Thoery never see UFP soldeirs used wide spread phaser kill

[JasonB]

There is no proof phasers can deploy a widebeam kill setting beyond an alien taking over Tuvok and threatening to hit them with a 'WIDE DISPERSAL' set to 'KILL'.

AR-558 noone knew how to use it ?
Uhm, except Sisko who used a similar setting to melt through a wall 2 feet away. - DS9 Rapture
Uhm, except Sisko who used a phaser rifle to sweep for Changelings using an 'expanding pulse wave' - DS9 The Advesary
Uhm, except Sisko who oversaw wide beam phaser sweeps - DS9 Way of the Warrior, Paradise Lost

You didnt notice that SISKO was at AR-558 during that episode ?
It would only take ONE Sisko to fire that setting at 'wide dispersal' set to 'Kill' to make a lot of Jem Hadar unhappy.

But... but... they could have used wide beam stun against the Jem Hadar !
Except stun settings can be ineffective against humans at the BEST of times let alone against aliens like the Jem Hadar.

If a character like Sisko who has been seen using this setting before DOSENT USE it in AR-558 it is far more reasonable to assume the setting cannot be used and that reason is NOT a lack of training. Afterall, Sisko clearly has the training to use the setting and the will to use it before.

Sisko: Wall blocking my way ? - Wide Beam vaporise
Sisko: Army of angry Jem Hadar charging down a chokepoint dead ahead ? - Hmm... if only I had a way of nuking them all at once... anyone know a setting on the phaser that can do it ? No ?... Fuck.

Alternatively:
Alien Tuvok - Ha, I can screw you all with a wide beam setting set to KILL. Now just clump together 3 feet away so I can zap you all at once if you fuck with me.
Janeway: Waaaait a miniute ! You cant use that setting, you need special Starfleet combat class to use that setting.
Alien TuvoK - ... Ummm no, I just push two buttons and I can do it
Janeway - The medical phaser has a wide beam kill setting... Why wasnt I taught that ?
Voyager Crew - *Fuck !*

Our heroes in all Star Trek form not using weapon maximum effectiveness just handicap themselves and people around them. Example this Star Trek DS9 Way of the warrior Sisko run to reach the rest UFP fleet and instead put many civilians harms way. Across then example of battle retake DS9 Sisko should cloak the Defiant and had UFP fleet keep Dominion occupation while did his own surprise attack DS9.

[Thanas]

JasonB, you have already been titled by Dalton. If you do not improve noticeably within a month, you will be banned.

Do not ignore this warning.

[PREDATOR490]

Our heroes in all Star Trek form not using weapon maximum effectiveness just handicap themselves and people around them.

Kinda missed the point. You want to propose using this setting uses advanced training and the battle on AR-558 was won by using it... except Sisko has been seen using it before thus he must have that training and didnt use it.
Now you turn around and admit the Feds handicap themselves.

Ummm... what was the point of this thread again since you seem to have the OBVIOUS answer to why the Feds dont use this setting ?

Example this Star Trek DS9 Way of the warrior Sisko run to reach the rest UFP fleet and instead put many civilians harms way.

How was running to DS9 a failure to use weapons at maximum effectiveness or somehow handicapping the Defiant ?
Maybe you missed the fact the Defiant got it's ass kicked and was being chased down by two Klingon ships and the Klingon fleet arrived at DS9 BEFORE they got there ?

Clearly you missed the strategic and political gamble Sisko was making by running to a BAJORAN station that has more firepower than any single Federation ship observed.

Across then example of battle retake DS9 Sisko should cloak the Defiant and had UFP fleet keep Dominion occupation while did his own surprise attack DS9.

DS9 is heavily armed and the Defiant is no match to take it on alone. Dukat and Sisko say as much themselves. DS9 had its defences up throughout the battle and it seems fairly sensible they would be at a battle-ready status given the Federation attempt to break through their lines. If the Defiant isnt seen on the battle lines it wouldnt take much forethought for Dukat to question WHERE the Defiant would be in such an effort to reach DS9.

Not only have you chosen stupid situations to question Fed competence over, you have failed to establish what the hell this has to do with beam settings on phaser.

If anything, Sisko could be one of the most competent officers in Starfleet who would be amoungst the first to use a wide beam setting in combat IF it was possible. Something which has STILL not been proven.

One piece of dialogue that indicates a Wide Dispersal set to kill
vs.
The entire observed uses of wide beam being restrained to
A) Rocks (TNG, Chain of Command, DS9 Rapture)
or
B) Stun (VOY:Cathexis, DS9 Way of the Warrior)

Four direct examples of a wide beam setting. Three done by a hand phaser and one by a lego rifle.

