StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Here we go - lots o' pictures, so enjoy! Oh, wait - linke to the fine museum that bought, restored, and keeps this old bird flying: Yankee Air Museum



This was the first thing to catch my eye at the 2006 Morris SkyFest. It was hard to miss. It's shiny. It's big. It is, in fact, the biggest damn airplane at the show.

They were preflighting it and getting it ready to go when I walked up. A lot of that involved shooing away the curious general public.



Taxiing out to the runway...




And then there's the magic moment of take-off:



Then the big bird flies away -

There were two sorts of tours offered with this airplane.



Guess which one I took....

(Hint... I'm at an airshow because I can't afford to rent an airplane...)

If you're wondering how much air time you get for $425 USD, it's 30 minutes. That's $850/hour. Not cheap. Despite that, they had no trouble packing the airplane with tourists. Apparently a lot of people will pay that much for 30 minutes in a B17.

Why so much? Well, those are four mighty big gas-guzzling engines on that thing, then there's all the work of repair and maintenance... Airplanes aren't cheap. Multi-engine airplanes are even less cheap. When it's a multi-engine airplane who's maker no longer manufactures or supplies parts, made with (relatively) ancient technology and over 60 years old... well. You need money. Forget the avgas, just stuff $100 bills into the gas tank.

It's also a tailwheel airplane. Insurance is always higher on tailwheels. I'm sure that's a small factor.

This is standing on the ground, in the open doors of the bomb bay, looking upward.





We'll see more of this place a bit later.

You know, it kind of reminded me of some of the bits in FPS computer games...

You may also notice that there are lots of other people in these shots. I have no idea who they are, they're tourists, like me. This airplane was just crawling with people the whole time it was on the ground. No wonder they had guys in the ground crew who's just was basically to shoo the curious out of the nooks and crannies when it was time to power up.

Space was also pretty tight in there, so it was pretty hard to get a shot without getting anyone else in it.

A little something for those of you who like bomber nose art:




I also got a shot of the very high-tech way they secure everything: bungee cords. There were bungees all over this thing. In this photo they're securing the prop blades to the tires.



What you don't get a good look at here is the nice puddle of oil under that engine. Drip...drip...drip...

Here we have the entrance to the bird. Along with a shot of some stranger's ass. Undignified but that's the way you do it. Now, if you were mean you'd hang a "must be thin enough to squeeze through here to get on this ride" sign above the hatch but apparently no one was quite that obnoxious that day. At least they supplied a ladder - the last time I had to crawl onto/into an airplane of this vintage no one was so kind and I just sort of had to claw my way up there - but then, I was going as a pilot. This tourist thing may not be so bad after all....




I started getting a clue this was even tighter than it looked because everyone was taking a really really looooooooooooong time to wedge themselves up in there.

When it was my turn and I got to the top of the shakey aluminum step ladder I found out why. It was like crawling into a shoebox. I'm not sure what the hell you call that space, other than "teeny". I'm not a big person. This crawlspace made me feel HUGE. I would really like to have gotten a picture of it, but I just couldn't. I mean, there just wasn't any room to manuver. I stopped wondering how fat people got into this thing and wondered how the six-footers managed. No wonder all that gruntin' and groanin' had been coming out of the airplane, not to mention swearing, muttering, and random limbs as the person entering thrashed around trying to find the one yoga position that would enable him/her to emerge through this... this... orifice into the rest of the airplane.

Hehe. Hope no bases ever had to scramble a bomber wing in a real hurry, with access that obnoxious.

White Haven wrote:Hehe. Hope no bases ever had to scramble a bomber wing in a real hurry, with access that obnoxious.

You'd be surprised how fast someon can climb into one of those. But bombers usually are supposed to take of quick. that's a fighter's job.

Very nice, I saw the last flying B-29 over in Texas, those giant bombers are still impressive.

Great pics! I love all this old stuff. Much more interesting than whizz-bang jets!

White Haven wrote:Hehe. Hope no bases ever had to scramble a bomber wing in a real hurry, with access that obnoxious.

I'm sure with practice it gets easier when you get that spatial memory as to where all the pointy pokey-bits are and how your body fits. And if someone is shooting at you, you could probably jump off the ground and squish yourself in with no problem, especially if you're a fit 20 year old man.

This is the only picture I could get in the entrance area. If I recall, I was crouched down/on my knees because the ceiling was so low I couldn't stand up at all.



