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This was originally going to be the basis of a post in the vent thread, but at the last minute I decided to redo it as an actual thread.

I've been watching TCM tonight, as I do more or less continuously, and they've been playing a series of Jeanette MacDonald films (who I'll admit up-front I don't like very much) from the 1930s and 40s.

Most of these films contain a musical aspect to some degree or another, particularly singing, and that singing is done in a more classical, refined semi-operatic style, with an emphasis on note production and particularly vibrato.

Frankly, I hate it.

I find that the style as a whole is incredibly lacking. To me it more or less sounds like an immitation of the twittering of birds, and the shape of the mouth while singing and juttering of the jaw while producing vibrato looks silly. But most importantly for me is that overall it seems to lack a vital essence. It seems terribly mechanical in nature, focusing entirely on the correct replication of accurate notes while the singer themself is completely empty in emotional content and effort: essentially, the songs in my opinion lack the heart or soul of the performer behind their empty notes.

Now of course there are a few occasional exceptions (entirely because of the singer's own talent), but I feel this sentiment for the overall vast majority that I have encountered, particularly in films from the 1930s and 40s: in general to me it is empty, hollow, and emotionally worthless.

So, am I full of shit? Do others agree or disagree? What's the opinion of those behind the veils of your personal cathode rays?

Define "classical singing style." There is no one single singing style used in classical music.

I did, you moron. Where it's semi-operatic, and was occuring in these Jeanette MacDonald films last night. I don't know any academic musical terms, so don't really expect much of anything more detaled other than you see it all the time in films from the 1930s and 40s: especially from the 30s.

Never seen the films, and there isn't even a single opera style. I'm pretty sure I have the gist of what you mean, though.

Rogue 9 wrote:I'm pretty sure I have the gist of what you mean, though.

If not, basically how people sing in the vast majority of musicals made in the 1930s; more or less opera-ish.
[size=0]Now try not being such a fucking robot next time...[/size]
I don't know anything about music, so that's the best way I could define it myself.

Rogue 9 wrote:Never seen the films, and there isn't even a single opera style. I'm pretty sure I have the gist of what you mean, though.

I think he basically means he prefers bright music over dark music.

What? I just tried looking those up, but got nothing, so I have no Idea what you mean by bright and dark music.

Bright and dark refer to singing styles. Dark singing tends to use the back of the throat as a resonance chamber to maximize the acustics. This, for the most part, tends to be classical singing. Over a long period of time, however, it begins to wear the throat down. A bright style tends to utilize the front part of the mouth. This affect makes music sound more "Broadway." There is less strain on the throat muscles and allows for better understanding of what is being sung. This is a very generlized explaination, but should suffice for the topic at hand.

Fire Fly wrote:This is a very generlized explaination, but should suffice for the topic at hand.

Yeah, it does actually. Thanks. Should I change the title of the thread to reflect the correct terminology?

Spanky, you're describing that kind of falsetto, formal, overly trained voice that drives me to fits of violence.

The trilled "R"s, the singing of the word "potato" as "po-TAHH-to" and such...I know exactly what you're talking about and hate it as well.

It may have it's place, but that place is not in some tawdry pop song in a musical of the 30s.

I also hate that shit, I prefer a nice clean sound from a woman, that is to say, each note pronounced clearly without bullshit warbles or staccato. Sarah Jezebel Diva's operatic vocals are pretty good for that.

For the guys, well, outside the death grunt cookie monster vocals, and the groove metal shouted vocals, anyway, the alternated "clean" vocals Burt from Fear Factory, or Corey from Slipknot does, holding those notes is hard as hell. The bassier operatic ones are okay, but they sound a bit goofy.

I think I have an idea what you're talking about, and I see it in lots of musicals, regardless of time period. Whenever actors break out into song and dance, they're so focused on getting the notes right that they have the same damned expression on their faces the whole time. (Or they sit there grinning like idiots when they're not belting out notes.)

I would actually more place it into the 1930s specifically, although the two films that sparked this thread in particular were from the 40s. The first was the singing of Jeanette MacDonald and Nelson Eddy in I Married an Angel (1942), while the second was Jane Powell (wearing garish red lipstick and singing with one of the most annoyingly grinnish smiles I've seen) in Three Daring Daughters from 1948, in particular the latter one. But in my opinion such dark singing style permiated the musicals of the 1930s, since I see a lot of them all the time on TCM.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Now of course there are a few occasional exceptions (entirely because of the singer's own talent), but I feel this sentiment for the overall vast majority that I have encountered, particularly in films from the 1930s and 40s: in general to me it is empty, hollow, and emotionally worthless.

