The Case For Genocide Against Phlox And Archer

[18-Till-I-Die]

Also, you know, the more you think about it the more it becomes kind of asinine. That you can cure this. It's supposedly part of their DNA, some actual flaw that's been getting worse by the genetations and now it's hit a fever pitch. So whatever "immunity" the Menk have would be pretty much useless in the long term. At best it means the Menk have some genetic mutation that protects them from a similar disorder, but it doesn't equate to a literal immunity.

Trying to "cure" a genetic disorder is like trying to cure being blind with drugs. With surgery yeah, but you can't just inject someone with something and they get new eyes. So whatever this cure is, it isn't a cure, by any logical standpoint it's a stopgap.

Unless, like I said, it actually re-writes their DNA.

[18-Till-I-Die]

And before someone says it, I'm not saying this is ethically right or morally right, I'm saying that you're trying to fix something that is broken on a basic, fundimental level. You can't just recreate their DNA from scratch, these people are not just dying they're falling apart. Fixing them is like fixing a car that's never going to run again, it can't be done and even if it could be done, it would literally help them do jack. Apparently they already hit a technological and societal wall and needed SPACE PEOPLE to come and give them stuff. Like warp, like antimatter reactors. They literally couldn't think of this on their own, the stuff that the Klingons, who hit each other all day, could come up with. Whatever is going on is possibly more fundimental than just a disease.

It's not ethical to let them die, but it's not logical to try and fix something that's uselessly broken either. The best I could do, I guess, would be to provide as much of a stopgap as possible in that situation.

[Patrick Degan]

Also, you know, the more you think about it the more it becomes kind of asinine. That you can cure this. It's supposedly part of their DNA, some actual flaw that's been getting worse by the genetations and now it's hit a fever pitch. So whatever "immunity" the Menk have would be pretty much useless in the long term. At best it means the Menk have some genetic mutation that protects them from a similar disorder, but it doesn't equate to a literal immunity.

Trying to "cure" a genetic disorder is like trying to cure being blind with drugs. With surgery yeah, but you can't just inject someone with something and they get new eyes. So whatever this cure is, it isn't a cure, by any logical standpoint it's a stopgap.

Unless, like I said, it actually re-writes their DNA.

And before someone says it, I'm not saying this is ethically right or morally right, I'm saying that you're trying to fix something that is broken on a basic, fundimental level. You can't just recreate their DNA from scratch, these people are not just dying they're falling apart. Fixing them is like fixing a car that's never going to run again, it can't be done and even if it could be done, it would literally help them do jack. Apparently they already hit a technological and societal wall and needed SPACE PEOPLE to come and give them stuff. Like warp, like antimatter reactors. They literally couldn't think of this on their own, the stuff that the Klingons, who hit each other all day, could come up with. Whatever is going on is possibly more fundimental than just a disease.

It's not ethical to let them die, but it's not logical to try and fix something that's uselessly broken either. The best I could do, I guess, would be to provide as much of a stopgap as possible in that situation.

This is a joke, right? In our own world today, we actually are on the verge of correcting genetic disorders with genetic engineering. Phlox actually does discover the means to correct this condition which is endangering the Valakians, which means that it was not an impossible feat. And just what the fuck does it matter that SPACE PEOPLE had to give them the means to overcome their disorder to save their species?! The point is that, if it's feasible to correct genetic disorders so that a species can continue to thrive, this "roadblock" you keep babbling on about is removed. Their lives can be saved, their species can continue, and the ethical thing is to proceed with the process and save the people who are endangered by this condition.

Your ENTIRE ARGUMENT boils down to simply accepting "biological destiny" and letting a sentient species die —nevermind that there is no such thing as biological destiny and also that the programme it outlines is immoral in the extreme. You keep trying to say that's not the position you're defending but in point of fact it is exactly the position you've been arguing. Well, you can't have it both ways.

