They're too Trek to call it the Emperor. Nope. He's the Praetor.
If you're going for a precise Roman Empire model, you'd call him the Princeps or Dominus or Consul.
The death of the senate
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Illuminatus Primus
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Publius
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It is rather curious that the head of state of the Romulan Star Empire is titled the "Praetor," considering that the praetor was a mid-ranking magistratus ordinarius (ordinary magistrate), not a particularly high-ranking one.
The three magistracies in the cursus honorum were the quaestorship, the praetorship, and the consulship. Quaestores and praetores could be assigned to govern major provinces, but more frequently gubernatorial posts were assigned to former magistratus ordinarii (Iulius Caesar was proconsul in Gallia Cisalpina, Gallia Transalpina, and Illyricum, immediately following his first consulship with Marcus Calpurnius Bibulus).
Although in very early Roman history, the consules were occasionally called praetores, it is quite clear that consular dignity was superior to praetorian dignity; when the consulship was held by a college of tribuni militum consulare potestate (military tribunes with consular power), it was always the consular authority that was invoked.
Again, the authoritarian so-called Second Triumvirate (Marcus Antonius, Caius Iulius Caesar Octavianus, and Marcus Aemilius Lepidus) were formally called triumviri rei publicae constituendae consulare potestate (triumvirs for the reorganisation of the republic with consular power).
Of course, those titles became largely superfluous under the Caesar Augustus's Principate. Most provinces were governed by officials called praefecti (prefects), who were appointed by the emperor. Still, consules ordinarii continued to be elected until AD 541, when the emperor Iustinianus decreed the abrogation of the office. There were, of course, several other examples of one man's having held sole consulship: The emperor Constantinus III (Imperator Caesar Flavius Claudius Constantinus Augustus) was sole consul in the West in AD 409, for example.
If the Romulan Star Empire were to be a stellar counterpart to the Roman Republic, it would be more appropriate for the head of state to be titled consul. Note that it is not strictly necessary for there to be two consules; Cnaeus Pompeius Magnus was elected sole consul for 52 AC, and his archenemy Iulius Caesar was elected sole consul for 45 AC (although both constituted unusual concentrations of power in one man's hands -- unsurprising, considering that it was Pompeius Magnus and Iulius Caesar).
As to what would be the appropriate title for a stellar counterpart to the Roman emperor, that is a difficult question, as the Romans themselves never had a very clear idea of what the emperor should be called.
The most commonly seen title -- imperator (loosely, commander) -- is by no means exclusive to the emperors. As a title, it far predates the Principate; if a particular officer had command over many legiones, his title was dux (leader), and the commanders of his component legions legati (legates). When that general secured a particularly spectacular victory, his soldiers proclaimed him imperator, an honorific title with no particular meaning.
The first emperor, Caesar Augustus, was an imperator, but he never used that title to symbolise his office, nor did any of his immediate successors. For example, Tiberius Iulius Caesar, the second emperor, was not the only imperator to have lived during his reign: His much more popular consanguine Germanicus Iulius Caesar was also an imperator, though he was not emperor.
As the Romulans are generally portrayed as a more political race (as contrasted with the truculent and feudal Klingons), one would suppose that the title imperator would be inappropriate, given its militant connotation -- properly, the title suggests military authoritarianism, such as that of Manuel Antonio Noriega, or, in the Star Trek context, the Cardassian Union.
The second most common title is princeps, which is an abbreviated form of princeps senatus (first man of the senate). It, too, predates the Principate, and is not at all unique to the emperors, being merely an honorific title that literally meant the bearer was listed first on the rolls of the senatus -- the notion being something along the lines of "first among equals," or a certain primacy of honour (not authority). There were no fewer than six principes senatus prior to Caesar Augustus.
Offhandedly, of course, one might guess that princeps senatus would be appropriate for the Romulan Star Empire, given its particular emphasis on the Senate as a college of statesmen, not simply as a deliberative or legislative chamber.
