The Defiant in The Way of the Warrior

[sc_owl]

Something that has bugged me for a while, and something I've not been able to find out... What was the Defiant doing when the Klingons attacked DS9 in The Way of the Warrior?

We see the ship dock at the station with the Klingon fleet waiting to attack, but then we don't see it any further. Even in a damaged state, it should have been brought out to help defend the station but we don't see or hear anything of it.

Out of universe I'm guessing it was down to budget that we don't see it during the final battle, but any idea what the in universe reason could be?

[FaxModem1]

Not enough crew to station both?

[The Romulan Republic]

Because it would have gotten slaughtered against that many Klingon ships? Better to keep it safely inside DS9's defences?

[Skylon]

I think your original post says it all dude, the Defiant took a pretty fair beating before arriving at DS9. In its damaged state it would have been probably suicidal to use it. The cloak was down, the ablative armor had failed...it in no way seems like a good idea to take it out again, before it was repaired.

[Lord MJ]

The thing the bothers me is that DS9 has external docks not internal docks like Spacedock. Meaning that it was completely vulnerable to be taken out in port by the Klingons.

[Stofsk]

Yeah but it was protected by the station's shields and the station itself has a more threatening arsenal, so the klingons would have to be mad to split their fire between two targets.

[PREDATOR490]

Why would the Klingons destroy a non-combatant ship that can be potentially captured ? Not to mention attacking a docked and helpless Defiant is hardly fitting for Klingon and their 'code' bullshit.

As for not using it, the ship got wrecked and would only be a liability in a fight like that. The Defiant is an Escort / Wolf Pack warship by design. She isnt built to take on those kind of odds which kinda shows from the fact she got her ass kicked.
Additionally, using the Defiant would only give the Klingons an ample target to legitmately blast the crap out of without remorse. Its harder to destroy a strategic location like Deep Space Nine which is a floating city not even owned BY the Federation.

Granted, Klingons rarely show much concern for politics / deep thinking but even Gowron should see destryoing DS9 would be a tactical and political nightmare. I would also expect the Defiant was being held in reserve just incase the Klingons decided to go keep fighting. Sisko was essentially banking on the Klingons backing down, if they hadnt it really would have been an all-out fight where you throw in the Defiant to either fight or flee.

[Stofsk]

It's a shame we never saw a Defiant wolfpack ever. Practically unforgivable.

[Alyeska]

It's a shame we never saw a Defiant wolfpack ever. Practically unforgivable.

One time we got to see three of them on screen at once. We also got to see two in combat once. Not quite the 5 ship wolfpack so imagined by the fans.

[Stofsk]

Better than nothing I suppose.

[JME2]

It's a shame we never saw a Defiant wolfpack ever. Practically unforgivable.

One time we got to see three of them on screen at once. We also got to see two in combat once. Not quite the 5 ship wolfpack so imagined by the fans.

Yeah, but it happened on VGR so I don't count it.

[sc_owl]

Why would the Klingons destroy a non-combatant ship that can be potentially captured ? Not to mention attacking a docked and helpless Defiant is hardly fitting for Klingon and their 'code' bullshit.

As for not using it, the ship got wrecked and would only be a liability in a fight like that. The Defiant is an Escort / Wolf Pack warship by design. She isnt built to take on those kind of odds which kinda shows from the fact she got her ass kicked.
Additionally, using the Defiant would only give the Klingons an ample target to legitmately blast the crap out of without remorse. Its harder to destroy a strategic location like Deep Space Nine which is a floating city not even owned BY the Federation.

Granted, Klingons rarely show much concern for politics / deep thinking but even Gowron should see destryoing DS9 would be a tactical and political nightmare. I would also expect the Defiant was being held in reserve just incase the Klingons decided to go keep fighting. Sisko was essentially banking on the Klingons backing down, if they hadnt it really would have been an all-out fight where you throw in the Defiant to either fight or flee.

To be honest I had not thought about it in terms of politics and such, but I think you make some good points there.

Also agree with the comments about not seeing a flight of Defiant class ships in action at once. Would have been cool to see a half-dozen of them taking down a Dominion Battleship...

[The Romulan Republic]

Or a group of them strafing the Borg Cube in First Contact.

[Batman]

Out of universe, that would have taken away from her being the Defiant. If there's enough of them for that and we get shown there are, she stops being special. Same reason the only other Galaxy class we ever saw in TNG blew up on short notice.

[sc_owl]

Out of universe, that would have taken away from her being the Defiant. If there's enough of them for that and we get shown there are, she stops being special. Same reason the only other Galaxy class we ever saw in TNG blew up on short notice.

Not too sure I agree that it would have taken away from the Defiant.