[Junghalli]

Also, you know, the more you think about it the more it becomes kind of asinine. That you can cure this. It's supposedly part of their DNA, some actual flaw that's been getting worse by the genetations and now it's hit a fever pitch. So whatever "immunity" the Menk have would be pretty much useless in the long term. At best it means the Menk have some genetic mutation that protects them from a similar disorder, but it doesn't equate to a literal immunity.

Trying to "cure" a genetic disorder is like trying to cure being blind with drugs. With surgery yeah, but you can't just inject someone with something and they get new eyes. So whatever this cure is, it isn't a cure, by any logical standpoint it's a stopgap.

Unless, like I said, it actually re-writes their DNA.

If the root cause is a genetic disorder Phlox talking about the Menk having an immunity was pretty stupid: their "immunity" is they can't interbreed with the Valakians so there's no way for the defective gene to get into their gene pool! Sonnenburg pointed this out, actually.

As for treating a genetic disorder, we're already working on gene therapies that work by inserting healthy genes into cells to replace malfunctioning ones. There's also the possibility of switching the defective gene off, say by getting a protein to bind to it. It happens all the time in individual cells naturally after all; a neuron, a muscle cell, and a skin cell all have the same DNA. Or, depending on exactly what the disease mechanism is it may be something as simple as giving them a supplement for some vital protein their bodies are no longer able to manufacture. Being blind isn't necessarily the best analogy as the problem seems to be on the metabolic level rather than outright absence of an organ structure; the former is a lot easier to correct just by somehow changing or shutting down the relevant gene.

This is, of course, ignoring the giant middle finger aimed at Darwin that is a fatal congenital disease somehow being spread to 100% of the population and not selected against. Honestly, if "evolution" is actually happening the way it's presented in the episode the most rational explanation might be that it's actually a malicious Q screwing around. And I'm not even really joking when I say that.

[Thanas]

Your ENTIRE ARGUMENT boils down to simply accepting "biological destiny" and letting a sentient species die —nevermind that there is no such thing as biological destiny and also that the programme it outlines is immoral in the extreme. You keep trying to say that's not the position you're defending but in point of fact it is exactly the position you've been arguing. Well, you can't have it both ways.

If one would take his argument to the extreme, one should also not have discovered any type of medicine, because after all, if your biology is not good enough on its own, you don't deserve to survive.

[Chris OFarrell]

And we should go back to living in caves, running down other animals and pounding them with our hands and so on, because clearly otherwise we are violating our biological destiny!

[lstyer]

And before someone says it, I'm not saying this is ethically right or morally right, I'm saying that you're trying to fix something that is broken on a basic, fundimental level. You can't just recreate their DNA from scratch, these people are not just dying they're falling apart. Fixing them is like fixing a car that's never going to run again, it can't be done and even if it could be done, it would literally help them do jack.

The whole situation is silly, but according to the premise of the episode, apparently Phlox can recreate their DNA from scratch or whatever it is he'd need to do to fix whatever it is that is wrong with them. The "dilemma" in the episode is whether to help them, not whether it's possible to help them. For the purpose of the story their nonsensical condition is fixable.

[Darth Wong]

It's funny how 18 vehemently denies that he is engaging in a moral appeal to nature even though anyone can plainly see that he has in fact been stridently doing so since his very first post in this thread.

[Jade Owl]

Another factor that’s always bothered me about Phlox’s behavior in the Valakian incident is the fact that later on the series during the Augment arc, Phlox himself lets us know on Denobula genetic engineering has been used for centuries to an apparently positive effect. While they apparently don’t go as far as actual Eugenics, they seem to have no problem using it for medical treatment.

Why the hell is it OK for Denobulans to use genetics engineering to circumvent “Nature”, but not for the Valakians? If “Nature” had decided that the Valakians should die so the Menk could prosper, then why not apply the same standards to his own species?

