Non-Federation Diplomats

[FTeik]

So the Gorn are so aggressive, that we have seen or heard from them in ... how many episodes again? And in case you have forgotten, Kirk didn't behave any better. His tribe/territory had been attacked, so lets kill the offenders. There is a reason the Metron called both species "semi-savages".

And once again, doubt isn't enough to base a trial and a conviction on.

[Kythnos]

I brought up the possibility of him having most probably concealed himself against casual, non-medical scans.

For which I am sure you have tons of evidence, like we only see him when the Enterprise is not around or only in areas of the station "heavily shielded". A far better answer is that there was no reason for anyone else to scan him as he looked and acted human.

Save your snark since that is not my argument at all. Read my posts again.

Sorry just repeating snark for snark.

Gorn are dumb and primitive so all humanoids are the same for them.

If you want to stick to canon only maybe you should.
1) Gorn attack Cestus 3 colony. An action that even Kirk agrees could have been self-defense.
2) They have little or no other contact with the Federation. To the point that Sisko wonders what fighting one would be like, implying no one else ever has.
3) The Federation has a colony on Cestus 3, which if no one else has fought them means they gave the world to the Federation.

Clearly the mark of an aggressor solely devoted to the destruction of other races. (in your mind I am sure)

[Metahive]

So the Gorn are so aggressive, that we have seen or heard from them in ... how many episodes again? And in case you have forgotten, Kirk didn't behave any better. His tribe/territory had been attacked, so lets kill the offenders. There is a reason the Metron called both species "semi-savages".

So, actual aggressiveness is solely decided by number of on-screen appearances? Hey, if they stick to their own bubble but just murder anyone coming in, they can be super-aggressive xenophobes without being all that much heard of since the Federation has a hands-off approach most of the time. There, reasonable enough.

Also, Kirk chasing after the the people who have just massacred a whole outpost worth of people is like...massacring a whole outpost worth of people? Forgotten that there were only Federation corpses but not one single Gorn corpse in the whole episode? How's that any different from the US going after Al-Q? Heck, Al-Q says that they are fighting the West because they consider them intruders in Muslim space. I guess that makes them and the US even now.

And once again, doubt isn't enough to base a trial and a conviction on.

The smoldering ruins and corpses on Cestus III remove all doubt.

For which I am sure you have tons of evidence, like we only see him when the Enterprise is not around or only in areas of the station "heavily shielded". A far better answer is that there was no reason for anyone else to scan him as he looked and acted human.

D'uh, dude, such casual scanning occurs whenever someone is transported from one place to another. Since that didn't blow his cover, it's reasonable to presume he concealed himself in some way.
Also, that's the last thing I'm going to say on this since this belongs to a non-canon tangent.

1) Gorn attack Cestus 3 colony. An action that even Kirk agrees could have been self-defense.

How's attacking people that weren't any threat to you "self-defense"? That's a gross perversion of the term. Crappy writing also can't be justified with more crappy writing.

2) They have little or no other contact with the Federation. To the point that Sisko wonders what fighting one would be like, implying no one else ever has.
3) The Federation has a colony on Cestus 3, which if no one else has fought them means they gave the world to the Federation.

That's nought but related to your stupid strawman below.

Clearly the mark of an aggressor solely devoted to the destruction of other races.

You will now quote were I said the Gorn were "an aggressor solely devoted to the destruction of other races" or your will better damn apologize for this abominable strawman. I said they were irrationally aggressive for murdering everyone they perceive as intruder in their territory and stupid for not marking that space in any way.
Not the fucking same thing.

Since certain Gorn Fetishists here can't do better than making abstrusely outlandish arguments, make shit up or outright lie about my arguments, I myself consider this debate to be over as far as this specific tangent is concerned.

The Gorn incident can't be used as a precedent to show that the Federations advance into the Gamma Quadrant justified an aggressive response from the Dominion.

In case anybody forgot what this was originally about.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Fair enough, I'll agree we've certainly strayed from the OT.

[Kythnos]

The Gorn incident can't be used as a precedent to show that the Federations advance into the Gamma Quadrant justified an aggressive response from the Dominion.
In case anybody forgot what this was originally about.