I would have liked for them to have gone a similar route to how Bab 5 handled the Whitestar.

Looking at how the Defiant chewed up Dominion fighters and Klingon BOPs I think it's a bit strange that Starfleet didn't start turning out hundreds of Defiant class ships in preperation for the Dominion war.

[Stofsk]

I would rather they didn't ape B5 anymore than what they (allegedly) did.

(*not accusing the DS9 writers of plagiarism, it's just one of those weird things where two shows done at the same time keep having similar ideas)

But half a dozen Defiants, that's something I can get behind.

[Uraniun235]

Out of universe, that would have taken away from her being the Defiant. If there's enough of them for that and we get shown there are, she stops being special. Same reason the only other Galaxy class we ever saw in TNG blew up on short notice.

We saw a fake version of Yamato in Where Silence Has Lease as well. Somehow they weren't afraid of doing sister ships in TOS; they were all over the place.


I dunno. I thought Defiant was too special anyway. It's so amazingly awesome that they have to detune the engine so it doesn't "shake the car ship apart". It has the +3 Ablative Armor that lets it take an almost unlimited beating (so long as there are fresh bodies for the fireworks factory bridge to maim). It's the only Federation starship with a cloaking device. It almost never gets visibly mauled in battle unlike other ships, except in First Contact when the movie producers had to be restrained from just blowing it up, and that time when it blew up because of the Breen Plot Gun.

Part of the problem might be that Defiant is a hero ship in a show originally built around there not being a hero ship. It might have worked better if Sisko had brought back a wolfpack of Defiants from the very beginning, he gets promoted to Captain and the rest are all commanded by Commanders, and boom: you still get the fast dodgy ships (and you can even have a couple blow up for extra shock and awe!!), you still get bigger punch away from the station, you still get Sisko taking on a bigger command and more responsibility, and it's even a more credible boost to station defense.

[Stofsk]

Uraniun's tirade aside , but the DS9 writers did have other Defiant-class ships sneak in several times.The mirrorverse people built a Defiant, there were two in the big fleet at the end of 'A Call to Arms', and there was the ship USS Valiant in the episode of the same name, and of course the Sao Paulo which had its name changed to Defiant.

That last one was such bullshit. I just wanted to see more.

Part of the problem might be that Defiant is a hero ship in a show originally built around there not being a hero ship. It might have worked better if Sisko had brought back a wolfpack of Defiants from the very beginning, he gets promoted to Captain and the rest are all commanded by Commanders, and boom: you still get the fast dodgy ships (and you can even have a couple blow up for extra shock and awe!!), you still get bigger punch away from the station, you still get Sisko taking on a bigger command and more responsibility, and it's even a more credible boost to station defense.

What they should have done from the beginning of season three onward was to have a starfleet taskforce stationed at DS9 full-time. They never did until half-way through season five I am pretty sure.

DS9 could be pretty schizo with it's writing. The entire Klingon war thing from season four to half of season five was a complete dead-end and the way in which they rejigged the show back on the track they intended was so transparently bullshit. ('Oooh Dukat makes a secret alliance with the Dominion, who then come in and kick the Klingon's ass, who then retreat... to DS9?? Wtf. Then Gowron has a convo with Sisko while fakeBashir is patching him up, and even fakeBashir says they should kiss and make up!') Your idea would be a lot cooler. Also given how easily and quickly the Mirrorverse built its own Defiant, there's really no excuse for Starfleet not to have a fleet of them, even if it's only a dozen or so.

[PREDATOR490]

Easiest way to handwave it:

They were being deployed elsewhere. Just like the other army of ship designs that appeared from start to finish. I.E Akiras, Norways, Steamrunners, Sabers, Soverigns... blah blah blah.

Additionally, the Defiant was meant to be a warship / Escort class by design to fight the Borg. Using the superior manuverability to avoid Borg retaliation, though powerful the Borg are rather slow on the uptake so agility is more favourable. Against the 'normal' fanfare of races the Federation faces their regular ships seem to perform effectively. Though I doubt its 'efficient' unless they gutted the Galaxies / Excelsiors / Mirandas and literally suited them up for pure warefare. In which, case they might be ok. The Lakota was able to go toe to toe with the Defiant after being 'buffed' up somehow so doing the same with the rest of the fleet might be possible and justify why they went with that rather than punch out armies of Defiants.


Really, the Defiant represents a whole different combat strategy from the one Starfleet employs.
Fast, agile and expendable seems to be the goal with the Defiant - If it gets assimilated it dosent have that many crew and the ship itself is pure combat. If it falls, the chances are its being hit so hard its a lost cause to capture. Which was kinda reflected in First Contact. The Borg didnt seem that interested in the Defiant and intrest they did show fucked her up badly to the point she was a flying wreck.

