Chuck takes on the Dominion

[Coalition]

I'm wondering if one of the Cardassians could have looked at Weyoun and the Founder and said, "their gods are gods," similar to Ten Commandments Pharoah.

Follow that up with Dukat getting the Pah Wraith inside himself, then to the Orb, etc. But instead of closing the wormhole, it burns it open, so the opening looks like Sauron's eye, and allows some Dominion ships through at a time (not the massive fleet, since that has been destroyed). Combine that with side effects of the war in the wormhole for Starfleet morale problems, from the powers involved. This prevents Starfleet from maintaining an effective blockade, while the Jem'Hadar can go through quickly (and the survivors granted a merciful death while the replacement troops are bred).

Sisko then has to go find that other Orb to get reinforcements to the Wormhole, to put the 'balance' back.

At the end, the Prophets possess Sisko while the Wraiths possess Dukat, and they fight it out.

That last part might be a bit silly though.

[Skylon]

I'm wondering if one of the Cardassians could have looked at Weyoun and the Founder and said, "their gods are gods," similar to Ten Commandments Pharoah.

Follow that up with Dukat getting the Pah Wraith inside himself, then to the Orb, etc. But instead of closing the wormhole, it burns it open, so the opening looks like Sauron's eye, and allows some Dominion ships through at a time (not the massive fleet, since that has been destroyed). Combine that with side effects of the war in the wormhole for Starfleet morale problems, from the powers involved. This prevents Starfleet from maintaining an effective blockade, while the Jem'Hadar can go through quickly (and the survivors granted a merciful death while the replacement troops are bred).

Sisko then has to go find that other Orb to get reinforcements to the Wormhole, to put the 'balance' back.

At the end, the Prophets possess Sisko while the Wraiths possess Dukat, and they fight it out.

That last part might be a bit silly though.

To be fair that actually sounds better than what we got. The war IMHO took a very contrived approach from SoA on, where the Dominion was still managing to kick the shit out of the Federation and Klingons, in spite of it being isolated from its power base. A fact I lament except for the fact it gave us the very good "In the Pale Moonlight".

I like the idea of the UFP and Klingons' facing a more and more desperate Dominion for the rest of season 6 and on the verge of victory, then in season 7 Dukhat makes his pact with the pah wraiths Dukhat tears open the wormhole and out comes the Dominion...or at least present it as a threat of Dukhat trying to pull it off.

Again, it'd make more sense than the shit that happened with Dukhat and the Pah Wraiths in season 7.

[The Romulan Republic]

Is it really so hard to believe that the Dominion could still win? They still had a big fleet and control of a sizeable interstellar state (Cardassia). Even then, they weren't winning quickly again until the Breen joined them.

[Stofsk]

Uh yeah, it is. Because at the start of season six the Federation lost an entire fleet of around a hundred ships and that was clear cue from the writers to us that things had gotten a bit desperate. The SoA threat was a Dominion fleet that would vanquish the Federation and it was what, low thousands? Then fast forward to late season seven when the breen entered the picture - they pull a technobabble attack that leaves the Allied fleet completely defenceless, and then get wiped out. The klingons are the only ones who are immune and they have a fleet of 1,500 to hold off 30,000 jem'hadar, cardassian and breen vessels.

I'm sorry but that's just ludicrous. At that point that Dominion could have won simply by virtue of numbers. It's the writers going 'HO SHIT LETS TURN THIS WAR UP TO ELEVEN GUYS' for fake drama.

Either the Dominion should have won near the start without needing to bring the minefield down, or the Federation-Klingon-Romulan Alliance should have won fair and square without the fake upsurge of numbers that was poorly explained and not at all credible given the context of the war thus far (to say nothing of the breen coming up with that fantastic weapon that was quickly countered anyway).

Also I feel like I should reply to Thanas:

I don't know if the Cardassian rebellion was so out of left field, considering the Cardies have a massive superiority complex and the Dominion was openly running the show, sacrificing them as cannon fodder and taking over their state.

Yeah but I gotta question WHY the Dominion would treat the cardies like that anyway. My complaint is it feels really ham-fisted for a lot of reasons. On the other hand, I don't object to a cardassian rebellion per se but it just struck me as insincere to have Damar of all people lead it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Skylon argues that the Dominion continuing to win after SoA is unbelievable. I point out why this is not the case. You respond by arguing how it was unbelievable that the Dominion didn't win, as if this refutes what I am saying. What the hell?

[Metahive]

Yeah but I gotta question WHY the Dominion would treat the cardies like that anyway. My complaint is it feels really ham-fisted for a lot of reasons. On the other hand, I don't object to a cardassian rebellion per se but it just struck me as insincere to have Damar of all people lead it.

