The Dyson Sphere and the Hubble Telescope.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-07-13 01:42am

Now its been a while since i've seen the Dyson sphere episode and I don't know if this sort of question was ever addressed so bear with me.

Well I was recently thinking that with the ridiculous size of the Dyson sphere being over 100 times as massive as our sun, don't you think it should have been detected far earlier than the 24th century? In fact shouldnt we have easily spotted it with the Hubble Space Telescope or other various deep range IR or multi spectrum sensing equipment that we have today?

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2004-07-13 01:50am

I would think it would be hard to detect a Dyson sphere since it is not bright object since the star is inside the sphere and there is no nearby star outside of the sphere.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-07-13 01:56am

Well I was recently thinking that with the ridiculous size of the Dyson sphere being over 100 times as massive as our sun, don't you think it should have been detected far earlier than the 24th century?

That depends how far the Dyson sphere is from Earth: Also, unlike a star, a Dyson sphere emits no light and virtually no EM radiation in the other spectrums (radio, X-ray, gamma, etc...). THis is somewhat anagolous to the way the black holes can only be detected if they happen to be near enough to another star to suck material from it: when that happens, you get a shitload of X-rays. Granted, a Dyson sphere doesn't have gravity strong enough to suck in visable light (and it is much larger than most black holes), but then I seriously doubt the negligable ammount of starlight a Dyson sphere's surface will reflect (so little that in reality it would appear as a black circle in space) will be visable to any telescope on or in orbit around Earth...

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-13 02:02am

A dyson sphere could not be detected by present day technology but the Federation might able to detect one over interstellar distances. In one Voyger episode they were able to create a real time image of a planet light years away using subspace sensors. So Federation science ships could detect a dyson sphere if they come within a few light years.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-13 04:04am

Ma Deuce wrote:
Well I was recently thinking that with the ridiculous size of the Dyson sphere being over 100 times as massive as our sun, don't you think it should have been detected far earlier than the 24th century?
That depends how far the Dyson sphere is from Earth: Also, unlike a star, a Dyson sphere emits no light and virtually no EM radiation in the other spectrums (radio, X-ray, gamma, etc...).

The Dyson Sphere must ultimately radiate all of the energy put out by the star inside. It should eventually reach a steady state at which point the sun's power would be equal to the power of the radiation (be it light, other EM, whatever) of the sphere.

Allbran_Sustain · Post by **Allbran_Sustain** » 2004-07-13 07:45am

I always wondered what happened to the Dyson sphere. I can't believe we never heard about it after that one episode. Does anyone know whether research teams were sent there by the feds? Its is the single most important discovery the federation has made, and yet they didn't seem to exploit it. The tech within that thing would take thousands of years to study. Isn't the inside surface area something like a few million Earth surface areas? If they even decided to use it as scrap, then they would have a limitless supply of material for fleet construction. The whole federation could be moved into the sphere (if it is safe).

I wonder whether the Romulans know about it, if they do then they could send their own secret teams to study it.

Are there any trek books that mention the D. sphere?

Allbran_Sustain · Post by **Allbran_Sustain** » 2004-07-13 07:49am

The Dyson Sphere must ultimately radiate all of the energy put out by the star inside. It should eventually reach a steady state at which point the sun's power would be equal to the power of the radiation (be it light, other EM, whatever) of the sphere.

If they could use the energy to replicate things then that would be something. I'm thinking along the lines of the Star Forge that was in KOTOR. That was one great game. I enjoyed the story from that game, more than the 2 prequels

Jawawithagun · Post by **Jawawithagun** » 2004-07-13 04:55pm

Howedar wrote: That depends how far the Dyson sphere is from Earth: Also, unlike a star, a Dyson sphere emits no light and virtually no EM radiation in the other spectrums (radio, X-ray, gamma, etc...).

The Dyson Sphere must ultimately radiate all of the energy put out by the star inside. It should eventually reach a steady state at which point the sun's power would be equal to the power of the radiation (be it light, other EM, whatever) of the sphere.[/quote]

So it would basically look like a dim star the size of Earth's orbit that only radiates in the IR spectrum.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-13 05:44pm

Yes, basically. Though I suppose it could radiate in other spectra if there was some reason and technology in place to do so.

IR is the most likely though.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2004-07-13 06:44pm

Allbran_Sustain wrote:anyone know whether research teams were sent there by the feds?

IIRC Picard's log VO at the end of the episode states that 2 research ships would be dispatched to study the sphere. Not that we ever heard anything about them...

Its is the single most important discovery the federation has made, and yet they didn't seem to exploit it. The tech within that thing would take thousands of years to study.

Wouldn't that rather handily explain them not exploting it? What with them still being busy studying for the foreseeable (and then some) future

Isn't the inside surface area something like a few million Earth surface areas? If they even decided to use it as scrap, then they would have a limitless supply of material for fleet construction

As the Enterprise wasn't able to do diddley squat to the Sphere, scrapping it isn't likely going to be easy. And that's assuming the Feds can make use of the material in the first place. IIRC the thing's hull was 'carbon-neutronium', and neutronium compounds are somewhat beyond the Fed's means...

Lancer · Post by **Lancer** » 2004-07-13 08:57pm

Howedar wrote:
Ma Deuce wrote:
Well I was recently thinking that with the ridiculous size of the Dyson sphere being over 100 times as massive as our sun, don't you think it should have been detected far earlier than the 24th century?
That depends how far the Dyson sphere is from Earth: Also, unlike a star, a Dyson sphere emits no light and virtually no EM radiation in the other spectrums (radio, X-ray, gamma, etc...).
The Dyson Sphere must ultimately radiate all of the energy put out by the star inside. It should eventually reach a steady state at which point the sun's power would be equal to the power of the radiation (be it light, other EM, whatever) of the sphere.

it was stated that the Dyson Sphere was pumping out "massive" amounts of energy through gravity.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2004-07-13 09:24pm

I would think a Dyson sphere would reradiate large amounts of radio waves and infrared radiation (heat) as the star's energy passes through it and its systems, biosphere, etc...