The words Caesar and Augustus are frequently taken as titles, but the fact of the matter is that both are actually names, not titles. How, exactly, those names became permanently associated with the imperial dignity is a rather long and complicated subject, but suffice it to say that these, perhaps the most popular "titles" for the emperor, are completely inappropriate for use by the Romulan Star Empire.
Of course, one should also note that this is Star Trek, and the names of institutions are poor indicators of how they are governed. Witness the Klingon Empire which seemingly for centuries lacked an emperor, and was ruled monarchically by the Chancellor of the High Council, a title equivalent in meaning to prime minister or premier -- a head of government, but not a chief of state!
It is not altogether surprising that the head of the Romulan state is not an emperor or empress. This is the same franchise that cannot seem to decide whether the United Federation of Planets is governed by the President or by the Federation Council -- and that has uniformed, commissioned officers in the Federation Council!
In response to the original question, if one does not presuppose the coup d'état that accompanied Shinzon's eradication of the Senate:
The Constitution of the United States provides in Article I, section 2, that, in the case of the House of Representatives, "[w]hen vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies."
The Seventeenth Article of Amendment provides that "[w]hen vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to full such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct."
Essentially, the United States Government would continue to operate normally, even if the entire Congress were to have been eradicated in one swift stroke, as the mechanism whereby a new Congress may be elected is already in place.
The matter of Presidential succession is a bit lengthier. One may read 3 U.S.C. 19 to learn the Congress's thoughts on the matter.
Under no circumstances would a State governor assume Federal office by succession. Since the Seventeenth Amendment was ratified in AD 1913, there has been no formal connexion between the State governments and the United States Government: The one cannot "chuse" the members of the other, or depose or otherwise remove them, except on a provisional and temporary basis in the case of United States Senators. (Prior to 1913, the State legislatures selected their United States Senators, per Article I, section 3.)
The only connexions remaining are the temporary appointment of United States Senators, and the selection of the members of the Electoral College, which remains in the hands of the State legislatures -- however, the Electoral College is not an apparatus of the United States Government, but rather a specific subset of the electorate. States cannot force their Electors to vote in any manner.
Of course, the entire discussion is a bit pointless, because it ignores the fact that Shinzon was praetor not simply because he eradicated the Senate, but, more importantly, because he was the leader of a coup d'état. Such leaders can generally call themselves whatever they like; it is precisely how Napoléon Bonaparte acquired the title of "First Consul," and then of "Emperor of the French."
In an example of how history occasionally has a sense of humour, one finds that the French have provided another example of how there need not always be two partners in a consulate: Bonaparte's had three (himself, Jean Jacques Régis de Cambacérès, and Charles François Lebrun).
The three magistracies in the cursus honorum were the quaestorship, the praetorship, and the consulship. Quaestores and praetores could be assigned to govern major provinces, but more frequently gubernatorial posts were assigned to former magistratus ordinarii (Iulius Caesar was proconsul in Gallia Cisalpina, Gallia Transalpina, and Illyricum, immediately following his first consulship with Marcus Calpurnius Bibulus).
Although in very early Roman history, the consules were occasionally called praetores, it is quite clear that consular dignity was superior to praetorian dignity; when the consulship was held by a college of tribuni militum consulare potestate (military tribunes with consular power), it was always the consular authority that was invoked.
Again, the authoritarian so-called Second Triumvirate (Marcus Antonius, Caius Iulius Caesar Octavianus, and Marcus Aemilius Lepidus) were formally called triumviri rei publicae constituendae consulare potestate (triumvirs for the reorganisation of the republic with consular power).
Of course, those titles became largely superfluous under the Caesar Augustus's Principate. Most provinces were governed by officials called praefecti (prefects), who were appointed by the emperor. Still, consules ordinarii continued to be elected until AD 541, when the emperor Iustinianus decreed the abrogation of the office. There were, of course, several other examples of one man's having held sole consulship: The emperor Constantinus III (Imperator Caesar Flavius Claudius Constantinus Augustus) was sole consul in the West in AD 409, for example.