Here is the Funny part I have always agreed with this statement.
The fear and hatred the Founders show toward the Solids, all but guaranteed a war with them as soon as they learned of the wormhole. You can even take this conclusion farther in saying that the war will continue as soon as they have a way to send ships to attack the Alpha quadrant. If you actual put any thought in to the conclusions reached from my first statement about the Gorn you would have seen this.

D'uh, dude, such casual scanning occurs whenever someone is transported from one place to another. Since that didn't blow his cover, it's reasonable to presume he concealed himself in some way.
Also, that's the last thing I'm going to say on this since this belongs to a non-canon tangent.

Have you ever watched ST? I can not count the number of times where “imposters” beam aboard ships (Not going to look it up but off the top of my head: Robot made to look like Kirk, Odo looking like a “bag” and 2 “humans” who could assume other shapes from TNG. Not once did the transporter alert anyone as to the difference.) How many times did the Scanner on the transporter detect anything like that? In truth the only things we know that it looks for is known disease and weapons. That is only if he used the transporter from the station he could have docked with it or used his own transporter both of which negate the need to hide.

Another thing:

We are not going to demand to prove a negative here, aren't we? Neither the Gorn nor the Metron do claim that markers were present but overlooked or misunderstood in the episode.

This only applies if the over all weight of the evidence is backing your claim. (ex: If you are saying that humans and andorians can have children and I am saying they cannot the burden of proof would be on me. There is massive evidence of interspecies children in ST.)
In this case however the Episodes support the other conclusion. Unless you can quote me a few episodes where “markers” are respected.

Here's another reason to mark your territory clearly and obviously: because how else can you prove it is actually yours? If the Metron hadn't stated it, the Federation would have no reason to believe the intruded upon someone else's territory and plenty of reason to consider the Gorn the intruder.

That worked so well for the First Federation and the Melkot. Is in no way proves there was any marker but it does cast doubt on the fact there was none.

1) Gorn attack Cestus 3 colony. An action that even Kirk agrees could have been self-defense.

How's attacking people that weren't any threat to you "self-defense"? That's a gross perversion of the term. Crappy writing also can't be justified with more crappy writing.

So when proven wrong by canon your conclusion is “canon is wrong”. Why does that sound so familiar…

You will now quote were I said the Gorn were "an aggressor solely devoted to the destruction of other races" or your will better damn apologize for this abominable strawman.

Sure, did you even read your own posts?

I said they were irrationally aggressive for murdering everyone they perceive as intruder in their territory and stupid for not marking that space in any way.

Hey, if they stick to their own bubble but just murder anyone coming in, they can be super-aggressive xenophobes without being all that much heard of since the Federation has a hands-off approach most of the time.

The aggressive and sudden attack out of the blue is enough to throw everything the Gorn says into doubt. A murderer isn't to be trusted.

even more so after showing that there's indeed an aggressive species prowling the neighbourhood

ag·gres·sive:
1.characterized by or tending toward unprovoked offensives, attacks, invasions, or the like; militantly forward or menacing: aggressive acts against a neighboring country.
2.making an all-out effort to win or succeed; competitive: an aggressive basketball player.
3.vigorously energetic, esp. in the use of initiative and forcefulness: an aggressive salesperson.
4.boldly assertive and forward; pushy: an aggressive driver.
5.emphasizing maximum growth and capital gains over quality, security, and income: an aggressive mutual fund.


ir·ra·tion·al:
1.without the faculty of reason; deprived of reason.
2.without or deprived of normal mental clarity or sound judgment.
3.not in accordance with reason; utterly illogical: irrational arguments.
4.not endowed with the faculty of reason: irrational animals.

Since certain Gorn Fetishists here can't do better than making abstrusely outlandish arguments, make shit up or outright lie about my arguments, I myself consider this debate to be over as far as this specific tangent is concerned.

“Gorn Fetishists” saying that those against you are only such because of blind devotion and nothing else.

Whys should I lie when you are proving the point so well.

[Metahive]

*groan*

In truth the only things we know that it looks for is known disease and weapons. That is only if he used the transporter from the station he could have docked with it or used his own transporter both of which negate the need to hide.

Conceded, since it belongs to an irrelevant tangent anyway.

In this case however the Episodes support the other conclusion. Unless you can quote me a few episodes where “markers” are respected.

You're moving the goalposts, amigo. We are talking about the existence of markers around Cestus III here, not how respected they are, that's irrelevant for this debate.
Also, in the Tholian Web, once they see they've entered occupied territory and are told to leave, they do. It's only contrived plot necessities that keep them there in the end.