[JasonB]

Our heroes in all Star Trek form not using weapon maximum effectiveness just handicap themselves and people around them.

Kinda missed the point. You want to propose using this setting uses advanced training and the battle on AR-558 was won by using it... except Sisko has been seen using it before thus he must have that training and didnt use it.
Now you turn around and admit the Feds handicap themselves.

Ummm... what was the point of this thread again since you seem to have the OBVIOUS answer to why the Feds dont use this setting ?

Example this Star Trek DS9 Way of the warrior Sisko run to reach the rest UFP fleet and instead put many civilians harms way.

How was running to DS9 a failure to use weapons at maximum effectiveness or somehow handicapping the Defiant ?
Maybe you missed the fact the Defiant got it's ass kicked and was being chased down by two Klingon ships and the Klingon fleet arrived at DS9 BEFORE they got there ?

Clearly you missed the strategic and political gamble Sisko was making by running to a BAJORAN station that has more firepower than any single Federation ship observed.

Across then example of battle retake DS9 Sisko should cloak the Defiant and had UFP fleet keep Dominion occupation while did his own surprise attack DS9.

DS9 is heavily armed and the Defiant is no match to take it on alone. Dukat and Sisko say as much themselves. DS9 had its defences up throughout the battle and it seems fairly sensible they would be at a battle-ready status given the Federation attempt to break through their lines. If the Defiant isnt seen on the battle lines it wouldnt take much forethought for Dukat to question WHERE the Defiant would be in such an effort to reach DS9.

Not only have you chosen stupid situations to question Fed competence over, you have failed to establish what the hell this has to do with beam settings on phaser.

If anything, Sisko could be one of the most competent officers in Starfleet who would be amoungst the first to use a wide beam setting in combat IF it was possible. Something which has STILL not been proven.

One piece of dialogue that indicates a Wide Dispersal set to kill
vs.
The entire observed uses of wide beam being restrained to
A) Rocks (TNG, Chain of Command, DS9 Rapture)
or
B) Stun (VOY:Cathexis, DS9 Way of the Warrior)

Four direct examples of a wide beam setting. Three done by a hand phaser and one by a lego rifle.

Also area was extremely rocky it is very possible they would have been risk getting bury alive if they used wide spread having Rockey fall down on everyone both UFP troops and Jem Harder.

[Batman]

How would the Feds risk getting buried by rock they weren't even shooting at that's dozens of meters away from them?

[PREDATOR490]

Wide angle both vaporise and stun have had limited effect on the surrounding environment. Christ, even when phasers are being fired normally they can cause limited damage to the environment so somehow a wide beam is going to break this trend ?

Even if one assumes this to be true... it becomes blatantly fucking obvious why they would NEVER use this setting.
The environmental and accidentaly damage to the surrounding vauluables is extremely high. I.E Consoles, bulkheads, windows preventing you from getting sucked into space etc.

However, that assumption is also blatantly false because we have never seen a wide beam kill. We have seen wide beam vaporise on rocks... now if you want to push Alien Tuvok meant he had actually set the phaser to THAT setting and said 'KILL' to get the point across then fair enough.
Unfortuantly none of those 'wide beam' vaporise attacks have been anywhere near the capability of the stun sweep used by Tuvok.

I just watched Chain of Command and saw no wide beam phaser beam being used. Worf just uses a regular beam to vaporise the wall which leaves Rapture as the only example of a wide beam setting being used at 3 feet to vaporise a thin wall. Seems rather obvious wide beam attacks are only effective at close ranges which makes them room brooms at best.
Thus, the reason you dont see them being used is because the range sucks and the benefit vs. power wasted is horrific.

[JasonB]

Wide angle both vaporise and stun have had limited effect on the surrounding environment. Christ, even when phasers are being fired normally they can cause limited damage to the environment so somehow a wide beam is going to break this trend ?

Even if one assumes this to be true... it becomes blatantly fucking obvious why they would NEVER use this setting.
The environmental and accidentaly damage to the surrounding vauluables is extremely high. I.E Consoles, bulkheads, windows preventing you from getting sucked into space etc.

However, that assumption is also blatantly false because we have never seen a wide beam kill. We have seen wide beam vaporise on rocks... now if you want to push Alien Tuvok meant he had actually set the phaser to THAT setting and said 'KILL' to get the point across then fair enough.
Unfortuantly none of those 'wide beam' vaporise attacks have been anywhere near the capability of the stun sweep used by Tuvok.