If the Romulan Star Empire were to be a stellar counterpart to the Roman Republic, it would be more appropriate for the head of state to be titled consul. Note that it is not strictly necessary for there to be two consules; Cnaeus Pompeius Magnus was elected sole consul for 52 AC, and his archenemy Iulius Caesar was elected sole consul for 45 AC (although both constituted unusual concentrations of power in one man's hands -- unsurprising, considering that it was Pompeius Magnus and Iulius Caesar).
As to what would be the appropriate title for a stellar counterpart to the Roman emperor, that is a difficult question, as the Romans themselves never had a very clear idea of what the emperor should be called.
The most commonly seen title -- imperator (loosely, commander) -- is by no means exclusive to the emperors. As a title, it far predates the Principate; if a particular officer had command over many legiones, his title was dux (leader), and the commanders of his component legions legati (legates). When that general secured a particularly spectacular victory, his soldiers proclaimed him imperator, an honorific title with no particular meaning.
The first emperor, Caesar Augustus, was an imperator, but he never used that title to symbolise his office, nor did any of his immediate successors. For example, Tiberius Iulius Caesar, the second emperor, was not the only imperator to have lived during his reign: His much more popular consanguine Germanicus Iulius Caesar was also an imperator, though he was not emperor.
As the Romulans are generally portrayed as a more political race (as contrasted with the truculent and feudal Klingons), one would suppose that the title imperator would be inappropriate, given its militant connotation -- properly, the title suggests military authoritarianism, such as that of Manuel Antonio Noriega, or, in the Star Trek context, the Cardassian Union.
The second most common title is princeps, which is an abbreviated form of princeps senatus (first man of the senate). It, too, predates the Principate, and is not at all unique to the emperors, being merely an honorific title that literally meant the bearer was listed first on the rolls of the senatus -- the notion being something along the lines of "first among equals," or a certain primacy of honour (not authority). There were no fewer than six principes senatus prior to Caesar Augustus.
Offhandedly, of course, one might guess that princeps senatus would be appropriate for the Romulan Star Empire, given its particular emphasis on the Senate as a college of statesmen, not simply as a deliberative or legislative chamber.
The words Caesar and Augustus are frequently taken as titles, but the fact of the matter is that both are actually names, not titles. How, exactly, those names became permanently associated with the imperial dignity is a rather long and complicated subject, but suffice it to say that these, perhaps the most popular "titles" for the emperor, are completely inappropriate for use by the Romulan Star Empire.
Of course, one should also note that this is Star Trek, and the names of institutions are poor indicators of how they are governed. Witness the Klingon Empire which seemingly for centuries lacked an emperor, and was ruled monarchically by the Chancellor of the High Council, a title equivalent in meaning to prime minister or premier -- a head of government, but not a chief of state!
It is not altogether surprising that the head of the Romulan state is not an emperor or empress. This is the same franchise that cannot seem to decide whether the United Federation of Planets is governed by the President or by the Federation Council -- and that has uniformed, commissioned officers in the Federation Council!
In response to the original question, if one does not presuppose the coup d'état that accompanied Shinzon's eradication of the Senate:
The Constitution of the United States provides in Article I, section 2, that, in the case of the House of Representatives, "[w]hen vacancies happen in the Representation from any State, the Executive Authority thereof shall issue Writs of Election to fill such Vacancies."
The Seventeenth Article of Amendment provides that "[w]hen vacancies happen in the representation of any State in the Senate, the executive authority of such State shall issue writs of election to full such vacancies: Provided, That the legislature of any State may empower the executive thereof to make temporary appointments until the people fill the vacancies by election as the legislature may direct."
Essentially, the United States Government would continue to operate normally, even if the entire Congress were to have been eradicated in one swift stroke, as the mechanism whereby a new Congress may be elected is already in place.
The matter of Presidential succession is a bit lengthier. One may read 3 U.S.C. 19 to learn the Congress's thoughts on the matter.