That worked so well for the First Federation and the Melkot. Is in no way proves there was any marker but it does cast doubt on the fact there was none.

Since that's related to your blatant goalpost moving, irrelevant.

So when proven wrong by canon your conclusion is “canon is wrong”. Why does that sound so familiar…

At the moment I don't know what Kirk exactly says, so you will also kindly cough up the quotes, but anyway. Question, is anything Kirk says automatically true and to be taken as gospel? You will get into quite a debate if you answer this with "yes", I only say "Metamorphosis" and "Star Trek VI". Kirk is only a human being and his judgement fallible.
O yeah, and at the end they fly right back to Cestus III anyway, so there's that.

Sure, did you even read your own posts?

Yes, I did. You however didn't. Or you just suck at reading comprehension, you pick.

I say:
"I said they were irrationally aggressive for murdering everyone they perceive as intruder in their territory and stupid for not marking that space in any way."

You transmogrify this into:
"Clearly the mark of an aggressor solely devoted to the destruction of other races."

Guess what, the second doesn't follow from the first. Also, you're equivocating on "aggression". I'm using aggressive as in "resorting to extreme measures at the slightest provocation", you use it as "actively going out and looking for fights". So you still owe me an apology. Now I also want one for lying about it twice. Also, isn't aggressively and irrationally murdering intruders exactly what they do in the episode? You Gorn Fetishists have so offered so far nought but flimsy assumptions as to why their actions might have been justified.

Whys should I lie when you are proving the point so well.

What do I know, maybe you're just stupid or maybe you just like arguing in bad faith, I don't give a fucking shit about what exactly makes you a liar, just that you're one.

[Wyrm]

How does one establish a "marker" in space and assure that it will be understood, much less respected, unless there's prior contact to make clear that those markers are in fact boarder markers, rather than some other navigational device? And how does one ensure that the marker will be respected unless there is a treaty in place telling each party what that marker means?

Even if we transmit "Gorn Space! Keep Out!" that's no guarantee at all that it would be understood, because the message will probably be in Gornish, and the invaders probably don't speak it. With such a limited sample, that message could literally mean anything, or nothing as it may only be a means of providing a strong signal to lock onto for navigation purposes. Even a Universal Translator needs a sizable corpus before it can begin working — or in the case of the TOS psychic UT, a mind that is using the language, which the buoy won't have. About all you get from its presence is the existence of a power to contact, and that's far short of what you want it to do for you.

Also, if the boarder is established by buoys, what's the prevent a power from dropping buoys willy-nilly and claiming territory that way? Especially when what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and the other power can retaliate by dropping its own marker buoys and you end up in a buoy war.

No, it's retarded to think that a marker system can work in a vacuum. There's no way that a marker system could be expected to work unless there's prior contact and treaty establishing their meaning and validity. The first step to any normalized relation is diplomacy.

[Metahive]

If you think so then the least the Gorn could have done is putting a manned outpost on the planet. There. Problem solved with minimal fuss.

You will surely agree that shoot first ask questions later isn't a very good policy when it comes to establishing diplomatic ties.

Also, if the boarder is established by buoys, what's the prevent a power from dropping buoys willy-nilly and claiming territory that way?

Or even better, do as the Gorn, don't drop buoys but claim the planet anyway.

[Wyrm]

If you think so then the least the Gorn could have done is putting a manned outpost on the planet. There. Problem solved with minimal fuss.

Which they didn't do. If they did, there would be little argument over who really owned Cestus 3. And by the logic of your premise of possession being 9/10ths of the law, the Federation was the one who first had a permanent presence on Cestus 3, and thus it was theirs by right. So the Gorn attack is exactly as it appears, an unprovoked attack from a power that gave no adequate indication at all that it owned the space it claimed.

You will surely agree that shoot first ask questions later isn't a very good policy when it comes to establishing diplomatic ties.

Of course it isn't. When the dispute is along the boundary of your territory, reason dictates that neither has legitimate prior claim to the disputed territory.

The wormhole, however, makes the geometry of the Dominion conflict much different. A well defended boarder and peoples inside who are loyal to your governance (or at least, well-subjugated to the point of non-resistance to same) despite your lack of direct stewardship means that indeed you do have legitimate prior claim to that territory, even if your presence may be lacking. The wormhole offers a way into these deep territories without having to go through the boundary, and therefore through the defenses that would impede a normal invader, and make it clear that —yeah— this territory is indeed yours.