So, am I full of shit? Do others agree or disagree? What's the opinion of those behind the veils of your personal cathode rays?

Yup, you are full of shit.

I am a great fan of opera, though for some reason not a fan of musicals in general, whether from the 1940s or other decade. As for the style you refer to, it's very easy to do badly, but very good when done right.

I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're getting at, but I think I have an idea. Anyway, if I'm reading you right, I have to disagree. I tend to dislike lyrics in general. I'm much more a fan of the musical aspect of music. Thusly, if something has to have vocals, I'd much rather the singer treat their voice as a musical instrument, focusing on notes, and effects like vibrato and such, rather than attempting to recite bad poetry vaguely in tune with the song.

felineki wrote:I'm not entirely sure I understand what you're getting at,

Then you're frankly an idiot, because it's been explained or roughly refered to about eight times by five different people in this thread. Either that or you've never seen more than ten films made before 1970.

The issue that people who actually don't like classical singing is that they can't understand what is being sung, even if it is in their native tounge. This bias against classical singing is well founded, however, since classical singing emphasizes the sound over the words. Every effort is taken to extract, highlight, and emphasize the sound that sometimes, the words are lost. Vowels are exaggerated, r's are rolled, consonances are minimized. I admit that even I have trouble understanding opera and classical repetoires, unless I've listened to it multiple times beforehand.

There is a very small movement that has been recently growing to emphasize a brighter style when singing classical pieces since it allows greater voice projection, clearity, and does minimal damage to the throat. But I doubt it will change. Classical singing as changed little and even when it has, the change is little and it still utilizes the same voice techniques.

Heh, yeah, the stuff I've been encountering in films is nowhere near that dark, and my main complaint is that it sounds empty and lifeless with no personal essence coming from the performer. Well, that and to me it also sounds like pure shit.

For the record, when I'm listening to music in general, I often don't put much concentration on the lyrical content for most songs; rather I hear the words partially as they sound, as part of the music and for their pure musical quality, rather than for what's being said. But I still hear the words distinctly.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Heh, yeah, the stuff I've been encountering in films is nowhere near that dark, and my main complaint is that it sounds empty and lifeless with no personal essence coming from the performer. Well, that and to me it also sounds like pure shit.

For the record, when I'm listening to music in general, I often don't put much concentration on the lyrical content for most songs; rather I hear the words partially as they sound, as part of the music and for their pure musical quality, rather than for what's being said. But I still hear the words distinctly.

I am not surprised by your view on classical music of the 1930s and 1940s. Sound recording then could not pick up the acustics as well as it does today. I find many classical song recordings of the earlier half of the 20th century to be dull. However, try listening to modern renditions of classical pieces today and you will hear more emotions in the singing.

No no no, it's popular music, from film musicals, that's often sung in somewhat of the classical style (regarding in particular the films I cited above), and the recording quality is actually quite good. Genuine classical music itself I have no issue with, just with such soulless garbage that was in the general run of film musicals in the 1930s and 40s, before and while more popular singing were becoming the norm.

It's basically comparing fare like I Married an Angel to material like The Wizard of Oz, The Harvey Girls, and My Fair Lady.

Spanky the Dolphin wrote: So, am I full of shit? Do others agree or disagree? What's the opinion of those behind the veils of your personal cathode rays?

You're perfectly entitled to your own likes and dislikes in music. If you prefer a more of a pop vocal style in musicals, then by all means, don't listen to the other stuff.

Man, don't be a buzzkill and say crap like that.

I'm thinking about "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" and now I know exactly what you're talking about.

Fucking a-men.

What? NO!!

No, God damn it, no!! No no no, not at fucking all. Fuck, I will rape you if you ever say something like that again. I was using The Wizard of Oz as an example of what I liked versus the crap in those exampled Jeanette MacDonald films.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:What? NO!!

No, God damn it, no!! No no no, not at fucking all. Fuck, I will rape you if you ever say something like that again. I was using The Wizard of Oz as an example of what I liked versus the crap in those exampled Jeanette MacDonald films.

Well, I've just always had a thing about how that song was sung. It's always left me with a sour taste that's dissolved by the colorization.