Under no circumstances would a State governor assume Federal office by succession. Since the Seventeenth Amendment was ratified in AD 1913, there has been no formal connexion between the State governments and the United States Government: The one cannot "chuse" the members of the other, or depose or otherwise remove them, except on a provisional and temporary basis in the case of United States Senators. (Prior to 1913, the State legislatures selected their United States Senators, per Article I, section 3.)
The only connexions remaining are the temporary appointment of United States Senators, and the selection of the members of the Electoral College, which remains in the hands of the State legislatures -- however, the Electoral College is not an apparatus of the United States Government, but rather a specific subset of the electorate. States cannot force their Electors to vote in any manner.
Of course, the entire discussion is a bit pointless, because it ignores the fact that Shinzon was praetor not simply because he eradicated the Senate, but, more importantly, because he was the leader of a coup d'état. Such leaders can generally call themselves whatever they like; it is precisely how Napoléon Bonaparte acquired the title of "First Consul," and then of "Emperor of the French."
In an example of how history occasionally has a sense of humour, one finds that the French have provided another example of how there need not always be two partners in a consulate: Bonaparte's had three (himself, Jean Jacques Régis de Cambacérès, and Charles François Lebrun).
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NecronLord
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In the DS9 ep when he first appears he has "Tubin's syndrome"FaxModem1 wrote:when did he have a terminal disease?
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NecronLord
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Publius, Can I put the first half of that on my site? I'll credit you as the writer.
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General Velal
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TheDarkling wrote:Well with the senate dead the head of the Tal'Shiar would probably be somewhere near the head of the queue to take control of the Romulans.
After Shizons attempt the senate is gone, the Anti Federation Navy people has exposed themselves (and also comitted treason) thus seting themselves up to be dealt with and the head of the Tal'Shiar is probably the most powerful man on Romulas.
Now since the head of the Tal'Shiar is in the Federations pocket (Section 31 at least) the new Romulan government is going to be very Pro Federation (With the Senate being rebuilt with the Tal'Shiar having a good say so in who gets in (and we know that its the "old" generation that made up the hardliners, newer senators = softer stance) and all the anti federation types have exposed themselves(and therefore will probably get disappeared)).
Taking all this into consideration it wouldn't surprise me if the Tal'Shiar let the coup happen (if they didn't aid it overtly), bit of a risk with the earth destroying weapon and all but S31 are risk takers.
Just idle speculation of course.
First thing about this topic is this entire Romulan Senate? What the Romulan Senator represents is important-A province, A Continent, A Planet, A System, A Sector?
The only clue we have is Senator Pardek from Unification. He represents a part of the Romulan Capital city called the Krocton Segment. This would imply Senators exist in great numbers-but the Senate meeting there might be those only relevant to the topics being discussed.
Praetor Hiren was responding to a call by 2 Romulan Military Officers, to ally themselves with Shinzon of Remus. The topic would have bearing only for those Senators with interest in the Romulus System itself, See how Senator Tal Aura could excuse herself on another matter-as if this session was coutesy to placate the grumbling military.
Romulan Senators are also quite acitive in diplomatic roles outside of the Empire- I cannot see this as being the entire Romulan Senate-A look at the building indicates that there is a larger similar chamber underneath.
Not to mention that other Senators like Tal Aura may have been in the coup and stayed away.
Now onto the Tal Shiar- They were considerd by the Dominion one of two key threats to their invasion plans. They are tough, but that was before the Omarion Nebula dissaster, they lost 4 warbirds with combat veteran crews,they gave romulan tech to the Cardassians without the senates knowledge, their vice chairman Vreenak was killed, their last operation to steal a Federation warship prototype, was a dsisater with 23 agents dead and a Warbird lost, their Chairman Koval is dying and revealed to be suspect.
To top it off they and the Romulan Military hate each other. Shinzon had the backing of the Romulan Military-The Tal Shiar would either too weak to challenge it, unaware of it-due to the militarys cover up or downgraded by the Senate.I doubt the Tal Shiar had any impact in this.