When you have a geometry-breaking feature of space like the wormhole, you cannot assume that just because the space is relatively barren of the presence of a power unknown, that the space is unclaimed and therefore you may take what you want. If the space enclosing that barren space is indeed heavily defended, absent the wormhole there would be no grounds to argue that the space inside is unclaimed. The Dominion had a reasonable expectation that the space would remain theirs, and the presence of the wormhole won't change that.

While the Dominion might have given a friendly "BUGGER OFF!" when they realized the Federation's meddling, but they were well within their rights to use whatever force necessary to repel them. Diplomacy would begin once the Federation was back on their side of the wormhole, the clear dividing line between Dominion territory and Alpha quadrant territory. I'm sorry, but I cannot help but to see that it was mostly the Federation at fault here.

[Metahive]

Which they didn't do. If they did, there would be little argument over who really owned Cestus 3. And by the logic of your premise of possession being 9/10ths of the law, the Federation was the one who first had a permanent presence on Cestus 3, and thus it was theirs by right. So the Gorn attack is exactly as it appears, an unprovoked attack from a power that gave no adequate indication at all that it owned the space it claimed.

Ummm, I can't help but notice that we have a slight miscommunication here since I totally agree that the Gorn attack was unprovoked and that they acted unwisely by not putting an outpost on the planet. I don't see where you got the impression from I'm on the Gorn's side here.

While the Dominion might have given a friendly "BUGGER OFF!" when they realized the Federation's meddling, but they were well within their rights to use whatever force necessary to repel them. Diplomacy would begin once the Federation was back on their side of the wormhole, the clear dividing line between Dominion territory and Alpha quadrant territory. I'm sorry, but I cannot help but to see that it was mostly the Federation at fault here.

First of all, I don't agree that the Dominion automatically has eminent domain over all space beyond the gamma quadrant exit of the wormhole. Such things aren't granted by default but the very subject to negotiations.

Also, why I think the Federation can't be faulted here is that the Dominion did absolutely nothing in two years, despite its subjects already having contact with the Alpha Quadrant colonists, so they could have at any time claimed ownership of all space beyond the wormhole and asked the colonists to go...but didn't. They waited that long and then out of the blue sprung their trap. No, I can't fault the Federation or Bayor here.

[Wyrm]

Ummm, I can't help but notice that we have a slight miscommunication here since I totally agree that the Gorn attack was unprovoked and that they acted unwisely by not putting an outpost on the planet. I don't see where you got the impression from I'm on the Gorn's side here.

It was mostly an objection to the notion that a marker is sufficient to establish territory. Really, the only way to make sure is to base actual warm bodies there.

First of all, I don't agree that the Dominion automatically has eminent domain over all space beyond the gamma quadrant exit of the wormhole. Such things aren't granted by default but the very subject to negotiations.

We don't know the political arrangement on the other side of the wormhole with any clarity. For all we know, the Dominion saw a covert invasion/colonization force right smack in the middle of space they had good reason to believe was theirs by virtue of being well within their defended boarders. And the races that were encountered on the other side makes it pretty clear that the Dominion is the real controling power in that region. I give the benefit of the doubt here to the Dominion, as the Federation behaved as if it was unclaimed space when the nature of the wormhole meant that no assumption of that nature could be made.

Also, why I think the Federation can't be faulted here is that the Dominion did absolutely nothing in two years, despite its subjects already having contact with the Alpha Quadrant colonists, so they could have at any time claimed ownership of all space beyond the wormhole and asked the colonists to go...but didn't. They waited that long and then out of the blue sprung their trap. No, I can't fault the Federation or Bayor here.

I don't call contacts with subjects any sort of official contact, and about all of those subjects were saying that the Dominion is a right nasty bunch. We don't know how long it took the Dominion government to become aware of what the Federation was in broad strokes (for all they knew, the Federation might have been some loose collection of rebels not worth bothering with at the moment until they learned otherwise). The first official contact with the Federation was exactly blowing the everliving fuck out of those colonies. That first contact was also a cover to plant a Vorta spy, Eris, into Federation territory. Such an operation can take a while to put together, especially if it takes a while to realize that this isn't just some home-grown faction, but an alien power coming through a wormhole from parts unknown, with expansionist aspirations, I might add. The Dominion had every reason to see the Federation as an immediate threat, and the Federation had no grounds to believe the space on the other side was unclaimed.