I just watched Chain of Command and saw no wide beam phaser beam being used. Worf just uses a regular beam to vaporise the wall which leaves Rapture as the only example of a wide beam setting being used at 3 feet to vaporise a thin wall. Seems rather obvious wide beam attacks are only effective at close ranges which makes them room brooms at best.
Thus, the reason you dont see them being used is because the range sucks and the benefit vs. power wasted is horrific.

Jake Sisko risks bring down the cave during that fire fight at Ajilon Prime in that medical base when he fire at the roof of the cave. We saw phaser rifle fire and disrupter fire hitting wall of that cave left and right and nothing happen. For all we known might will be material kill both sides. Also we never have seen Sisko set phaser rifle just to kill on wide spread before. I will take word that Sisko can vaporize rock on wide spread however take more power to vaporize rocks then take put set just enough power kill someone and possible more dangers to set plane kill then vaporize on wide spread.

[PREDATOR490]

Your still missing the fucking point moron.

You have FAILED to PROVIDE any EVIDENCE that WIDESPREAD KILL exists or is POSSIBLE.

You want a theory why UFP soldiers never used something that has never been shown to exist. Rather than accept the most logicaly and straight forward answer of it NOT being possible you would rather field a load of horseshit explanations like required 'specialist training' to use or it is more dangerous to put it on kill than vaporise.
Monumentally stupid to try and rationalise the setting not being used when there is no evidence that setting is possible or exists but apparantly this concept is beyond you.

[Ted C]

Even when it appears that a wide-beam "kill" setting (WBK) would be most useful -- holding off large numbers of enemies who have to approach through a choke point -- Federation troops don't use it. The obvious conclusion is that the WBK setting either doesn't exist or has every limited usefulness.

JasonB: You're just trying to invent excuses for the Fed troops not using a WBK setting. You are pre-supposing that it actually has high combat usefulness, but you have not produced any evidence to support that supposition. The evidence indicates that this setting, if it exists, has very limited range or high power requirements or both, making it useful only in very rare circumstances. The only way to make your case is to produce contradictory evidence, not excuses.

[Alyeska]

JasonB, either post factual evidence to back up your claim or concede the issue. If you continue on this path, the thread will be HOSed.

[Ted C]

I can think of a situation where a wide-beam stun setting would be useful with the kind of ranges we've seen: crowd control. A small number of security personnel with wide-beam phasers would be able to pretty quickly put down a riot by just stunning everyone in range.

A wide-beam kill setting might be useful for troops involved in some kind of urban combat. If fighting room-to-room within a building, where the ranges will reliably be very short, it could be used to clear rooms pretty quickly.

In a combat situation at more than a few meters, though, wide-beam settings are obviously pretty useless.

[StarSword]

I seem to remember the only time we saw the room-clearing wide-beam used, in VOY: "Cathexis", that it basically sprayed nadions in every direction. (Been a while since I saw the episode, so feel free to let me know if I have my facts wrong.) I think that in addition to stunning everyone else on the bridge, the wielder (Tuvok?) was stunned too.

Based on this, if the room-clearing dispersal setting can be combined with a "kill" power setting, it would seem to me that concerns for friendly fire would preclude the use of wide-beam kill among Federation servicemembers. (Suicidal fanatics like the Jem'hadar might be a different story.)

[Batman]

I'm reasonably certain even the TNG Fed troops are sharp enough to not use the (so far completely hypothetical) WBK setting when there's a chance there's friendlies in the field of fire.
What's so hot about WBK anyway? It's moderately useless if there's any cover, likely has short range on top of that, almost inevitably must be a serious energy drain, and offers little the standard kill setting doesn't. What's the dwell time standard kill needs to, well, kill a target? We know they can use them on constant beam (even if we don't know for how long) so why not go firehose with the standard kill beam instead? (Which I think is something that was actually referred to in the TOS episode 'The Omega Glory')

[PREDATOR490]

Tuvok dosent get stunned when sprays the bridge so in theory the stun setting is demonstrated to be effective against unarmed, unprepared humans.
Stun settings have been shown to be ineffective across a variety of episodes against humans to aliens. Thus your wide beam setting could equally be ineffective because that setting must be distributed equally over the entire field.

That could simply be beyond the capabilities of the phaser to do. Sure, it might have the POWER but the thing might not be able to properly draw and distribute that setting properly which results in folks within optimal range (3 - 6 Feet) getting hit with the brunt of the blast while the folks outside that experience a spectrum of effects from daze to completely ineffective.

The actual scene where Tuvok sprays the bridge kinda demonstrates a lag in the beam. Folks closer to him drop rather quickly but the guys further back take longer to fall. Infact the dude at Harry's station kinda seems to be trying to dodge before he goes down. If the delay between firing and transmission is long enough for someone to see it coming and start dodging it will be highly ineffective in anything but open ground.