[Serafina]

Another factor that’s always bothered me about Phlox’s behavior in the Valakian incident is the fact that later on the series during the Augment arc, Phlox himself lets us know on Denobula genetic engineering has been used for centuries to an apparently positive effect. While they apparently don’t go as far as actual Eugenics, they seem to have no problem using it for medical treatment.

Why the hell is it OK for Denobulans to use genetics engineering to circumvent “Nature”, but not for the Valakians? If “Nature” had decided that the Valakians should die so the Menk could prosper, then why not apply the same standards to his own species?

This actually makes sense from their point of view: they discovered genetic engineering on their own, so its within their own "natural capabilities".
Also, they are only treating individuals, not their whole species.

It all really boils down to "if you can not help yourself, i will not help you". Whether or not another species profits from it is pretty irrelevant - the Valakians are dieing NOW, the menk COULD prosper in a couple thousand years.

If we use their "logic", a doctor could let the rich aunt of some young inventor die, so that this inventor can "reach his true potential" now, instead of later. After all, its all natural, and she is holding back someone else.

[Samuel]

Another factor that’s always bothered me about Phlox’s behavior in the Valakian incident is the fact that later on the series during the Augment arc, Phlox himself lets us know on Denobula genetic engineering has been used for centuries to an apparently positive effect. While they apparently don’t go as far as actual Eugenics, they seem to have no problem using it for medical treatment.

Why the hell is it OK for Denobulans to use genetics engineering to circumvent “Nature”, but not for the Valakians? If “Nature” had decided that the Valakians should die so the Menk could prosper, then why not apply the same standards to his own species?

No one uses eugenics in the series except humanity- selective breeding for positive traits simply takes too long.

[Junghalli]

And we should go back to living in caves, running down other animals and pounding them with our hands and so on, because clearly otherwise we are violating our biological destiny!

Actually, humanity has had relatively sophisticated tool use for longer than it has been Homo Sapiens (for instance, throwing spears are twice as old as our species, and fire is even older), so you could make a fairly good argument that stone tools are part of our "natural" behavior at a biological level. There was never a time when our species in its anatomically modern form did not use them, and their use may well have shaped our biology*.

You are, however, still correct that by the idiot logic of "nature always knows best" we should give up almost everything we ever invented and go back to living like bushmen.

* Of course, the same is true for later inventions. Widespread lactose tolerance is almost certainly an adaptation to an animal-raising lifestyle, for example.

[Pablo Sanchez]

Actually, humanity has had relatively sophisticated tool use for longer than it has been Homo Sapiens (for instance, throwing spears are twice as old as our species, and fire is even older), so you could make a fairly good argument that stone tools are part of our "natural" behavior at a biological level. There was never a time when our species in its anatomically modern form did not use them, and their use may well have shaped our biology*.

I think the point Chris was trying to make is that medical technology is an adaptation of human intellect the same as any other tool, so arguing that medical technology subverts nature is like arguing that hammers subvert nature.

[Chris OFarrell]

Bingo.

And even more amusingly, by Phlox being a doctor who USES advanced medical techniques such as Genetic Engineering, he is interfering directly in the 'natural process'!

The stance B&B try to shove down your throat is full of so many holes it is just not funny. I would have loved it if the Doctor Phlox was writing to in this episode wrote back in a later episode saying 'ARE YOU GOD DAMN INSANE?', followed by a mention of how the Vulcans had to rush in and save the population with the apologies of the Earth Government or something...

[Swindle1984]

Your ENTIRE ARGUMENT boils down to simply accepting "biological destiny" and letting a sentient species die —nevermind that there is no such thing as biological destiny and also that the programme it outlines is immoral in the extreme. You keep trying to say that's not the position you're defending but in point of fact it is exactly the position you've been arguing. Well, you can't have it both ways.

If one would take his argument to the extreme, one should also not have discovered any type of medicine, because after all, if your biology is not good enough on its own, you don't deserve to survive.

Or at the very least, we should let diabetics die rather than provide "stopgap" measures like providing insulin to keep them alive. After all, they're fundamentally flawed.