Can Nemesis be "fixed"?

[TheHammer]

So, I saw parts of this over the weekend and its just so damned awful.

The movie is quite rightfully lambasted here - http://www.stardestroyer.net/Nemesis/Pictorial-1.html

I agree with all of that and then some.
Some of the stupid plot points summary:
- Poor Romulan senate security
- Remans
- Positronic signature
- Poor federation computer security
- Poor federation personnel security
- Overly evil for no reason villain
- Contrived fight scenes

Can it be fixed? I've got my own ideas, but why should I have all the fun? So for starters, I'll just suggest one thing and hopefully get some participation.

---Plot point to be removed--- Remove the Remans. As far back as I can remember, the Romulans have never taken a major role in any of the Trek films. Considering they are one of the "big three" of Star Trek races I think having them share the spotlight with the Remans is a bad idea.

---The Replacement Plot Point --- The Romulan military pulls a coup following the dominion war, putting Schinzon in power. This is done in the standard fashion, rather the Military creates a crisis, calls the existing senate corrupt, and seizes power. No need for a contrived "turn to stone" scene in the Romulan senate.

[TOSDOC]

I was contemplating the whole state of affairs of the TNG movies again one or two weeks ago while SyFy was running them, and a thought sprung to mind. Notice how the (EDIT: SECOND) top grossing Star Trek movie (Star Trek IV) did NOT have any actual shooting in it?

It was a great family adventure, and had some definite thrills, chases, and suspense. It did not, however, have anyone shooting any phasers or photons at anyone else. I think the only time a weapon is actually fired is when Kirk slags the lock in the OR. I don't remember anyone dying, either.

Now I like space battles, and Star Trek II is my favorite of the lot. But it's been done, and if I was going to fix Nemesis, I'd aim for a story like IV, one I think Star Trek has been steering steadily away from since Voyage Home. It would be nice to see the TNG cast in that kind of adventure like they did in the series occasionally, and I hope they engage the new Star Trek cast in a similar story as well.

[Uraniun235]

No, I don't think Nemesis is fixable. Even if you were to patch up the numerous plot holes and inconsistencies, it would still be a dumb movie.

[Batman]

You can't fix Nemesis. You can do a whole new movie keeping a few of the plot elements and call it Nemesis, but it would bear little resemblance to the original.

[Molyneux]

Shinzon was a great idea, but making him turn evil when a quick word to Picard would have rendered the whole "genetic disease" thing completely moot was one of the worst turns of writing I've seen in years. I thought that there was some real chemistry between Picard and his clone, and I'd like to see that kept.

[DaveJB]

You could probably bring Nemesis up from "total trainwreck" to being "just barely average" if you restored the character moments and the stuff about Shinzon's motives and backstory that got edited out prior to release. The real problem, though, is how underdeveloped the overall story was. They really needed an extra writer to come in and rewrite the script, but Berman seems to have been completely blind as to the flaws in what Logan handed him.

[FaxModem1]

Have Sela in it, if you really want to do a TNG Wrath of Khan, bring someone who is a recurring enemy of the TNG crew.

Lore too, instead of B4, have him being the loyal minion of Sela that she took from wherever Data left him. And we could have them both trying to separately manipulate Shinzon to their own purposes.

[Stofsk]

Sela is too incompetent to be a credible threat.

Also Lore was killed by Data, so no dice there.

The most memorable villain in TNG ever was Locutus, who is also 'dead', and Q, and Q was more like a prankster god than a malicious god.

i mean holy shit how about we fix nemesis by bringing back DAIMON BOK *I'm a smarmy asshole*

[Gil Hamilton]

Sela at least meant they could have finished the Unification story.

She makes lot of sense.

1) She has previously established beef with Picard and Data, having been repeatedly foiled by both.
2) You can introduce the Remans the same way with her; after she failed the last time, the Romulan government threw her in the clink as punishment where she forms an alliance with the crazy bat dudes. This also gives her legitimate beef with the Romulan government to.
3) She could conceivably still have friends and allies in the Senate and military apparatus of the Romulan empire, which gives her more means to make off with the Romulan Super Ship and more of a reason to steal it than Shinzon.

You could say she was incompetant, but has there been a really competant TNG villain, like, ever?

[Stofsk]

Yeah, Lore. Q. Locutus/The Borg.

There was also that Romulan Admiral guy played by General Veers who completely outplayed Picard at chess. Not a single shot was fired but the Romulans won the day. He would be way better than Sela for crying out loud.

