Jellico vs Maxwell

[Eternal_Freedom]

As an extra bit of info, just because I have it to hand, Kirk and Spock state that Khan may have changed the Reliant's prefix code.

Logically, that means you can do it from aboard ship, presumably with Captain's access codes which Khan had from brainfucking Captain Tyrell.

[Gil Hamilton]

It actually makes sense if the codes transmitted aren't the real code - the algorithm is. Suppose it changes frequently, but the changes aren't shared with everyone. How would someone know the new code? If they know the algorithm, they can just generate the new one.

It's not enough. You need an encryption key to map a code into something meaningful, because the key determines the output of the algorithm. So knowing the algorithm is explicitly not enough, UNLESS the system is really poorly designed. Not even the person who designed the system can decrypt something without a key except by brute force, which in many schemes requires vast amounts of computing power and the life time of the universe.

That Ensign Ro can exploit the system by merely knowing the generating algorithm means the system is really poorly designed.

Picard saved Cardassian lives and prevented war.

I suppose you'll tell me what negative consequences can be attributed to Picard giving Macet those codes.

Because he gave sensitive military information about the technical workings of their fleet to a hostile foriegn power. In real life, they EXECUTE people for that. Thanks to Picard, the Cardassians could track Federation starships and also hack the Phoenix' computer, which in the event of a conflict removes a SIGNIFICANT advantage of Starfleet over the Cardassian navy.

It is one thing for Picard to intercede and stop the Phoenix from blowing up Cardassian shipping. It's another thing entirely to sell out your military to do so. And remember, the Cardassians went to war with the Federation again eventually anyway (hence my original comment in this thread)! There were numerous times in TNG where the Cardassians looked like they were going to launch an attack regardless. These are not people you give technical information on your military apparatus to! Picard basically committed espionage for the Cardassians benefit there. The Cardassians went to war better equipped to fight the Federation thanks to Picard.

And suppose the Cardassians didn't try to just blow up the Phoenix but used the sensitive information Picard handed them to capture the Phoenix instead. Even if you ignore that the Cardassians would have full access to Federation military hardware, you know damn well what the Cardassians do when they capture something. Remember the pilot of DS9, how Kira and O'Brien both dropped a load in their pants at the notion of Gul Dukat re-occupying the station based on their previous experience with Cardassian occupations? They are a bunch of raping, murdering thugs and Picard would have been responsible had that happened to the crew of the Phoenix, in addition to the damage that would have been caused to his nation by giving the Cardassians direct access Federation military hardware and secrets.

So yeah, Picard was absolutely 100% wrong there. Now you should concede the point and back off.

[Gil Hamilton]

Were that true, buddy, you'd be addressing my post with an argument than crying like a whiny bitch. Are you done, or do you want to blubber some more rather than making a point?

[Stofsk]

This argument is stupid. Picard was ordered by an Admiral to stop Maxwell at any cost*. And it's not like Picard was tripping over himself to hand Macet the prefix codes. He did so very reluctantly, and after he had repeatedly hailed the Phoenix when it was bearing down on a Cardassian supply ship. The Phoenix ignored him completely. As it stands, the Cardassian supply ship and a defending warship were still killed by Maxwell. That's an act of war which Picard was ordered to prevent at any cost. Frankly it's a fucking miracle that the Cardassians didn't just resume the war, and they may very well not have due to Picard's willingness to cooperate with Macet.

* EDIT Also the Admiral told Picard the Federation wasn't in a position to resume hostilities, so not only was Picard given his orders he was also told what the stakes were.

[Skylon]

To bring this back on track a bit, when I suggested that by the time of the Dominion War Maxwell may see himself as vindicated for his actions, I was referring to specifically the Cardassians re-arming, and how the Federation couldn't trust them.

I wasn't expecting a fucking argument about Federation Computer security. As Stofsk points out, Picard was within the bounds of his orders. And indeed, there is nothing to suggest the Cardassians gained any great tactical advantage from the data Picard shared in "The Wounded".

[Gil Hamilton]

Dude, the rest of your argument is transparently bullshit. You're in no position to be an arrogant ass.

I can't believe I have to explain this.

The swan song of someone who doesn't have an argument, but doesn't want to admit he's wrong. If the argument was so transparent, you could easily outargue it. Instead, you are flinging shit like a rhesus monkey. I'm starting to think you are trolling this thread, in fact.

This is called "begging the question".

You don't know what "begging the question" means, do you? Review Logic 101 and come back. 0/1

The password analogy addresses this.

In other words, you have no argument and are too much of a pussy to just admit it. Further, look up what "analogy" means, and it doesn't mean cry like a bitch. 0/2

There's no evidence whatsoever for this.