Views of the chin turret:

Cockpit views:





In case you were wondering why I didn't get more detailed photos, access to both the chin turret and the cockpit were blocked. Given that they were flying this thing several times over the course of the day it's probably a very good idea they keep the general public out of the cockpit.

I doubt it's obvious to the general public, but these are not the original avionics. It's not a "glass cockpit" with digital displays, either, but it's a fully modern panel. Which also makes sense, because they're flying this thing in modern airspace. It's equipped to fly anywhere they want to take it, unlike vintage warbirds with original equipment that is inadequate for some types of modern controlled airspace (such as the biplane I flew last fall - taking that one to a towered airport would require special dispensation by the local FAA office). It has lost a little historical "authenticity" but it doesn't bother me a bit. It's a flying airplane, not a static museum piece. I'd rather see it upgraded than left "authentic" but less capable and possibly less safe.

It's amazing that they keep these old birds in the air. I hope she continues to fly safely for years to come.

Was access to the rear of the aircraft restricted?

Broomstick wrote:I doubt it's obvious to the general public, but these are not the original avionics. It's not a "glass cockpit" with digital displays, either, but it's a fully modern panel. Which also makes sense, because they're flying this thing in modern airspace. It's equipped to fly anywhere they want to take it, unlike vintage warbirds with original equipment that is inadequate for some types of modern controlled airspace (such as the biplane I flew last fall - taking that one to a towered airport would require special dispensation by the local FAA office). It has lost a little historical "authenticity" but it doesn't bother me a bit. It's a flying airplane, not a static museum piece. I'd rather see it upgraded than left "authentic" but less capable and possibly less safe.

Wonderful interior shots, Broomstick. Great stuff all around. Imagine cramming 10 men into that aircraft, all wearing bulky cold-weather gear (unpressurized aircraft at 30,000 feet are chilly)! Tight fit in miserable conditions.

There are enough "100%" authentic aircraft in museums, so an aircraft like this with more modern instruments isn't all that objectionable. You're right, keep them flying!

For example, to further Broomstick's point, the 2 photos below (taken a year apart, in 2005 and 2006, from as close as I dared to get to the aircraft without touching it) of a P-51D cockpit shows quite a difference from a wartime example. I know nothing of cockpit instrumentation, but comparing it to a photo of a wartime P-51D seen at the bottom (I did not take that picture), I can see many of the gauges are new and there's even some kind of MFD in the lower center panel there, in front of the stick. Perhaps Broomstick can describe it or some of the other instruments, if she recognizes any?



Modern cockpit. Larger version here.




Modern cockpit, other side. Larger version here



Old-timey version. I don't have a larger version of the above, but at least some of the differences can be seen, not least of which is the color of the panel and the surrounding cockpit walls. At the extreme top is the gunsight head crash cushion that says "No Hand Hold" and not "Hand Hold."

Yet another modern P-51D cockpit seen here (again, I did not take this photo). Unlike the pictures at the top, this P-51 lacks a gunsight.

Acidburns wrote:Was access to the rear of the aircraft restricted?

No, I just have limited time to post in the evening.

You couldn't get to the tailgunner position, but you could get pretty far back. You'll see in a bit.

Broomstick wrote:

Acidburns wrote:Was access to the rear of the aircraft restricted?

No, I just have limited time to post in the evening.

You couldn't get to the tailgunner position, but you could get pretty far back. You'll see in a bit.

Did you get any shots of the ball turret? That's the one I find most interesting, hanging down with a clear view all around. Must have been a hell of a way to ride.

Broomstick wrote:No, I just have limited time to post in the evening.

You couldn't get to the tailgunner position, but you could get pretty far back. You'll see in a bit.

Excellent, thanks!

Perhaps Broomstick can describe it or some of the other instruments, if she recognizes any?

Let's see what I can do with this - some of it will be guesses, but I'll do my best.



Starting at the top, left to right:
1st row: N-number placard
2nd row: part of an instrument landing system, indicators for outer, middle and inner markers for an ILS.
3rd row: artificial horizon (vacuum driven gyro model), altimeter, (dip down slightly) dual gauge with carbuerator temperature on the left and radiator coolant temperature on the right, and I think that thing on the far right might be a digital hobbes meter but I can't tell for sure.
4th row: I don't know - another artificial horizon? Some gyroscopic thing I'm not familar with. Next in line is the vertical speed indicator. Next is an ILS, then some sort of switch but I can't tell for what
5th row: we see part of the screen for a GPS, a pretty recent one but I can't tell what brand/model. The next bit with the two red "windows" - left side is fuel flow meter and the right is aparantly some other fuel measure, and I'd guess they're both hooked up with the GPS. Underneath that it looks like we have some sort of autopilot set up. Round gauge next to it is the suction gauge for the vacuum system that drives some or all of the gyros. Not too sure about some of that other stuff, but it looks like we have a compass waaaaay down, the last gauge underneath the hose.