Next in line would be Senator Tal Aura-if the Military wanted a figurehead to maintain the established way of things-Shes the actual killer of the Senate, she would be be dancing on the their strings-simply out if she stepped out of line-hey your the killer aren't you? the Military wanted the coup as it meant their desire for armed conflict with the Federation would be realised, something Praetor Hiren was obviously not interested in.
Now Commander Donatra could have changed the plans on her fellow Officers, with Rikers comment on how he was heading off to discuss things with the Romulans. Just my Speculation:)
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Illuminatus Primus
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I never watched DS9 and I'm kind of new to some things Trek.
Sorry for the dumb question, but could you explain who the Tal Shiar are?
Sorry for the dumb question, but could you explain who the Tal Shiar are?
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.
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Publius
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A discussion on the Romulan political system - with emphasis on the nature of Senatorial dignity in the Romulan state - may be found here.
As noted, the most current issue of Star Trek Magazine discusses the Romulans, and reveals that the production staff intended for the Tal'Shiar to be a parallel to the Committee of State Security (KGB) and its various predecessors in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and for the Continuing Committee a parallel to the Political Bureau (Politburo) of the Communist Party.
Ironically, this is a change from the original series, in which the Romulan Star Empire was a parallel to the People's Republic of China, and the Klingon Empire to the Soviet Union.
As noted, the most current issue of Star Trek Magazine discusses the Romulans, and reveals that the production staff intended for the Tal'Shiar to be a parallel to the Committee of State Security (KGB) and its various predecessors in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and for the Continuing Committee a parallel to the Political Bureau (Politburo) of the Communist Party.
Ironically, this is a change from the original series, in which the Romulan Star Empire was a parallel to the People's Republic of China, and the Klingon Empire to the Soviet Union.
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General Velal
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Salutations Publius
Indeed, Face of the Enemy was influenced by such Novels like Hunt for the Red October. Commander Toreths debate with "Major Rakal" was a summary of the Russian Militarys Problem with the KGB and the Party. The Romulans in Balance of Terror (TOS) were clearly based on a Roman theme-The "Chinese" analogy emerged as in their relationship in the big 3 (UFP, Klingons and Roms) They mirroed Sino- Soviet Relations in regards to their on/off alliance with Klingons.
By TNG, The Romulans theme was a pronounced "Devious Cold war Era Mysterious Chinese one" Right down to Padded Tunics etc.
Publius your a fellow Romulan/Roman fan that I take my hat off to, Its ironic but I wrote such a piece without the clear diction skill you have on Trekweb BBS, I have been a Romulan fan for over a decade now, I waited patiently for a chance for Romulans to get a part on the big screen, more than 2 ambassadors, one dead one (A mercy as it was Generations) ! So when Nemesis was revealed to have some content for them I rejoiced.
The shock I got, was not from the film but the massive misconception of TNG Romulans the internet vocal fanbase had. Overnight Legions of "Romulan Experts" popped up, parroting each other with this now legendary urban myth of Romulan Xenophobia-Ignoring the key facts revealed on this Race in TNGS "The Neutral Zone" Trois revelation of Starfleets knowledge of them (A short scene that unravels many "experts" attacks on the Romulans military support of Shinzon)
The fact of their own voluntary killing of their babys for natural defects in "The Enemy"
The great episode "The Defector" which is directly relevant to Nemesis with Admiral Jarok posing as Sublieutenant Setal explaining the Romulan Militarys reason for seeking war with the Federation, which in turn explains Shinzon's debt to their support, and the Viceroys constant reminder of the "Misson".
The mere Examples of Commander Sela's posistion and the fact she is a half breed, Ensign Stefan Deseve a human defector serving in their armed forces-all are relevant to how Shinzon was a commander in the first place-and even Donatras advances towards him.