[Gil Hamilton]

I think that you can't remember his name is an indication he probably wouldn't be a good fit as the villain for a movie. They probably should have had Lore though, instead of another random Soong-bot, I'll grant you. However, they need more than that.

[Stofsk]

I think that you can't remember his name is an indication he probably wouldn't be a good fit as the villain for a movie.

I didn't say he would be good for a movie, I said he would be better than Sela.

They probably should have had Lore though, instead of another random Soong-bot, I'll grant you. However, they need more than that.

Yeah, but he was killed off at the end of 'Descent'.

I am sorta with you in wanting a conclusion to 'Unification', but I just don't particularly care for Sela. You don't need her to tell a conclusion to that story. What you need is Leonard Nimoy.

Instead of trying to emulate 'Wrath of Khan' which only worked because Ricardo Montalban was awesome, and TNG never had anyone comparable, they should have tried instead to emulate 'Undiscovered Country'. Chang wasn't a recurring villain but he was memorable. But with Berman and Braga in charge, anything they made was doomed to failure.

[Eframepilot]

Yeah, Lore. Q. Locutus/The Borg.

There was also that Romulan Admiral guy played by General Veers who completely outplayed Picard at chess. Not a single shot was fired but the Romulans won the day. He would be way better than Sela for crying out loud.

General Veers? Are you thinking of Ambassador G'Kar, i.e. Admiral Tomalak?

[Molyneux]

I am sorta with you in wanting a conclusion to 'Unification', but I just don't particularly care for Sela. You don't need her to tell a conclusion to that story. What you need is Leonard Nimoy.

On that note - though this only could ever work in retrospect - Nemesis could have been set up as the intro to the new Star Trek timeline. Secret Romulan weapons research goes wrong, blows up their star, and then the race is on to try and prevent Khitomer from happening all over again...

[Skylon]

Sela is too incompetent to be a credible threat.

I always thought the part of "Romulan chick who switches sides during the Space Battle" should have been filled by Sela instead of a new character.

It was the last TNG movie, bringing Denise Crosby in would have been nice. Also it would make alternate Yar's death mean something...somehow.

On an aside, I hated the concept of the Sela character, because you had alternate universe Yar go back on the Ent-C to die a meaningful death...instead we find she got captured, knocked up, then killed while trying to escape because her kid cries. Yeah, that's much better than being killed by a tar monster.

[Serafina]

Split Shinzon into two characters.

First, have the whole "take over Romulus"-schtick, but done by a Romulan general or something. This gives us a credible reason for the whole "attack on earth".
Second, keep the "Picard clone", but make him a supporting character. Preferably by character development: say he is an aide to the evil general and he is "accustomed to the romulan ways", so he doesn't think Picard would just help him like that with the disease. Make Picards just offer him the treatment even when he has him at his mercy (as a prisoner back on Romulus after investigating the coup or somesuch) and therefore become an ally.

Now granted, the first character is a bit bland, so you should add some clever, well-executed villany to him or the like to make him a credible threat.


Now this keeps the general storyline (coup, giant ship, picard clone) and the characters (picard clone), but it gives us chances at character development and it removes all the sillyness from the original plot.

[Molyneux]

Split Shinzon into two characters.

First, have the whole "take over Romulus"-schtick, but done by a Romulan general or something. This gives us a credible reason for the whole "attack on earth".
Second, keep the "Picard clone", but make him a supporting character. Preferably by character development: say he is an aide to the evil general and he is "accustomed to the romulan ways", so he doesn't think Picard would just help him like that with the disease. Make Picards just offer him the treatment even when he has him at his mercy (as a prisoner back on Romulus after investigating the coup or somesuch) and therefore become an ally.

Now granted, the first character is a bit bland, so you should add some clever, well-executed villany to him or the like to make him a credible threat.


Now this keeps the general storyline (coup, giant ship, picard clone) and the characters (picard clone), but it gives us chances at character development and it removes all the sillyness from the original plot.

I think that that could be a formula for a good movie - certainly better than what we got.
Also, call me sentimental, but I think it would be nice to, in the last Next Generation bit, give Picard some kind of family back. He lost his brother, he doesn't expect to ever settle down and have kids - so a younger clone would be a great way to give him something to focus on. Someone to carry on the Picard name.

[Serafina]

Well, the chemistry between Picard and his clone would certainly be greater if the clone was more than just "rar i will kill you for some reason". I honestly did not know what the point of Shinzon being a clone of Picard was, other than some early, unimportant plot and a failed attempt at making him more threatening.


