweak a bit, et voila. I've been doing some rush jobs for a Canadian investigative TV series and this was a sigh in the breeze compared to making large detailed, textured and lit UFOs in a couple of hours.

Pcm979 · Post by **Pcm979** » 2006-02-02 08:26pm

It's still twenty billion times more than I can do, so I'm going to continue drooling.

*Continues drooling*

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2006-02-03 09:03pm

Propellant complaints aside, the little ridge on the tail is an unnecessary detail, and really just another surface for dirt to stick to during manufacturing. Also, I can't imagine what kind of nightmare it would be chambering that round...

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2006-02-04 07:03pm

Really, the drool-worthyness of those pics is based entirely on the software used. A twenty minute tutorial with the same software and you could do nearly as well. Not that Kenny is lacking in ability, of course.

Not knowing much about these things, I still ask, would it be possible to somehow structurally weaken the tip so that it is broken through on impact with softer targets? Also, rather than making the sabot out of propellent in the caseless round, couldn't you simply make it out of a somewhat slower-burning material, so that it's gone before it hits the ground? I'm assuming that's the point of not using the standard sabot in the first place. And if the CoM is too far back, would the better solution be to change the tip, or to cut off the back of the core?

Say, Einy, whatever happened to that Star Wars-ish ship with the two huge guns and the fins? Did I miss the finished product?

Kenny_10_Bellys · Post by **Kenny_10_Bellys** » 2006-02-04 08:55pm

I'm not sure an amour piercing round needs a soft/frangible tip, isn't it kind of redundant with a sabot anyway? Most uses of sabot are so that a very hard, thin needle of a projectile can be given a helluva force? The instant it's out the gun barrel the sabot has done it's job, and once it falls away you have a needle moving at almost the same speed as a much larger, less piercing round.

I think it might take a little more than 10 minutes to get the hang of Lightwave and make a bullet and a rendering, but Alan Bolte is right in principal. I'm surprised more folks dont learn 3D packages, it's coolness waiting for you to make it happen.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-02-04 09:20pm

Kenny_10_Bellys wrote:Please dont give any plaudits for making a bullet in a 3D program, it took 10 minutes to make both versions. All I did was draw outlines around Einy's picture and then 'lathe' the bits into cylinders. I then apply some preset textures and tweak a bit, et voila. I've been doing some rush jobs for a Canadian investigative TV series and this was a sigh in the breeze compared to making large detailed, textured and lit UFOs in a couple of hours.

You traced it and turned it into a spline by rotating it around the X axis, in other words. I'm thinking there's a direction we can go with this caseless bit, but not like you'd think.

I also redesigned the reverse ogive on the penetrator.

Long Caseless

Telescoped Caseless

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2006-02-07 09:26pm

Alan Bolte wrote:Not knowing much about these things, I still ask, would it be possible to somehow structurally weaken the tip so that it is broken through on impact with softer targets?

It would be, and such cartridges exist, but this would make the round useless against body armour, and the limited frangible effect could be achieved far better with a shotgun. Or even just a JHP (EDIT: referring to the wound cavity)

Also, rather than making the sabot out of propellent in the caseless round, couldn't you simply make it out of a somewhat slower-burning material, so that it's gone before it hits the ground? I'm assuming that's the point of not using the standard sabot in the first place. And if the CoM is too far back, would the better solution be to change the tip, or to cut off the back of the core?

The propellant provides the casing, not the sabot. A sabot by nature has to be a hard material which prevents the bullet from contacting the barrel during firing, and so you can't reliably use a flammable material. Also, you'd lose a lot of muzzle energy by not having all the propellant burn at once.

Finally, with that bullet shape, there shouldn't be any real problems related to the centre of mass.

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2006-02-07 10:16pm

Er, I meant the ballistic tip that's supposed to break off, not the tip of the bullet itself.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2006-02-08 08:10pm

Alan Bolte wrote:Er, I meant the ballistic tip that's supposed to break off, not the tip of the bullet itself.

Oh, I see what you mean. In any case, it would still cut down on penetration a bit, as the rest of the bullet would have to pass through that tip following impact, and it would absorb a bunch of the force. Also, it would only break on harder targets and not softer ones anyway.