[Metahive]

Hello, Wyrm, sorry for the long delay.

It was mostly an objection to the notion that a marker is sufficient to establish territory. Really, the only way to make sure is to base actual warm bodies there.

I never quite said it would be sufficient as a territorial marker by itself, just enough to convince eventual colonizers to look out for spacefaring people in the vicinity who might or might not have a territorial claim on the planet. I myself consider the Master of Orion II model (no legitimate territorial claim until outpost/colony is established on site) to be a sufficient standard concerning such affairs.

For all we know, the Dominion saw a covert invasion/colonization force right smack in the middle of space they had good reason to believe was theirs by virtue of being well within their defended boarders.

That is exactly the attitude an empire led by aggressive and paranoid xenophobes like the Changelings would have. Problem is they're, well, aggressive and paranoid xenophobes so I wouldn't take their MO as a representative or desirable model when it comes to territorial disputes.

The Dominion had every reason to see the Federation as an immediate threat, and the Federation had no grounds to believe the space on the other side was unclaimed.

I think it all boils down as to when exactly a spacefaring power can legitimately claim a planet or starsystem to be its. I find it rather troubling that even the Federation claims possession of planets it has mapped but left alone, even when there are "indigenous" people on it, like the Fountain of Youth planet in Insurrection. So yeah, allowing Bajor to colonize planets left and right in the Gamma Quadrant might have been reckless, I however still consider the reaction of the Dominion to be grossly disproportionate and largely unjustified since those colonies were not there for military purposes, but then again, the Dominion is led by aggressive and paranoid xenophobes.

[Wyrm]

I never quite said it would be sufficient as a territorial marker by itself, just enough to convince eventual colonizers to look out for spacefaring people in the vicinity who might or might not have a territorial claim on the planet.

While an alien artifact does indicate that a spacefaring people might be around, it doesn't guarantee that the spacefaring people are around even if the marker is in working order (T'kon and Iconians). In particular, it may take a somewhat detailed examination of the marker to find out that it must be regularly serviced (as opposed to one that has a long service life, or is self-maintaining — which quite frankly one of the things you want out of a marker). It also assumes that the colonists (who are not necessarily authorized by the Federation or other entity to colonize a planet) even care about that, either by hoping that they can secure squatter's rights, or that their host government can protect them if things go south. An entity can get into trouble even if it isn't strictly the fault of policy makers and executives.

In the end, territory in Star Trek seems to be founded on defensible borders. Basically, anything found on the interior of a defensible border is, by all practical measure, the territory of the entity maintaining that border. Even borders agreed on by treaty are essentially "we can make you hurt if you violate this boundary, through immediate action or by extended conflict with you, so do us both a favor and don't bother trying." The consequences can be hard (military) or soft (economic). The treaty merely formalizes it, provides some grease in case of violations, and depends on each government's ability to uphold it. This includes handling shenanningans by colonial squatters.

That is exactly the attitude an empire led by aggressive and paranoid xenophobes like the Changelings would have. Problem is they're, well, aggressive and paranoid xenophobes so I wouldn't take their MO as a representative or desirable model when it comes to territorial disputes.

That's the background assumption, isn't it? That the territory was disputed. The Founders' homeworld was a hop, skip and a jump away by ST standards, while the Dominion had been established for thousands of years before. It is inconceivable that these aggressive and paranoid xenophobes would have allowed that territory not be their territory by force of arms for thousands of years after the Dominion's founding.

A power suddenly manifesting inside one's territory so close to one's homeworld, coming from parts unknown, with very little data about both their military strength and territorial asperations, would quite frankly make anyone shit bricks. Again, I find the violence the Dominion excersized completely understandable, and part of that mission was planting a spy, to find out exactly what they were dealing with.

And just because the Federation or Bajor claims that the territory is disputed doesn't mean it is. In particular, the residents had no confusion over who really was calling the shots. Hint, it wasn't the Federation.

I think it all boils down as to when exactly a spacefaring power can legitimately claim a planet or starsystem to be its.