I would like to see Shinzon MKII being raised as an opposite to Picard - a ruthless person, yet equally smart an charismatic. He could invent the Medusa-weapon we saw, he could rally support for the Evil General with his charisma, he could lead the attack on the Senate. He definetly SHOULD fight Picard in a ship-on-ship battle.
But the important point would be to let Picard WIN not by outsmarting him alone - he does so by using his crew. And then he doesn't kill his enemy, he WINS (some more) by showing him the error of his ways via his compassion and humanity - which is an essential part of the Federation, if not Picard.
That would be a good character portrait for Picard, and it would give a lot of purpose to the clone. If done right, it could also give the clone a lot of charcter development - witness how Picards takes risk to help Romulans for the sake of humanitarian aid, how his genuine friendships instead of brutal charisma towards his crew gives him an edge, how he is willing to help his greatest enemy when he has no need to do so.

That way, Picard could truly pass on his hertiage and ideals, especially if the clone is younger.


I also think the takeover of Romulus should be a more important plot point.
Have Picard go there on a normal peace mission or somesuch - ordered by the Evil General in order to take out the Federations most valuable captain and ship. Picard and some crewmates get stuck on the planet during a surprise attack and have to figure out what's going on and unravel the villains plot - who outmaneuvers him on every step. Meanwhile, the Enterprise is chased trough the system by Shinzon. Due to some clever tricks (tough not too much technobabble please) and risks, they manage to pick up Picard - something Shinzons crew would have never done for him! Now Picard can take command and save his ship, taking his enemy prisoner.
However, the Evil General has succeeded - he has taken over Romulus. He launches his supership, and the Enterprise must pursue them. After a while, they are taken out of action (tough not too heavily damaged) and the Supership rushes on towards Earth (or Vulcan for a change? it makes more sense for Romulans to do that).
The ship stranded, Picard has time to forge a brittle trust with his clone. The clone can observe Picards actions, motivations and interaction with the crew - slowly he is changing his character.
After the Enterprise is repaired, it manages to catch the Supership just short of Vulcan - already powering up it's weapon (makes more sense when they use it on a planet than on a ship). During the desperate engagementm Shinzon steps up and saves the day via explosing some weak point or somesuch (technobabble, but hey, we've got to have some).
Afterwards, Shinzon is put on trial by the Federation but saved by a valiant defense by Picard. They hug and call each other brother (or something).


Of course there are still a lot of ways to screw this up, via bad dialogue, visuals, acting and whatnot.
But it has character development, character focus, a (hopefully) more interesting villain, another villain who get's turned, less plotpoints, shows off the Romulans motivations and nature and hails the Federations ethical supremacy.

[Stofsk]

Yeah, Lore. Q. Locutus/The Borg.

There was also that Romulan Admiral guy played by General Veers who completely outplayed Picard at chess. Not a single shot was fired but the Romulans won the day. He would be way better than Sela for crying out loud.

General Veers? Are you thinking of Ambassador G'Kar, i.e. Admiral Tomalak?

I was actually thinking of the Admiral in 'Data's Day', but that was played by a different actor. He just bore a superficial resemblance to General Veers. I also half-remembered that a member of ESB guest-starred in TNG, but it turned out to be Clive Revill and not Julian Glover.

whoops

Sela is too incompetent to be a credible threat.

I always thought the part of "Romulan chick who switches sides during the Space Battle" should have been filled by Sela instead of a new character.

It was the last TNG movie, bringing Denise Crosby in would have been nice. Also it would make alternate Yar's death mean something...somehow.

On an aside, I hated the concept of the Sela character, because you had alternate universe Yar go back on the Ent-C to die a meaningful death...instead we find she got captured, knocked up, then killed while trying to escape because her kid cries. Yeah, that's much better than being killed by a tar monster.

I like the concept, I think a lot of fans do, but unfortunately the writers on TNG forgot a pretty basic storytelling truisim - if you constantly show a villain getting pwned, then that villain ceases being a credible threat. Every appearance she had she gets thwarted by the Enterprise - mainly Data - and her plans never work. There were three we knew about, and they all failed.

She comes from a culture which practices infanticide on disabled children and punishes people severely for infractions (my point here is the Romulans are ruthless and not very forgiving) - why does anyone assume she's still alive and breathing after having three setbacks within about six months? It was probably less time than that, but you get the picture. At the very least I cannot see her being kept in a position of authority anywhere in the Romulan Empire. It would have been nice if one of her plots had actually succeeded, hell even Dukat succeeded more often than he failed in DS9. Blame the writers.