The Continunig Committee, the posistions of Chairman, vice Chairman and even the War Plans council jarred with me, in fact they were too heavy handed analogy for the Soviet system and the fact that they appeared in one episode of the last season of DS9 did not help either.
As you have and I noted, Senators in Romulan Empire are given quite a bit of power in diplomatic actions, and even take the lead in military matters, Senator Cretak and Senator Letant are key in in deciding the actions of the Romulan Fleet in the Dominion War, its not until very late in DS9 does my namesake make an apperance-A General that commits the Romulans to final attack on Cardassia.
This supports the Romulans militarys desire to take control from the Senate, to finally act against the Federation.
How would you say a Proconsul gets to Praetor (Like Neral) and what the Proconsuls duties are in relation to the Praetor in Star Trek, as you have pointed out a Proconsul could outrank him in the Roman model.
The 8 members of the continuing Comittee on what merit are they chosen, and hows does the outside title of "Chairman" equate with Senatorial rank? The clear lack of a Military Representive-while the Tal Shiar has a posistion, was a clear step to the Miltary looking for a way around this.
As far as the Post Nemesis situation, Its clear one member of the Senate (Senator Tal'Aura) was a key part of the coup, she is is present with the big 3- Suran, Noram and Talvin. I as I stated I belive there would be other Senators not present at the Senate that were part of the coup.
I see Tal Aura assuming a big role in in a rebulit Senate, but her masters are the miltary coup leaders. Tal'Aura is very useful, The coup can maintain the face of domestic stability, and the miltary can have the final say.She is even more guilty than they-then Donatras action, led to Riker being sent off to discuss something with them, sadly this will never be better explained.
Even more frustrating with the "Editing" Is the clear evidence more Senate scenes were filmed and even Donatra talking with her crew! The Romulans needed all the scenes they could get.
The remaining Remans would become the scapegoats for the "Horrific deaths of Hiren and the Seantors that day" Its another Irony, that thoughout the film, is everyone but the Romulans calling them slaves. They wre a undesiarable caste as Data stated, but still Imperial citizens,but as has been shown, The Romulans make use of what you do, not who you are. The Remans were useful labourers that could utilised in wartime.
The Remans were in a "Caste" of the Romulan Empire, meaning any citizen could be there, not just Remans, Military Officer Talvin stood before Hiren and openly argued for an alliance with "Shinzon of Remus", this means that it was almost like a union of workers/cannon fodder were
in a situation for such a possabilty regardless of how remote to align themselves with the Senate, It got to a stage where the Military were petitoning it.
Sela, Deseve and Shizon all highlight that regardless of racial origin, gender or clone or not:), Its your actions that elevates you-Very Interesting-Your Thoughts?
Publius wrote:A discussion on the Romulan political system - with
emphasis on the nature of Senatorial dignity in the Romulan state - may be found here.
As noted, the most current issue of Star Trek Magazine discusses the Romulans, and reveals that the production staff intended for the Tal'Shiar to be a parallel to the Committee of State Security (KGB) and its various predecessors in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and for the Continuing Committee a parallel to the Political Bureau (Politburo) of the Communist Party.
Ironically, this is a change from the original series, in which the Romulan Star Empire was a parallel to the People's Republic of China, and the Klingon Empire to the Soviet Union.
Indeed, Face of the Enemy was influenced by such Novels like Hunt for the Red October. Commander Toreths debate with "Major Rakal" was a summary of the Russian Militarys Problem with the KGB and the Party. The Romulans in Balance of Terror (TOS) were clearly based on a Roman theme-The "Chinese" analogy emerged as in their relationship in the big 3 (UFP, Klingons and Roms) They mirroed Sino- Soviet Relations in regards to their on/off alliance with Klingons.
By TNG, The Romulans theme was a pronounced "Devious Cold war Era Mysterious Chinese one" Right down to Padded Tunics etc.