Because that's how the Dominion treats everyone they have under the knuckle and who has a large military potential. According to Changeling lore "solids" are all evil and out to get them unless they're enslaved or destroyed. The Breen would have felt the boot in their face eventually too if the war had ended in a Dominion victory, the Female Changeling at one point even flat out admitted that she bullshitted them for their support ("I'd have promised them the entire Alpha Quadrant to get them on our side").

Damar's rebellion felt organic to me because he was primarily motivated by patriotism and dedication to his people unlike Dukat who was more of a sleazy, selfish powermonger. I don't think of it as contrived and insincere at all. Klaus Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg was also a staunch supporter of Germany's war effort until the Nazi regime's increasingly savage and callous actions put him over the edge.

[Coalition]

Uh yeah, it is. Because at the start of season six the Federation lost an entire fleet of around a hundred ships and that was clear cue from the writers to us that things had gotten a bit desperate. The SoA threat was a Dominion fleet that would vanquish the Federation and it was what, low thousands? Then fast forward to late season seven when the breen entered the picture - they pull a technobabble attack that leaves the Allied fleet completely defenceless, and then get wiped out. The klingons are the only ones who are immune and they have a fleet of 1,500 to hold off 30,000 jem'hadar, cardassian and breen vessels.

They could have at least phrased it as:
"They are operating only a few light-years out of Cardassian territory. You know how heavily industrialized Cardassia and its colonies are and how close they are to our lines, compared to the distance your Birds of Prey have to travel for support due to Breen raiders. They can keep enough ships operating to outnumber you twenty to one."

The secret is only a few ships are operating out far from Cardassian territory, and those are the ones in good shape (new Jem'Hadar & Breen ships). The others are slowly breaking down due to maintenance issues and missing parts. Eventually someone starts measuring the amount of antimatter in the ships destroyed, and noticing that the fuel levels in the C/D/B fleet are slowly dropping (except for where the Breen are providing extra supplies to help out, in exchange for Cardassian supplies/territory/resources).

Combine that with steadily worsening shots of the atmosphere of Cardassia Prime, showing that they are stripmining their world and cutting safety to nearly zero to get every gram of material into a ship to fight, plus power savings/increased work requirements. F/K/R Intelligence thinks that the Cardassians are stronger than ever, but the Founder knows how close to defeat they are. The ships are operating long past overhaul times since they will be destroyed anyway, the crews are either disciplined (Cardassian), fanatical (Jem'Hadar), or fresh (Breen). With Cardassian discipline slowly breaking down, plus Breen favoritism, that leaves a potential problem for the Dominion.

[Stofsk]

Skylon argues that the Dominion continuing to win after SoA is unbelievable. I point out why this is not the case.

I agree with Skylon, and no you didn't point out why his thesis was not the case. All you said was 'oh but they've got a sizeable fleet and a large industrial base'. I pointed out the clear inconsistency in the ever-increasing fleet numbers for the Dominion.

You respond by arguing how it was unbelievable that the Dominion didn't win

No I didn't - can't you read? That's only half of what I said and I explained it in the context that it was a clear inconsistency. I gave an either/or condition at the end. For the Dominion to have 30,000 ships near the end of the conflict, they would have to have had those kind of numbers near the start if we're treating those numbers as realistic and consistent. Tens of thousands of ships don't just fucking materialise out of thin air. Yet at the start, specifically the SoA arc, there was only a low-ball count of 'thousands' of ships waiting to come out of the wormhole and deliver salvation to the bad guys. So either the Dominion already had those ships from the beginning, and thus it's unbelievable that they didn't just win outright as soon as the war started, OR the Fed-Klingon-Rom alliance should have won fair and square without resorting to bullshit fake drama (i.e. this is what I believe should have happened).

You basically said that the Dominion had a sizeable fleet and a pre-existing industrial base. The first is not true given the context of SoA (but not of season seven - i.e. the clear inconsistency I mentioned above) and the second isn't all that true either given that it's only been a few short years since the klingons came in and raped the cardassians and even so, it's still three against one by the time the romulans joined the Alliance - which felt confident enough about the war to go on the offensive by the end of the first year of hostilities.

[Terralthra]

Thousands of ships coming through the wormhole wouldn't be the Dominion's salvation, it would have been salvation for the Dominion occupation of DS9. It's certainly believable that the tens of thousands of ships defending Chintaka and Cardassia Prime during the end were the Home Fleet, tasked with defending Cardassian/Dominion/Breen territory during the war, recalled to Cardassia to defend against the endgame invasion by Starfleet/IKS/Romulan fleets. They couldn't have been sent to DS9 during the SoA arc because that would've left other Cardassian space open to attack during the war, when the battle lines were much more spread.

