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Here's a subject I've wanted to ask for a while now, the trouble is, I'm never sure how to phrase it.

What prompted it is whenever a subject arises regarding black social issues, Gangsta Rap is always brought up by multiple people, and usually treated liek it contributes to ongoing stereotypes and perhaps encourages the kids to act like the characters in the MC's lyrical fantasy.

For instance, no offence aimed at stravo, but a good example, from N+P:

Stravo wrote:For instance the Hip Hop Gangsta culture. Do we see any widespread movement to denounce the messages coming out of hip hop directed to black youth? The degredation of women, the romantacizing of the drug dealer/criminal element, the rejection of 'white' culture which ironically enough transaltes into education and jobs.

No. Instead we see passionate defenses of 'their' music when criticism is leveled by whites or other groups.

Now, I've never read anything lyrically in Gangsta Rap that remotely approaches some of the stuff in Death Metal. I mean, listening to the Cannibal Corpse live album, the singer says before a song, "This next song is for all the women out there <women in crowd cheer>, this song is... FUCKED WITH A KNIFE!" Glorification of the disturbing, taboo and grotesque has been popular in extreme metal at least since Slayer, but the only people that consistently complain about it are far right christian groups.

Still, a severe minority expect metalheads to go around acting on their preferred music's lyrical fantasy.White-boy death metallers such as myself are found in all walks of life, is it just harder to stigmatise listeners (though goth and hippie stereotypes do crop up)?

So why is this? Is there a perception that blacks are just more given to suggestion due to music? Is it just an easy and popular target? Why do people feel the need to condemn "All these niggaz and all these hos" by Trippy McG-Face and completely ignore "Necropedophile" by Cannibal Corpse? Too OTT and obviously tongue in cheek?

Is Death Metal even remotely as popular as Hip Hop and Gangsta Rap? I think that lies at the heart of the argument that many people lay against rap and hip hop. Death Metal appeals to a far smaller cross section of kids - mostly white suburban - while Hop Hop and Rap have exploded and become 'the' musical movement in particular among urban youth.

I can't even think of the last Death metal video I've seen on TV but you bet I've been deluged with Hip Hop rap videos from Snoop Dogg to Puff Daddy to 50 Cent and the Game.

Urban kids are out there trying to 'keep it real.' and dressing like their heroes and talking about bitches and ho's while yearning to have the Cristal and Navigators instead of the corporate job that will pay for a family and life outside the hood.

Stravo wrote:Is Death Metal even remotely as popular as Hip Hop and Gangsta Rap? I think that lies at the heart of the argument that many people lay against rap and hip hop. Death Metal appeals to a far smaller cross section of kids - mostly white suburban - while Hop Hop and Rap have exploded and become 'the' musical movement in particular among urban youth.

I can't even think of the last Death metal video I've seen on TV but you bet I've been deluged with Hip Hop rap videos from Snoop Dogg to Puff Daddy to 50 Cent and the Game.

Urban kids are out there trying to 'keep it real.' and dressing like their heroes and talking about bitches and ho's while yearning to have the Cristal and Navigators instead of the corporate job that will pay for a family and life outside the hood.

That is the telling line.. Video exposure and Top 40 radio play

Also, due to its subject matter, death metal is very much indie and underground. It has nowhere near the prominence that rap has. Also note that in the States there's not much of it at all; it's more common in Europe. I'd be rather interested to explore the reasons behind all this, actually, given the interesting contrast we have here...

Death Metal Pfffuh, Wimps's Music

Maybe some Black Metal are really beginning to cross the line (check Zero Tolerance By Impaled Nazarene for exemple or what's written on the first album of emperor)

NSBM that's what i call outrageous

No Cannibal Corpse Songs ca match the complete violence of any seigneur Voland "chants"

Gangsta rap, while exaggerated, is generally a lot more realistic. Violence against women is a lot more credible than skull-fucking one's sacrifice to Satan or summoning Cthulhu-esque beasts from beyond the tortured veil of sanity.

Wasn't it in Norway where Black Metal fans went around burning churches and desicrating graves? Also, wasn't Emperor's drummer imprisoned for actually killing a gay guy? It's been awhile since I've paid attention to the Black metal scene, but it's pretty hardcore, at least in Scandanavian Europe, if I'm not mistaken.

More to the point, I'd bet that most people who despise hip-hop also hate death metal. I certainly do. So if one is looking for evidence of a double-standard, he won't find it here.