Publius your a fellow Romulan/Roman fan that I take my hat off to, Its ironic but I wrote such a piece without the clear diction skill you have on Trekweb BBS, I have been a Romulan fan for over a decade now, I waited patiently for a chance for Romulans to get a part on the big screen, more than 2 ambassadors, one dead one (A mercy as it was Generations) ! So when Nemesis was revealed to have some content for them I rejoiced.
The shock I got, was not from the film but the massive misconception of TNG Romulans the internet vocal fanbase had. Overnight Legions of "Romulan Experts" popped up, parroting each other with this now legendary urban myth of Romulan Xenophobia-Ignoring the key facts revealed on this Race in TNGS "The Neutral Zone" Trois revelation of Starfleets knowledge of them (A short scene that unravels many "experts" attacks on the Romulans military support of Shinzon)
The fact of their own voluntary killing of their babys for natural defects in "The Enemy"
The great episode "The Defector" which is directly relevant to Nemesis with Admiral Jarok posing as Sublieutenant Setal explaining the Romulan Militarys reason for seeking war with the Federation, which in turn explains Shinzon's debt to their support, and the Viceroys constant reminder of the "Misson".
The mere Examples of Commander Sela's posistion and the fact she is a half breed, Ensign Stefan Deseve a human defector serving in their armed forces-all are relevant to how Shinzon was a commander in the first place-and even Donatras advances towards him.
The Continunig Committee, the posistions of Chairman, vice Chairman and even the War Plans council jarred with me, in fact they were too heavy handed analogy for the Soviet system and the fact that they appeared in one episode of the last season of DS9 did not help either.
As you have and I noted, Senators in Romulan Empire are given quite a bit of power in diplomatic actions, and even take the lead in military matters, Senator Cretak and Senator Letant are key in in deciding the actions of the Romulan Fleet in the Dominion War, its not until very late in DS9 does my namesake make an apperance-A General that commits the Romulans to final attack on Cardassia.
This supports the Romulans militarys desire to take control from the Senate, to finally act against the Federation.
How would you say a Proconsul gets to Praetor (Like Neral) and what the Proconsuls duties are in relation to the Praetor in Star Trek, as you have pointed out a Proconsul could outrank him in the Roman model.
The 8 members of the continuing Comittee on what merit are they chosen, and hows does the outside title of "Chairman" equate with Senatorial rank? The clear lack of a Military Representive-while the Tal Shiar has a posistion, was a clear step to the Miltary looking for a way around this.
As far as the Post Nemesis situation, Its clear one member of the Senate (Senator Tal'Aura) was a key part of the coup, she is is present with the big 3- Suran, Noram and Talvin. I as I stated I belive there would be other Senators not present at the Senate that were part of the coup.
I see Tal Aura assuming a big role in in a rebulit Senate, but her masters are the miltary coup leaders. Tal'Aura is very useful, The coup can maintain the face of domestic stability, and the miltary can have the final say.She is even more guilty than they-then Donatras action, led to Riker being sent off to discuss something with them, sadly this will never be better explained.
Even more frustrating with the "Editing" Is the clear evidence more Senate scenes were filmed and even Donatra talking with her crew! The Romulans needed all the scenes they could get.
The remaining Remans would become the scapegoats for the "Horrific deaths of Hiren and the Seantors that day" Its another Irony, that thoughout the film, is everyone but the Romulans calling them slaves. They wre a undesiarable caste as Data stated, but still Imperial citizens,but as has been shown, The Romulans make use of what you do, not who you are. The Remans were useful labourers that could utilised in wartime.
The Remans were in a "Caste" of the Romulan Empire, meaning any citizen could be there, not just Remans, Military Officer Talvin stood before Hiren and openly argued for an alliance with "Shinzon of Remus", this means that it was almost like a union of workers/cannon fodder were
in a situation for such a possabilty regardless of how remote to align themselves with the Senate, It got to a stage where the Military were petitoning it.
Sela, Deseve and Shizon all highlight that regardless of racial origin, gender or clone or not:), Its your actions that elevates you-Very Interesting-Your Thoughts?