It's also fairly well-established during Season 6 that the supply convoys being sent weekly in from the Gamma Quadrant by the Dominion were warships and industrial supplies to set up massive shipyards (such as the one obliterated in the S7 opening arc).

[Stofsk]

Thousands of ships coming through the wormhole wouldn't be the Dominion's salvation, it would have been salvation for the Dominion occupation of DS9. It's certainly believable that the tens of thousands of ships defending Chintaka and Cardassia Prime during the end were the Home Fleet, tasked with defending Cardassian/Dominion/Breen territory during the war, recalled to Cardassia to defend against the endgame invasion by Starfleet/IKS/Romulan fleets. They couldn't have been sent to DS9 during the SoA arc because that would've left other Cardassian space open to attack during the war, when the battle lines were much more spread.

Sorry, but I don't agree. In 'Tears of the Prophets' you had Damar and Weyoun talk about the strategic disposition of their forces with the latter worrying over how the former was spreading their ships too thin. Not to mention the Alliance felt confident enough to plan an invasion; they're really going to do that if the Dominion has tens of thousands of ships protecting cardassian territory?

It's also fairly well-established during Season 6 that the supply convoys being sent weekly in from the Gamma Quadrant by the Dominion were warships and industrial supplies to set up massive shipyards (such as the one obliterated in the S7 opening arc).

Yeah and Sisko mined the entrance before more convoys could come in - so how many had gone through before then? And how much effect did this have? We know that at the end of 'A Call to Arms' the Federation-Klingon fleet had struck a strategic blow by destroying some shipyards, although three months later and they had suffered nothing but reversal after reversal. And for all the protestations that the thousands of ships that were coming through the wormhole wouldn't have been the Dominion's salvation, I don't think that's at all supported. In SoA Dukat was prematurely crowing victory because he felt that 2,800 Dominion ships would allow them to go on to conquer the Federation. And incidentally Weyoun went on to call Dukat someone who nearly cost them the war due to his failure.

[Terralthra]

Thousands of ships coming through the wormhole wouldn't be the Dominion's salvation, it would have been salvation for the Dominion occupation of DS9. It's certainly believable that the tens of thousands of ships defending Chintaka and Cardassia Prime during the end were the Home Fleet, tasked with defending Cardassian/Dominion/Breen territory during the war, recalled to Cardassia to defend against the endgame invasion by Starfleet/IKS/Romulan fleets. They couldn't have been sent to DS9 during the SoA arc because that would've left other Cardassian space open to attack during the war, when the battle lines were much more spread.

Sorry, but I don't agree. In 'Tears of the Prophets' you had Damar and Weyoun talk about the strategic disposition of their forces with the latter worrying over how the former was spreading their ships too thin. Not to mention the Alliance felt confident enough to plan an invasion; they're really going to do that if the Dominion has tens of thousands of ships protecting cardassian territory?

Well, this is specifically brought up in the Season 7 final arc. Both the Dominion war room and the Starfleet/IKS/Romulan war room comment on how the Dominion's fighting retreat to Cardassia Prime would allow them to concentrate their defenses, shorten supply lines. The female Founder says it will allow them specifically to redouble their shipbuilding efforts and reinforce the (much) smaller perimeter, while Sisko and Martok worry about the shipbuilding, and are surprised that the Dominion is pulling ships back from battle zones.

It could simply be that the Federation/IKS/Romulans did not expect the Dominion to pull forces back after the successful first push, but they did, so...

It's also fairly well-established during Season 6 that the supply convoys being sent weekly in from the Gamma Quadrant by the Dominion were warships and industrial supplies to set up massive shipyards (such as the one obliterated in the S7 opening arc).

Yeah and Sisko mined the entrance before more convoys could come in - so how many had gone through before then? And how much effect did this have? We know that at the end of 'A Call to Arms' the Federation-Klingon fleet had struck a strategic blow by destroying some shipyards, although three months later and they had suffered nothing but reversal after reversal. And for all the protestations that the thousands of ships that were coming through the wormhole wouldn't have been the Dominion's salvation, I don't think that's at all supported. In SoA Dukat was prematurely crowing victory because he felt that 2,800 Dominion ships would allow them to go on to conquer the Federation. And incidentally Weyoun went on to call Dukat someone who nearly cost them the war due to his failure.