Matt Huang wrote:
Howedar wrote:
Ma Deuce wrote: That depends how far the Dyson sphere is from Earth: Also, unlike a star, a Dyson sphere emits no light and virtually no EM radiation in the other spectrums (radio, X-ray, gamma, etc...).
The Dyson Sphere must ultimately radiate all of the energy put out by the star inside. It should eventually reach a steady state at which point the sun's power would be equal to the power of the radiation (be it light, other EM, whatever) of the sphere.
it was stated that the Dyson Sphere was pumping out "massive" amounts of energy through gravity.

Gravity? How?

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-13 09:39pm

Howedar wrote:Yes, basically. Though I suppose it could radiate in other spectra if there was some reason and technology in place to do so.

IR is the most likely though.

Even if it was pretty close, it could easily be checked off as a dim red giant.

Metrion Cascade · Post by **Metrion Cascade** » 2004-07-13 10:28pm

As for scrapping it, what would a supernova of the star inside do to it?

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-07-14 01:35am

Matt Huang wrote:it was stated that the Dyson Sphere was pumping out "massive" amounts of energy through gravity.

Err, no. The Dyson sphere would produce gravity whether there was no star inside it or not: every object in the Universe produces gravity to some degree, and the Dyson sphere is an incredibly massive object. The kind of energy we're talking about would be in the infared spectrum, and possibly gamma and radio waves as well, all of which originally originated in the star. It's almost a given that the Dyson sphere has systems designed to radiate the star's excess heat and radiation to ensure the environment doesn't get cooked...

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-14 01:51am

Metrion Cascade wrote:As for scrapping it, what would a supernova of the star inside do to it?

The Dyson sphere is not very thick. A supernova would probobly vaporize a sphere since they can do the same to planets which are much thicker.

Ma Deuce · Post by **Ma Deuce** » 2004-07-14 01:57am

evilcat4000 wrote:The Dyson sphere is not very thick. A supernova would probobly vaporize a sphere since they can do the same to planets which are much thicker.

But planets usually don't contain neutronium, now do they? IIRC, 10 cubic meters of neutronium would weigh as much as the Earth...

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-14 03:35am

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Howedar wrote:Yes, basically. Though I suppose it could radiate in other spectra if there was some reason and technology in place to do so.

IR is the most likely though.
Even if it was pretty close, it could easily be checked off as a dim red giant.

We're talking way beyond dim, Gil. I wouldn't expect anything but reflected sunlight, which simply doesn't get confused with a dim star.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2004-07-14 04:06am

Not just reflected light. Unless it radiates all the energy produced by the star, the Sphere will slowly heat up.

Dyson's original proposal talked about detection via infrared:

In one of his papers, he made the observation that it was possible that a growing technological society would increasingly surround its native star so as to maximise the capture of available energy. The end point of this process would be the complete enclosure of the star; all wavelength from visible light downwards being intercepted and waste heat being radiated outwards as infrared radiation. Therefore, one method of searching for extraterrestrial civilisations would be to look for suspiciously large objects radiating in the infrared. Dyson actually conceived of such a
structure as being a cloud of asteroid-sized habitats, though science fiction writers have preferred a solid structure: either way, such an artifact is often referred to as a Dyson sphere.

Allbran_Sustain · Post by **Allbran_Sustain** » 2004-07-14 08:55am

IIRC, 10 cubic meters of neutronium would weigh as much as the Earth

REALLY!!

no wonder the enterprise couldn't cut through that thing.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-07-14 11:18am

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:I would think a Dyson sphere would reradiate large amounts of radio waves and infrared radiation (heat) as the star's energy passes through it and its systems, biosphere, etc...

Matt Huang wrote:
Howedar wrote:The Dyson Sphere must ultimately radiate all of the energy put out by the star inside. It should eventually reach a steady state at which point the sun's power would be equal to the power of the radiation (be it light, other EM, whatever) of the sphere.
it was stated that the Dyson Sphere was pumping out "massive" amounts of energy through gravity.
Gravity? How?

Radiating gravitic energy may be more efficint than radiating infrared.

EM energy radiates in three dimension, but Gravity radiates in FOUR dimensions; since some of the energy leaks into a dimension we cannot directly access, the Sphere is not so easily detectable.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2004-07-14 02:50pm

Winston Blake wrote:Not just reflected light. Unless it radiates all the energy produced by the star, the Sphere will slowly heat up.

Since the Dyson sphere was intended as a habitat rather like Earth's, it obviously must radiate at the same rate as the star.

Icehawk · Post by **Icehawk** » 2004-07-14 07:14pm

So assuming it has to radiate the same level of its star it should technically be detectable but just wouldnt really stand out?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2004-07-14 08:25pm

IIRC the interior was trashed by all the huge solar flares, leaving just the shell and no tech inside.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2004-07-14 08:34pm

Howedar wrote:
Winston Blake wrote:Not just reflected light. Unless it radiates all the energy produced by the star, the Sphere will slowly heat up.
Since the Dyson sphere was intended as a habitat rather like Earth's, it obviously must radiate at the same rate as the star.

I assumed you thought this huge amount of radiation wasn't present:

Howedar wrote:We're talking way beyond dim, Gil. I wouldn't expect anything but reflected sunlight, which simply doesn't get confused with a dim star.