And while it does suck that Yar was killed off again, I thought it underscored the tragedy even more. But there is no way it's worse than how the original Yar died at the hands of the tar monster. That was just sheer bullshit.

[Darth Tedious]

After a while, they are taken out of action (tough not too heavily damaged) and the Supership rushes on towards Earth (or Vulcan for a change? it makes more sense for Romulans to do that).

The Romulans attempting to destroy Vulcan rather than Earth would not only make more sense, but would be a far better setup to lead into the reboot movie.

And while it does suck that Yar was killed off again, I thought it underscored the tragedy even more. But there is no way it's worse than how the original Yar died at the hands of the tar monster. That was just sheer bullshit.

I thought it was great that by saving Yar, they actually condemned her to a worse fate. Classic tragedy. And I never liked her much anyway.

[Patrick Degan]

This has to be about the third or fourth thread along these lines, but what the hell. A few ideas of mine from one of those threads several years back:

1. Drop the entire Data/B4 plot thread. For all the amount of screen time and script material which was actually devoted to Data's retarded older brother, the B4 plot thread was a waste of celluloid, and it is painfully obvious that B4 was a McGuffin existing for the sole purpose of providing an "out" for Data's death and a very clumsy and obvious one at that. By contrast, you did not necessarily have a similar tipoff with the transfer of Spock's katra to McCoy in TWOK.

2. The entire EvilClone™ plot thread could be retained, but instead of the slave mine backstory, the Remans could have been likened to the Chechens; a seperatist population which has been attempting to split their world away from the Romulan Star Empire for more than a century or so. The tension between the two worlds would have explained the tendency of the Romulans to go isolationist every few decades, whenever they have to put down a particularly severe revolt on the world immediately next to the Imperial seat. With Picard's economy-pack twin Skippy being a cast-off when his usefulness was exhausted, sentenced to the slave-mines, he naturally ended up allying with the Remans, even identifying with their cause.

3. To truly underscore the threat of EvilClone™ Skippy's übermicrowave, have him actually using the weapon against Romulus itself, annihilating the entire planetary population (depicted in full grisly detail, naturally). Just as with the destruction of Alderaan in Star Wars, the audience would have seen the true dimensions of the threat Skippy intends to bring to Earth and makes the effort of the Enterprise to stop him all the more immediate. It also opens the scripting door to have the Romulan fleet hunting Skippy for revenge and thus presents a more logical motivation for their allying with Picard and provides a more spectacular space battle. Finally, with the Romulan homeworld depopulated, the surviving Romulan command structure has a reason to seek peace with the Federation and assistance to rebuild their society in the wake of the disaster.

4. Instead of the needless and exploitative psychic rape plot device with Deanna Troi, have the Enterprise actually employing passive sensors to pick up traces of the Scimitar's mass and heat output, expressed easily enough as the use of passive "motion sensors" (ala "Balance Of Terror"). It's pathetic that this rather basic and effective idea evidently never occurred even for a second to the writers of this mess of a movie.

5. The Enterprise rams the Scimitar and actually destroys a key componnent of the übermicrowave located at the prow, which puts the weapon out of commission. Picard also leads armed boarding parties to take the ship and destroy the doomsday weapon.

6. With his weapon wrecked, his ship crippled, and his plans effectively destroyed, Skippy puts the übermicrowave's oscillator core on self-destruct, intending to take the Enterprise down with him, so the fight becomes one of personal survival for the crew. We also have Skippy injuring Picard so that he can't escape and will die with him right on the bridge. Here is where we have Data's supreme act of self-sacrifice, in which he arrives and uses the emergency transport device to save his captain as the Enterprise is withdrawing.

7. To symbolise the advent of peace, the crippled Enterprise is brought back to Earth by the Romulan flagship. Commander Donatra contacts the Federation Council and delivers the offer of a genuine déténte from the new Romulan leadership.

8. Lose the stardate narratives. These made the movie too much like a glorified television episode.

9. Finally, cast Peter Woodward instead of Tom Hardy. Woodward far more resembles and sounds like a young Patrick Stewart than Hardy could ever hope to and possesses a much stronger stage presence.

Or, as an alternative, if you also want to tie the movie to a classic literary theme, let's say that Skippy has developed his own warped ideas of bringing peace to the galaxy and decided that the one way to ensure this would be to eliminate the principal warmaking worlds: Earth, Romulus, Q'onos and Cardassia Prime. This makes Skippy into Capt. Nemo taken to his ultimate logical extreme. It also makes his motivations into a twisted quest for good as he sees it and renders his thinking impenetrable to any logical argument against it. Which makes him even more dangerous and yet oddly sympathetic on some levels.