[Stofsk]

The Lakota received a refit so I haven't got a problem with bigger ships having more power or at least being able to stand toe-to-toe with a smaller ship like the Defiant. But the Defiant is a pretty effective combat ship for its size all the same. It isn't even 'expendable' really - it's amazingly resilient. Look at the Mirandas we see in get one-shotted (well they almost certainly sustained damage throughout the battle but still, one shot through the shields and it's all over). Meanwhile the Defiant can get pounded and still fight or retreat.

[sc_owl]

As soon as the Dominion threat was discovered Starfleet should have had a fleet at Bajor at all times. One thing I find rather strange is that in TDIC Eddington mentions Starfleet is sending 9 ships to reinforce the sector. I'm pretty sure someone says these are "substantial" reinforcements :S

I quite like the idea of bringing in a few Defiant class ships all at the same time at the start of season three - would have made much more sense, they could even have stated they were there to replace, or supplement, the Runabouts.

In a straight up fight I would argue that a Defiant would chew up an Excelsior class ship. The Lakota was upgraded and hit the Defiant a good five or six times before Worf decided to open fire on the Lakota, and even then the Lakota was "one good hit" away from being finished.

[Crazedwraith]

As soon as the Dominion threat was discovered Starfleet should have had a fleet at Bajor at all times. One thing I find rather strange is that in TDIC Eddington mentions Starfleet is sending 9 ships to reinforce the sector. I'm pretty sure someone says these are "substantial" reinforcements :S

In TNG and Early DS9 that was substantial reinforcements. The 40 ship fleet at Wolf 359 was an armada. Picard's blockade in Redemption was only 23 ships. Even in Way Of The Warrior, a mere 6 federation starships were enough to make Gowron re-think his attack on the station.

It only in season 6 do they sudden start throwing fleet numbers in the hundreds about.

As for not using it, the ship got wrecked and would only be a liability in a fight like that. The Defiant is an Escort / Wolf Pack warship by design. She isnt built to take on those kind of odds which kinda shows from the fact she got her ass kicked.

Say whut? Defiant got her ass kicked in WotW when she dropped her shields, stood quite still and let a klingon cruiser take a few free shots at her while she beamed Dukat off.

[Alyeska]

Say whut? Defiant got her ass kicked in WotW when she dropped her shields, stood quite still and let a klingon cruiser take a few free shots at her while she beamed Dukat off.

Incorrect. The Defiant was maneuvering in an attempt to throw off the aim of the Vorcha in addition to using a tractor beam to screw with its targeting.

[sc_owl]

In TNG and Early DS9 that was substantial reinforcements. The 40 ship fleet at Wolf 359 was an armada. Picard's blockade in Redemption was only 23 ships. Even in Way Of The Warrior, a mere 6 federation starships were enough to make Gowron re-think his attack on the station.

It only in season 6 do they sudden start throwing fleet numbers in the hundreds about.

The Klingon fleet in WOTW, that invaded Cardassia, was in the hundreds - according to what Sisko said anyways...

I don't think Gowron viewed those six ships as being able to defeat his fleet, but rather the idea of six fresh ships engaging a fleet that was already battle-damaged, with DS9's defences backing them up would have made any Klingon victory a very bloody and costly victory.

[Crazedwraith]

Say whut? Defiant got her ass kicked in WotW when she dropped her shields, stood quite still and let a klingon cruiser take a few free shots at her while she beamed Dukat off.

Incorrect. The Defiant was maneuvering in an attempt to throw off the aim of the Vorcha in addition to using a tractor beam to screw with its targeting.

Quite true. I exaggerated slightly. I thought they'd taken a few licks before employing that trick. Worf states the disruptors were at 50% effectiveness at this point.

Nevertheless the point I was trying to make still remains; the Defiant's heavy damage in the battle owed less to being outnumbered and more that she had to make herself much more vulnerable to attack while completing her mission

The Klingon fleet in WOTW, that invaded Cardassia, was in the hundreds - according to what Sisko said anyways...

I don't think Gowron viewed those six ships as being able to defeat his fleet, but rather the idea of six fresh ships engaging a fleet that was already battle-damaged, with DS9's defences backing them up would have made any Klingon victory a very bloody and costly victory.

Sisko says that to Bashir while justifying his use of the cloak to reach the rendezvous. It's less a strategic assessment and more than likely to be hyperbole. Certainly the force that attacks DS9 is no in the hundreds. And comprises of a large contingent of Birds Of Prey, so there's a lot less tonnage there than the numbers suggest.

But you're right Way Of The Warrior started the increase of fleet numbers that ended up in the thousands come Season 6.