Before the incident, the Cardassians had no means whatsoever of tracking Federation, hence why the Phoenix was so dangerous. After the incident, Picard gave them the ability to track Federation fleet movements. If you can't see why this removes a signficant advantage of the Federation in a conflict, even if it only allowed the Cardassians to map the CURRENT positions and movements of the Federation along their border, you are too stupid to breathe. Now you provide evidence that this was ever repaired or shut up. 0/3

The Enterprise wasn't far behind. There'd be no hiding that action - it wouldn't end well.

No, it wouldn't... for the crew of the Phoenix. The Federation was nearby when the Cardassians were looking like they were going to retake DS9 too (the point was to stall them long enough for the Enterprise to get back), but even letting the Cardassians aboard for even a short time would have been disasterous for the inhabitants. That's the fate that would have befell the crew of the Phoenix and it would have been Picard's fault. Incidentally, in threads past, people have heaped all the blame on Maxwell and his command staff. What do you tell all the people the Cardassians would have raped, beaten, and murdered before the Enterprise could get there? 0/4

This argument is stupid. Picard was ordered by an Admiral to stop Maxwell at any cost*. And it's not like Picard was tripping over himself to hand Macet the prefix codes. He did so very reluctantly, and after he had repeatedly hailed the Phoenix when it was bearing down on a Cardassian supply ship. The Phoenix ignored him completely. As it stands, the Cardassian supply ship and a defending warship were still killed by Maxwell. That's an act of war which Picard was ordered to prevent at any cost. Frankly it's a fucking miracle that the Cardassians didn't just resume the war, and they may very well not have due to Picard's willingness to cooperate with Macet.

* EDIT Also the Admiral told Picard the Federation wasn't in a position to resume hostilities, so not only was Picard given his orders he was also told what the stakes were.

"At all costs" tends not to mean that you can freely give away state military secrets without approval. That just puts the bad guys in a better position when hostilities break out anyway. Here, "at all costs" likely means "even if you have to blow up the Phoenix", not "give the Cardassians the ability to track our entire fleet so that if war happens anyway, now the Cardassians can track our ships". Betrayal of military secrets to an explicitly hostile foriegn power is something they can and have executed people for, doubly since the whole reason the Phoenix crew mutinied was that they felt there was compelling evidence (which Picard admits in the end was correct) that the Cardassians were playing fast and loose with their end of the cease fire.

[Crazedwraith]

I seem to recall that at the beginning of the Dominion War the Federation were at a disadvantage. Their fleets got tracked down and smashed and the Dominion always seemed to know where everything was...

Because they had a honking great sensor array.

[Stofsk]

"At all costs" tends not to mean that you can freely give away state military secrets without approval.

'At any cost' means 'at any cost'. Not 'At any cost except for this or that', or 'You can do everything EXCEPT all the things I forgot to tell you you couldn't do.' This is so unbelievably stupid I don't see how you're still arguing this.

PS Admiral guy orders Picard to stop Maxwell 'at any cost' and you still claim he's acting without approval. This is patently false. Everything Picard does is covered by the orders he received at the start of the episode. Considering a week later in the next episode he's still Captain of the Enterprise and not in sing-sing on trial for treason also validates my and Adam's and everyone-who-isn't-you's position.

That just puts the bad guys in a better position when hostilities break out anyway. Here, "at all costs" likely means "even if you have to blow up the Phoenix", not "give the Cardassians the ability to track our entire fleet so that if war happens anyway, now the Cardassians can track our ships".

So 'at any cost' to you translates into 'well everything except for one or two'.

PS Picard considers conflict evitable. That's why he was willing to do what he did.

Betrayal of military secrets to an explicitly hostile foriegn power is something they can and have executed people for,

What? Are you talking about the Federation? Since they have no death penalty for anything in Picard's time, that's completely wrong.

doubly since the whole reason the Phoenix crew mutinied was that they felt there was compelling evidence (which Picard admits in the end was correct) that the Cardassians were playing fast and loose with their end of the cease fire.

Picard was fucking ordered to uphold the treaty and the peace at any cost. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. Also he had no idea how right or wrong Maxwell was at the time because the cunt failed to respond to his direct and repeated hails, which forced Picard's hand. As it stands Maxwell gave the Cardassians all the reason they could to go to war but the latter declined the invitation, ironically probably due to Maxwell having uncovered their shenanigans. As Picard tacitly warns Macet, there would be no going back had he investigated Maxwell's claims. But peace is better than war as far as he was concerned. The point is he knew, and he wanted to let the Cardassians know he knew, so as to stop them doing any more sneaky shit.

[Rommel123]

"At all costs" tends not to mean that you can freely give away state military secrets without approval.

No, that would be "At ll costs except...". At all costs means exactly that.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Begging the question (or petitio principii, "assuming the initial point") is a type of logical fallacy in which the proposition to be proven is assumed implicitly or explicitly in the premise.

You just copy-pasted that from wikipedia word for word.