The crank handles mounted near the windows might be for manual extension of the landing gear.



The small, round circle that is very dim over on the left is a compass. Definitely. I don't know what the one underneath and to the left of that one is. Just left of the artificial horizon we have the airspeed indicator. Next to that is the manifold pressure gauge and underneath/slight left is the rpm gauge. The one immediately to the left of the square thing and above the GPS screen is the turn-and-bank indicator. I have no idea what is under the RPM indicator, but it looks busy.

Partly, this is not the conventional "6-pack" instrument layout that was standardized somewhere post-1950. Which makes sense. The WWII era airplanes didn't use the post-50's civilian standard layout. That's one reason you can tell the B-17 has had a major avionics overhaul - the cockpit layout follows the new, latter-20th-Century layout and configuration.



Much simpler - Not sure what that gauge sitting by its lonesome in the top right is. In the first full row I don't know what the one on the far left is, either, but the next over is a plain old compass, then an artificial horizon (but it's old - it doesn't have the blue/brown colors that became standard), not sure about the two small ones next over but the far right/first full row is probably manifold pressure for the engine.

Second full row, from left - altimeter, turn-and-bank, vertical speed indiciator, accelerometer (it's indicating "1", which is a give-away for those, since standing on the ground you're under 1 g), and another "I'm not sure" but I think it might be rpm for the engine.

FSTargetDrone wrote:Did you get any shots of the ball turret? That's the one I find most interesting, hanging down with a clear view all around. Must have been a hell of a way to ride.

By your request:

Here we have it from above:




From the belly, on the ground:


And this is how the poor guy is supposed to sit inside:


No, I didn't concentrate on it in particular. Truth is, I might have spent all day taking pictures, there's so much detail, but I didn't want to spend hours with this. Also, they were starting to shoo us away for the next flight.


Finally, if you look closely you'll see this is one airplane that definitely has balls. Well, one of 'em, at least...

Broomstick wrote:Much simpler - Not sure what that gauge sitting by its lonesome in the top right is. In the first full row I don't know what the one on the far left is, either, but the next over is a plain old compass, then an artificial horizon (but it's old - it doesn't have the blue/brown colors that became standard), not sure about the two small ones next over but the far right/first full row is probably manifold pressure for the engine.

Second full row, from left - altimeter, turn-and-bank, vertical speed indiciator, accelerometer (it's indicating "1", which is a give-away for those, since standing on the ground you're under 1 g), and another "I'm not sure" but I think it might be rpm for the engine.

I believe the 2 pieces of cylindrical equipment on either side of the panel (hanging just below the edge of the coaming) are small spotlights for the pilot's use. You can see the power cables coming off and disappearing under the edge of the coaming itself. The one to the right of the panel is immediately to the above and to the right of the red handle (emergency canopy release).

I found a close up of a panel just like this in one of my Mustang books... The gauge in the first row, left of the compass is the airspeed indicator, showing 50-700 MPH. There is a red mark between 500 and 600 MPH, maybe that's a redline warning? The toggle switches to the lower left of the panel (3 with red covers) are, left to right: supercharger high/auto; a knob I can't identify; fuel booster; another toggle I can't make out; and finally red-covered starter and primer toggles. (Interestingly in the P-51B, this same area was instead occupied by the bomb arming toggles, gun and gun camera selectors! The B had quite a different panel layout than the D.) Anyhow, to the right of those toggles appears to be the fuel tank selector and then weapons' arming toggles, immediately below the parking brake. The rest of the stuff I can't clearly make out.

Broomstick wrote:By your request:

<snippage>

And this is how the poor guy is supposed to sit inside:

Thankees.

Btw, no parachute for the ball turret gunner. No room for it! He had to rotate the turret so the turret's hatch lined up with the opening in the floor of the fuselage, exit the ball turret, then strap his chute on, then bail out.

B-24's had retractable ball turrets. AFAIK, B-17's were not similarly equipped.

