Something I noticed about Photon Torpedoes in DS9

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-07-15 12:27am

I realize this. I never suggested sending ST-tech level fighters against Starfleet; that'd be suicide and I know it. I'm saying that no one's thinking on either side, since 1.) apparently none of the Federation's enemies have developed practical counters to strike fighters and 2.) the Federation hasn't taken advantage of that lapse to knock down everyone else in the Alpha Quadrant that annoys them, since Peregrins seem fairly tactically invincible against any non-Starfleet vessel if this gross inaccuracy of Romulan and Cardassian weapons holds true. I mean, hell, screw sending the E-E against Shinzon. Toss in a flight of Peregrins and the day is won, if they really can't be hit reliably and have sufficient punch to take out a Warbird.

Lord MJ · Post by **Lord MJ** » 2004-07-15 12:30am

I'm not sure if it will even be necessary to carry fighters.

Newer Federation Shuttlecraft have much improved combat capability than their TNG counterparts, and seems much sleeker and maneuverable than those used in TNG.

Voyager could have used shuttles to great effectiveness in combat, what with it's endless supply of shuttles and all

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-07-15 12:31am

Wow, the Feds actually arm their shuttles now?

I never watched much Voyager at all.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-15 12:34am

Rogue 9 wrote:I realize this. I never suggested sending ST-tech level fighters against Starfleet; that'd be suicide and I know it. I'm saying that no one's thinking on either side, since 1.) apparently none of the Federation's enemies have developed practical counters to strike fighters and 2.) the Federation hasn't taken advantage of that lapse to knock down everyone else in the Alpha Quadrant that annoys them, since Peregrins seem fairly tactically invincible against any non-Starfleet vessel if this gross inaccuracy of Romulan and Cardassian weapons holds true. I mean, hell, screw sending the E-E against Shinzon. Toss in a flight of Peregrins and the day is won, if they really can't be hit reliably and have sufficient punch to take out a Warbird.

Fighters are extremely limited endurance platforms and need a mothership. Their mothership can't be weak so it has to fight as well. Anything less then a full carrier compliment of Peregrines in Nemesis wouldn't have done a bit of good.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-15 12:35am

Lord MJ wrote:I'm not sure if it will even be necessary to carry fighters.

Newer Federation Shuttlecraft have much improved combat capability than their TNG counterparts, and seems much sleeker and maneuverable than those used in TNG.

Voyager could have used shuttles to great effectiveness in combat, what with it's endless supply of shuttles and all

Shuttles do not have the same array of weapons and firepower a fighter can bring to bear. Fighters are about the same size as shuttles, only they don't bother with the cargo room and what not. This gives them more weapons space and the ability to design the fighter to manuever. Shuttles are a little to easy to shoot down as compared to how manueverable Peregrines are.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2004-07-15 12:37am

BTW, for everyone who says the Federation doesn't use fighters enough. Might want to rewatch DS9. Tac-Fighters were at almost every major fleet engagement and a lot of the smaller ones as well. Starfleet just doesn't bother with Tac-Fighters on anything less then task force level ship movements it seems. I also suspect the Fighter force isn't deployed in peace time. Pitty. Some of the larger ships could use a squadron or two as support assets.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-07-15 12:44am

Alyeska wrote:BTW, for everyone who says the Federation doesn't use fighters enough. Might want to rewatch DS9. <snip> I also suspect the Fighter force isn't deployed in peace time. Pitty. Some of the larger ships could use a squadron or two as support assets.

Then they obviously aren't using fighters enough.

They do use them, no doubts there, but they'd be immensely useful in situations where they are not used, which means that they aren't used enough in my book. You know, it occurs to me that discussing fighters is perhaps yet another hijack, since the thread's about torpedoes...

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-07-15 01:26am

Rogue 9 wrote:I don't think it'd be too incredibly long before people started wising up and adding point defense guns to ships if Starfleet started doing that with any frequency, though. The total superiority wouldn't last long.

I think they do have point defense guns. We just don't seem the employed to often because most combat is against starships.