Mlenk wrote:Also, wasn't Emperor's drummer imprisoned for actually killing a gay guy?

Still in jail, AFAIK. Let's not forget about what went down with Mayhem, also. Dead committed suicide, Hellhammer made a necklace of his skull fragments, and Euronymous reportedly ate some of his brain. Count Grishnackh then murdered Euronymous. But they're still going strong and have a new album due out this year, with Atilla back at the mic. And yes, Mayhem is the band where a fan got their skull fractured by a flying sheep's head at one of their shows.

I'm a big-time black/death metal fan, and I have to agree with Darth Wong about how most people who despise hip-hop also despise death metal. The reaction I usually get is the classic "that noise isn't music!" And I also think that it's rare that someone is a fan of both.

it's pretty hardcore

It was pretty hardcore
after the incarceration of Vikernes and Faust for their respective murder, the BM scene stopped most of their shits. As i said, the NSBM scene took the place for violent actions and most of the time NSBM is distributed by their own network. They have no or very few relation with the mainstream Black Metal scene.

Wasn't it in Norway where Black Metal fans went around burning churches and desicrating graves

it wasn't fans, the movement was iniated by Euronymous of Mayhem and Samoth from Emperor. The group was called the Inner Circle IIRC . Around the same time in france, a jewish grave in Carpentras was desacrated by Members of the band Blessed in Sin, but we never knew if it was because of Black Metal or because of their Neo-Nazi leaning.

there is a book about the subject called Lord of Chaos

Darth Quorthon wrote:

Mlenk wrote:Also, wasn't Emperor's drummer imprisoned for actually killing a gay guy?

Still in jail, AFAIK. Let's not forget about what went down with Mayhem, also. Dead committed suicide, Hellhammer made a necklace of his skull fragments, and Euronymous reportedly ate some of his brain. Count Grishnackh then murdered Euronymous. But they're still going strong and have a new album due out this year, with Atilla back at the mic. And yes, Mayhem is the band where a fan got their skull fractured by a flying sheep's head at one of their shows.

Heh, I don't like most black metal, I mean, people say it's hate-filled an minimalistic, but what they really mean is it's got little to no technicality and recorded in a tin dustbin, outside the studio, down a well. There are rare gems, though, whenever a band goes "post black metal" they sound fucking cool, because they tend to fuse decent playing, hate, and importantly, good production, with more electronics and industrial.

I've heard mayhem's gone this way, so I'll check their new album out when it comes out, latest emperor stuff is much better, in my opinion.

I'm a big-time black/death metal fan, and I have to agree with Darth Wong about how most people who despise hip-hop also despise death metal. The reaction I usually get is the classic "that noise isn't music!" And I also think that it's rare that someone is a fan of both.

I'm such a rarity, though the rap I like is fairly limited, mainly Run DMC, and I grudgingly like eminem, though i don't have any of his songs or albums.

NSBM is hardly unique, and I don't think it deserves it's own genre. There's a whole extra musical world of white power hate bands. They run the gamut from thrash metal to hardcore punk, to dance, madonna-esque pop artists, country and western...

But yes, for the original topic, am I just seeing racism where none exists? I mean, it is a mainly black crowd that listens to and creates rap, and white for the death/black metal, and yes, rap is much more popular, but there certainly are deaths connected to death metal and black metal, but as a listener, I can safely say people that are that influenced by it are already nuts and the music itself isn't really a contributing problem. At least, not on the scales rap is usually painted as.

But I rarely see "rap is just music, if a kid is so inspired by it he goes out and deals crack and shoots up some people, that hardly means it played a significant part in his choice, the parents/social services etc should've helped them first" it's usually, "it's sending out bad messages, it sounds bad, etc."

So, how much influence does rap have, on the mentality of the young black men that listen to it and opt for a life of crime, in your opinion?

Darth Quorthon wrote: I'm a big-time black/death metal fan, and I have to agree with Darth Wong about how most people who despise hip-hop also despise death metal. The reaction I usually get is the classic "that noise isn't music!" And I also think that it's rare that someone is a fan of both.

All I can say is I'm a musical schizophrenic.... In my CD collection you'll find everything ranging from Miles Davis, Chopin, Dr Dre and Snoop Dogg, Emperor, Nile, Iron Maiden to DJ Shadow.