Great pics.

FSTargetDrone wrote:I found a close up of a panel just like this in one of my Mustang books... The gauge in the first row, left of the compass is the airspeed indicator, showing 50-700 MPH. There is a red mark between 500 and 600 MPH, maybe that's a redline warning?

On the airspeed indicator the red line is not a warning - it's the never exceed speed. And by never, they mean never. Going beyond that point there is a very real possibility of breaking your airplane. In particular, in a prop-driven airplane with an old-fashioned elevator rather than a "flying tail", getting that close to Mach 1 is a recipe for disaster. Bailing out at that speed, especially with WWII parachute technology, would be almost guaranteed fatal.

Does that mean going a needle-width above the red line is fatal? No - there is a little slack built into the system. A very little. And you still risk bending metal/popping rivets. The airplane may not be flyable when you're done. Afterward you would definitely need to do a thorough inspection for signs of overstress.

Earlier, I posted pictures from inside and underneath the bomb bay. Here are some from above:



You will note the "watch your head" warning signs. They were everywhere. Being used to civilian airplanes where they at least try to keep the floor continuous and level, the "split level" arrangement in this thing was different. you are continually going up or down to get anywhere. It's all about the mission the plane was built for and screw comfort for the bipeds inside.

My only regret about these shots is that we weren't at 20,000 feet when I took them. On the other hand, maybe that wasn't a bad thing after all. It's not the long drop that would bother me (although I have great respect for heights - you should fear them just a little) but the cold and the thin air. Even so, when this airplane got down to business, you'd have these bay doors wide open and bombs going down and, I assume, guys standing above all this watching it happen while making sure things go smoothly. That's a mighty narrow walkway even when the airplane is sitting on the ground - just slightly wider than one of my feet. It's also a fairly steep step-down, and this was an area that accumulated some traffic jams because the steps aren't a standard height. Between that and the narrow walkway and hard ground below a lot of people were a bit slow going down those steps. Including me. It doesn't help that my depth perception looking down at that sharp an angle really sucks due to my vision issues and glasses. Again, it's one of those things that will really slow you down the first time through, but I'm sure that to those who worked in these airplanes every day their bodies learned the spatial dimensions well enough they could run through the plane at high speed blindfolded without hurting themselves.

That slot you walk through is yet another "you must be >>>THIS SKINNY<<< to walk through this airplane" obstacle. I didn't see anyone get stuck, but then, I think anyone too wide for this would have been stopped at the entrance up near the nose.

I'm also thinking that if you had to bail out in a hurry this is the exit you'd use, everything else being on the very small side. The other advantage is that by dropping straight down you would have no chance of hitting the tail or other structure of the airplane.

And here we have crew stations:



Note the bare-bones nature of this structure. I'm not sure what the cables going by overhead are. They look a lot like the sort of cables used to control flight surfaces, but darn if I know that's what they are or aren't. All the "plumbing" is exposed. (Come to think of it, I didn't see any "facilities" on board. Hmm.... I now have an image of daring young men pissing on Germany through the bomb bay doors....)

No padding on the walls, just the backside of the metal skin. In that sense, the interior of this airplane reminds me a lot of the Stearman, the main difference being the Stearman walls are the backside of painted fabric and here they're the backside of polished metal.

A lot of this airplane looks very primative to me, but then, as the Other Half pointed out, when they built this it had been less than 40 years since the Wright Brothers flew at Kitty Hawk. It is primative compared to most of what I've flown in, either commercial or private. Modern military airplanes might still have that "bare bones" look about them because the military doesn't have to build "pretty" but I'm sure there have been some significant changes in engineering and construction.

Oh, and when you pay your $400+ for a 30 minute flight... these are two of the seats you might get. There being no other seats than the crew stations, of course. There are a few more in the back you'll see in a bit.

Broomstick wrote:Note the bare-bones nature of this structure. I'm not sure what the cables going by overhead are. They look a lot like the sort of cables used to control flight surfaces, but darn if I know that's what they are or aren't. All the "plumbing" is exposed. (Come to think of it, I didn't see any "facilities" on board. Hmm.... I now have an image of daring young men pissing on Germany through the bomb bay doors....)

Those are indeed the cables for the tail surfaces.

And given what I've heard about the conditions at 30,000 feet, I'd tend to say that any man who unzips at that altitude had better be quick about it, or not be too fond of his pecker.