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

I think using Shinzon as some world-destroying supervillain is wasting the potential of the character. If you want something like it would be better to assign it to "Random Romulan General number #17281". Maybe after taking over the Romulan Senate he uncovers evidence that proves the head of the Tal Shiar was a Federation mole. (see "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges") The new Romulan regime shits a brick at the thought that the Federation are whipping them at their own game and decide to deal with them the old-fashioned way. They rope Shinzon and a Reman crew into performing the act, perhaps the coup plotters are wary of trusting an unpurged Romulan navy with the task and struck a deal with Shinzon/the Remans to give them a measure of independence after a successful coup in return for their support. That would be your "big battles and explosions" A-story there. The Enterprise is sent to investigate a general plea for assistance from the Romulan Senate, but by the time they arrive they're already too late and the military have overthrown the government. Picard meets up with Shinzon and it all goes from there...

But I think any B-story needs to be a lot more personal to Picard/Shinzon to use his potential fully. How about something like this? Following the Dominion War Picard is disillusioned with a Federation that he sees as increasingly militarised and less concerned with exploration and peaceful co-existence. He joined the Federation to be an explorer and a peacekeeper but has spent more of his years in uniform fighting Cardassians, Klingons, Borg or the Dominion than he has spent seeking new life and civilisations. At Riker and Troi's wedding he confides in Riker that he will retire, pass on command of the Enterprise to him and return to Earth to cultivate a vineyard, write his memoirs and die peacefully. He can see the changes that are taking place in the Federation and has neither the youth nor the strength anymore to change with them or fight them. But before that he's called out to Romulus for one last mission, where he meets Shinzon as described previously. He sees a chance to redeem Shinzon and salve his own wounded conscience, even if his duty is to destroy him and his ship before he reaches Earth.

That would be my basic outline anyway. Now I think about it I'm rather tempted to dabble in some fanfic now.

[Iroscato]

I think using Shinzon as some world-destroying supervillain is wasting the potential of the character. If you want something like it would be better to assign it to "Random Romulan General number #17281". Maybe after taking over the Romulan Senate he uncovers evidence that proves the head of the Tal Shiar was a Federation mole. (see "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges") The new Romulan regime shits a brick at the thought that the Federation are whipping them at their own game and decide to deal with them the old-fashioned way. They rope Shinzon and a Reman crew into performing the act, perhaps the coup plotters are wary of trusting an unpurged Romulan navy with the task and struck a deal with Shinzon/the Remans to give them a measure of independence after a successful coup in return for their support. That would be your "big battles and explosions" A-story there. The Enterprise is sent to investigate a general plea for assistance from the Romulan Senate, but by the time they arrive they're already too late and the military have overthrown the government. Picard meets up with Shinzon and it all goes from there...

But I think any B-story needs to be a lot more personal to Picard/Shinzon to use his potential fully. How about something like this? Following the Dominion War Picard is disillusioned with a Federation that he sees as increasingly militarised and less concerned with exploration and peaceful co-existence. He joined the Federation to be an explorer and a peacekeeper but has spent more of his years in uniform fighting Cardassians, Klingons, Borg or the Dominion than he has spent seeking new life and civilisations. At Riker and Troi's wedding he confides in Riker that he will retire, pass on command of the Enterprise to him and return to Earth to cultivate a vineyard, write his memoirs and die peacefully. He can see the changes that are taking place in the Federation and has neither the youth nor the strength anymore to change with them or fight them. But before that he's called out to Romulus for one last mission, where he meets Shinzon as described previously. He sees a chance to redeem Shinzon and salve his own wounded conscience, even if his duty is to destroy him and his ship before he reaches Earth.

That would be my basic outline anyway. Now I think about it I'm rather tempted to dabble in some fanfic now.

That's actually pretty damn good, it fits in with the continuity better than the broken abomination against all good things that Nemesis was.
In my opinion, if we kept the basic storyline, Nemesis would still be awful. It's such a contrived, stupid plot it would take an absolute cinematic genius to wring any quality in it. In a way, I'm glad it almost killed Trek. It gave the franchise a good ol' fashioned kick up the arse, resulting in the excellent 2009 film.

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

Following on from my previous post I decided to take the plunge and start my own Nemesis rewrite over in the User Fiction forum. Check it out.

**end shameless plug**