Given that a good case can be made that the Dominion got to the space immediately surrounding the Wormhole first, due to the fact that it is generally recognized by regionals to be miliatarily dominant and in complete control of trade, I would have to give that space to the Dominion. The Dominion basically kicked out the Federation and ferecely defended that space up until the Prophets shut the door, and what snuck through made trouble for the Alpha Quadrant afterwards.

This speaks to the area around the Wormhole to be well within the Dominion's defensible borders, which is the foundation of establishing territory. Because you can't have a binding treaty with a party you don't know about. And quite frankly, a group of subjugated races is as good as (hell, better than) a marker at establishing territory.

I find it rather troubling that even the Federation claims possession of planets it has mapped but left alone, even when there are "indigenous" people on it, like the Fountain of Youth planet in Insurrection. So yeah, allowing Bajor to colonize planets left and right in the Gamma Quadrant might have been reckless, I however still consider the reaction of the Dominion to be grossly disproportionate and largely unjustified since those colonies were not there for military purposes, but then again, the Dominion is led by aggressive and paranoid xenophobes.

"Unjustified" by what standard? The Federation? The Federation would by any realistic measure be a basket-case, and is definitely unique, such that no one can realistically be held to that standard.

It was clear from the get-go (via contact from those subjugated natives) that the Dominion are not good neighbors, and quite frankly, the Federation and Bajor were grossly irresponsible for not contacting the Dominion as soon as they became aware of their existence.

On the other hand, the reaction of the Dominion is hardly surprising, even by real-life human standards. I'd be very upset if some uninvited person was in my home even after I'd locked the doors, and I'd think of myself as a patient soul.

[Lord MJ]

I don't think it's been established that the exit of the wormhole was within the Dominion's territorial borders, nor was New Bajor within the territory of the Dominion. Their are other soverign nations in the Gamma quadrant besides the Dominion and many of them made contact with the Alpha Quadrant powers before the Federation became aware of the existence of the Dominion. Traffic from both sides was going back and forth between In fact even after contact was made, the Dominion made no effort to assume control of the wormhole sector until really after the minefield was established in the Alpha Quadrant side.

A theory is that the Dominion boundaries did not reach to the wormhole, but when they found out that vast empires existed on the other side of it, and ships of theirs were coming through, they became concerned and decided to sit back and conduct as much intelligence as possible before making their presence known. And it is entirely possible that those ships inadvertently crossed into Dominion space, and the Dominion decided to shoot first. Their is also the idea that unfortunately never made it onscreen that the Dominion already knew about the Federation long before the wormhole was opened, and the sudden discovery of the wormhole made the Dominion have to make some quick decisions about a conflict not expected to take place until decades or centuries later.

[Molyneux]

Here is the Funny part I have always agreed with this statement.
The fear and hatred the Founders show toward the Solids, all but guaranteed a war with them as soon as they learned of the wormhole. You can even take this conclusion farther in saying that the war will continue as soon as they have a way to send ships to attack the Alpha quadrant. If you actual put any thought in to the conclusions reached from my first statement about the Gorn you would have seen this.

On a side note, Star Trek Online agrees with you; Jem-Hadar attack ships have been working with extremist Cardassians (The "True Way", a bunch of not-very-nice people who want to go back to the days of the Obsidian Order) to destabilize that area of space in preparation for a Dominion invasion.

Then again, in STO everyone is fighting everyone else, so that's no big surprise.

[Setzer]

Do we have any proof that arbitrarily staking claims to territory isn't a standard procedure in Star Trek? I mean, it's not like the Federation knows every single detail of their claimed area of space. How do we know that they didn't just draw a circle around parts of the AQ and say "This is ours"?

[Metahive]

If it were standard procedure, the ST galaxy would be in permanent disarray due to constant border disputes. Is it?

[Molyneux]

If it were standard procedure, the ST galaxy would be in permanent disarray due to constant border disputes. Is it?

Actually...yeah. Aren't there a good number of episodes about border disputes between these piddly little system governments? I know that it seems to be a running theme in the novels and in STO.

[Metahive]

Is that just a gut feeling or have you put any research into that? The most prominent border disputes are about the Federation-Cardassian border involving the Maquis terrorists and the neutral zones, but those borders have either been negotiated or imposed by a higher power as in the case of the federation-klingon NZ.

STO and the novels (with the exception of a few VOY prequel novels) are not canon so I don't consider them to be relevant here.

[Setzer]

The idea popped up in my head when I remembered Mike Wong's STI review.