I believe this because of the TNG "Premptive Strike"

In the TNG episode you see a bunch of raiders attacking a Cardassian Galor and IIRC it had a fair number of point defense weapons firing.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2004-07-15 03:20am

Alyeska wrote:BTW, for everyone who says the Federation doesn't use fighters enough. Might want to rewatch DS9. Tac-Fighters were at almost every major fleet engagement and a lot of the smaller ones as well. Starfleet just doesn't bother with Tac-Fighters on anything less then task force level ship movements it seems. I also suspect the Fighter force isn't deployed in peace time. Pitty. Some of the larger ships could use a squadron or two as support assets.

Interestingly enough, the ships that Red Squadron was training on when Wesley and Paris... I mean LaCarno... were in appeared to be dressed down training fighters. It's conceivable that Red Squadron was training on those ships for eventual use of tac-fighters.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-07-15 04:04am

Thats the really strange thing, if the torps are the equal of most phaser arrays then why arn't there more torpedo launchers than windows on the ships? I can understand why phasors are not that numerous, they take power directly from the power core. I'm guessing that the designers had some sort of submarine idea in the back of their heads since modern submarines have about 4 torp launchers also.

Torpedoes are not self propelled weapons like missiles. Their warp sustainer engines need to be charged by the starship that launched them. Hence torpedoes require both considerable power and space. So it is not possible to mount as many torpedoes as one wishes on external racks and call it a day.

Allbran_Sustain · Post by **Allbran_Sustain** » 2004-07-15 06:58am

Given that the Federation is the only power with beam weapons capable of accurately shooting down fighters this means Starfleet can use Fighters at will against its opponents and they will fair quite well
...Imagine a half dozen Peregrines swarming a D'Deridex which has like little to no capability to shoot them down.

Yes but during some of the fight scenes in DS9, fed fighters were often shot down by the Galor and Keldons beam weapons. True, the Feds might have more accurate beam weapons but that doesn't mean the Dominion ships weren't any good at shooting them down. Unless you have a quote made my Dukat or something that says otherwise?

DS9 Sacrifice of Angels. A couple, I should say a half dozen, Peregrine Tactical Fighters make a strafing run on a Cardassian Galor cruiser and cause serious damage to it.

yes but wasn't that about the 4th wave of fighters? I remember Dukat saying that Sisko was a persistent man because he was continously sending in multiple waves of fighters in an attempt to drawn out the cardassian ships from the front line. I think the damage to the galor was due to its shields being weakened by the earlier attacks.

[/quote]

Allbran_Sustain · Post by **Allbran_Sustain** » 2004-07-15 07:02am

Torpedoes are not self propelled weapons like missiles. Their warp sustainer engines need to be charged by the starship that launched them. Hence torpedoes require both considerable power and space. So it is not possible to mount as many torpedoes as one wishes on external racks and call it a day.

Thats a fair point. But the energy needed to charge a torp is tiny when compared to the energy needed to power the ships engines. And since the ships can sustain warp 9 for some time whitout their energy being drained, then I think giving energy to a dozen or more torps every second shouldn't be a problem.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-07-15 05:35pm

Allbran_Sustain wrote:
yes but wasn't that about the 4th wave of fighters? I remember Dukat saying that Sisko was a persistent man because he was continously sending in multiple waves of fighters in an attempt to drawn out the cardassian ships from the front line. I think the damage to the galor was due to its shields being weakened by the earlier attacks.

It's possible, however, I believe Sisko ordered the attacks on all the Cardassian vessels in an attempt to break their lines. Thus, was it the same ship? We don't know....

Prozac the Robert · Post by **Prozac the Robert** » 2004-07-15 06:25pm

Their warp sustainer engines need to be charged by the starship that launched them.

Most fights don't happen at warp speed, especially fleet engagements. It might be worth keeping only a few tubes with that ability, and then adding a lot of tubes without, which would fire specially constructed sublight torpedos (no warp sustainer = more flight time, acceleration or yield).