At least five weeks' worth of convoys, as commented at the beginning of Call to Arms.

Dukat was always an arrogant ass. Weyoun was very clear that more forces wouldn't end the war instantly, and as they lost DS9, Weyoun and the Founder don't talk about the war being lost. The Founder's comment is "the war will take longer than expected" (emphasis mine), not "the war is lost." Even without further reinforcement, she expects to win still, just not as easily. Also, it's not like the 2,800 ships on the far side are the only remaining fleet in the Gamma quadrant. If one fleet comes through, so could more fleets.

[Skylon]

Sorry, I just found the war contrived, with every "advantage" picked up by the UFP/Klingons being negated at every turn to stretch the war out.

Shipyards destroyed in "A Call to Arms"? - The Dominion still has shit loads, and even gets to crap out new uber-designs ("Valiant").

Jem'Hadar? - We can clone them by the bucket load in Cardassian space apparently.

White? - In spite of a huge issue being made about this shit only getting made in the Gamma Quadrant in early season 6, its a non-issue later.

And I didn't even touch the fleet.

Their power base is Cardassia, who the Klingons managed to ass-rape in season 4. Granted, with Dominion reinforcements they would be doing better than they did in that fiasco, but the "woe, we are barely holding out" attitude that dominates the war in season 6 makes the UFP and Klingons either really fucking weak (and the Cardassians a lot more powerful than let on) or really inept - which they could well have been, as any major power can be in a war, if properly written - however this did not come across as that. Instead it just struck me as contrived.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Didn't the Dominion eventually secure a planet with some sort of algae they could synthisize into Ketracel White in the Alpha Quad?

[Terralthra]

Midway through the 7th season, in Penumbra, the Son'a are said to have produced large quantities of Ketracel White for the Dominion.

[Grumman]

While it wasn't possible from a story perspective, was there any particular reason why ketracel white could not be produced using replicator/transporter technology?

[Gandalf]

Didn't the Dominion eventually secure a planet with some sort of algae they could synthisize into Ketracel White in the Alpha Quad?

Yeah. One of the producers (RDM I think) stated that the Feds did indeed give up the Kabrel system in Statistical Probabilities.

[Gandalf]

While it wasn't possible from a story perspective, was there any particular reason why ketracel white could not be produced using replicator/transporter technology?

It's possible that the "recipe" or whatever you'd call it was guarded, so Jem' Hadar wouldn't be able to recreate it or get access to it outside of their official channels.

[Crazedwraith]

Didn't the Dominion eventually secure a planet with some sort of algae they could synthisize into Ketracel White in the Alpha Quad?

Yeah. One of the producers (RDM I think) stated that the Feds did indeed give up the Kabrel system in Statistical Probabilities.

Memory Alpha has him quoted as saying the opposite on an AOL chat

[Eframepilot]

There was a silly moment in the Season 7 premier when Weyoun said that, though Dukat's releasing of the Pah-wraith into the wormhole had the opposite effect that he promised (collapsing it instead of opening it for Dominion travel), it had somehow turned the course of the war in the Dominion's favor through some sort of mystical sympathetic magic (like the Emperor's death causing the Imperial forces to collapse, but even more indirectly). This poorly thought out mystical bullshit would be continued by Ron Moore in Galactica, to disappointing results.

I actually liked the idea of the Prophets vs. Pah-wraiths mystical battle as it was introduced but hated the execution, especially in the finale. They should have kept it grounded more in sci-fi.

[Grumman]

As an aside from the current discussion, I have to say I enjoyed SF Debris's take on Dukat's worldview. He might be a horrible person, but he's an awesome character.

[Ahriman238]

Yes, I had meant to include Waltz and the accompanying video dissecting Dukat's character.

It's not precisely related to the DOminon War arc, except that Dukat was reduced to nothing by his people, restored to glory through his alliance with the Dominion, arguably greater than ever before, and it all falls apart when the good guys win.

[JME2]

Yes, I had meant to include Waltz and the accompanying video dissecting Dukat's character.

It's not precisely related to the DOminon War arc, except that Dukat was reduced to nothing by his people, restored to glory through his alliance with the Dominion, arguably greater than ever before, and it all falls apart when the good guys win.

Dukat's change in fortunes from Seasons 4 through Season 6 really made for an interesting phase of his arc.

To this day, I still have mixed feelings over "Waltz". On one hand, it really delved deeply into Dukat's psychosis and what makes him tick. On the other hand, it set him off on the road to becoming the Anti-Emissary and the Pah-Wraith subplot still remains the weak link of DS9's Final Chapter for me.