The Federation "United Earth Happyness"

[Marc Xavier]

Here's a general question, which ultimately I don’t know if it has an answer, but I think is worth asking. It's a deep question, and a potentially dangerous question, but I want to know what folks truly think of it.

The United Federation of Planets, 24th century, based on what we know of Star Trek. Do you think that the United States Government, before it joined the EarthGovernment (or if not, the EarthGovernment or some portion of it after the US joined it) ever paid any form of reparations for the economic gains culled from the enslavement of some of its peoples?

More specifically, and simply, do you think that these folks actually ever paid any form of reparations for slavery or colonization or exploitation; to the people who suffered economic or political injury in the few centuries before first contact with the Vulcans? (IE, the 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries).

[TrailerParkJawa]

No, I dont see any reason why they would. I dont think people who have not even been born yet, owe any money for crimes comitted against people who died before I was born.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

If so/if not, so what? What difference would it make?

I thought the US government was already pressured into apologising for all that shit?

Why be forced to apologise for something done before anyone currently alive was born?

[Frank Hipper]

Would the myriad other governments guilty of the same, and worse, have to pony up in this scenario?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Would the myriad other governments guilty of the same, and worse, have to pony up in this scenario?

Probably not. We all know that the US has the highest concentration of White Middle Class Guilt Syndrome sufferers.

[Marc Xavier]

Pretty dim vide of the Federation all around, it seems.

And Spanky, although this is off topic:

Why be forced to apologise for something done before anyone currently alive was born?

One argument would be because of the life opportunities and advantages that a person is afforded (benefits inherited over the generations) that were ultimately culled from the forceful suffering of someone else (generations ago or not). Likewise, those benefits (which if no forceful suffering, IE enslavement occurred) would have been afforded to the descendents of the people who did the work to generate the wealth. But they do not retain it, the descendents of the oppressors do, and the decedents of the oppressed are left with reduced opportunities because of it (IE poverty, destruction of culture, collective psychological damage etcetc). Considering that the people alive at that time would still be largely benefiting from the past injustice, an apology for the actions of their ancestors (not themselves) doesn't seem all too much to ask.

Fortunately, in the happy blurry idealistic world of Star Trek, the opportunities of everyone could be theoretically equaled without *punishing* the decedents (who themselves did no harm) of the oppressors, and help the descents of the oppressed.

So, even given that, I take it the overwhelming majority of people here think the Feds (or pre-feds) just wouldn’t bother with it?

[Admiral Johnason]

I will go with the second because FC gave Earth a second chance and they decided to forgive one another. In other words, they became hippies.

[Uraniun235]

Except that the Federation was not founded immediately after Vulcan contact, and that the nuclear war was supposed to represent a low point in human history. (see "Encounter at Farpoint", and the 'post-atomic horror' stuff) Humans wouldn't suddenly become "enlightened", it would take time.

So no, no reparations would be made, especially as the world would still be getting back on it's feet for a little while and would have no spare resources for such frivolities.

Besides which, it's rather unfair to expect the children to pay for the sins of their parents, don't you think?

[Marc Xavier]

As I recall, according to some of the dialogue in FC, poverty hunger and all those bad things went away within 50 years of contact with the Vulcans.

See my reply to spanky.

[Uraniun235]

Yeah, but that's 50 years, which is a quarter of the 200 years between the war and TOS. I figure the first part will be too hard-pressed for resources to make reparations, and by the time there are enough resources to spend frivolously most people will probably be brought up to par with everyone else anyway. Yeah, it's not too realistic, but it's consistent with how Star Trek idealism would work. Hell, by the time they get around to being "enlightened" people may have stopped affixing importance to the nation-states of old and so may not have seen any real ties between them and the people of nations past.

Besides, in my opinion, apologizing for something that someone did that you never even knew is meaningless. I never knew my great-grandfather; for all I know he regularly butchered people in cold blood for the hell of it and left dozens of children orphans. Apologizing for something he did is meaningless to me, because the only connection we have is some similar genes. Wow, big deal. And even if it's meaningful to someone else... it's a moot point. If I do it just to appease or satisfy them, it'll be an empty apology on my part because I don't believe in it or even have any sorrow for it, and I'd feel more offended by an empty apology than by no apology at all.

Ancestry and "blood ties" are not particularly important or meaningful to me, and I disagree with the idea that I represent my ancestors in any meaningful fashion. I am not my father.

[Marc Xavier]

I agree. You are not your father.

But you inherit his money when he dies (maybe not you specifically, but generally, this is how wealth makes it's way down the generations through families).

[TrailerParkJawa]

As I recall, according to some of the dialogue in FC, poverty hunger and all those bad things went away within 50 years of contact with the Vulcans.

See my reply to spanky.

I see a few problems.

1) After WWIII there is not going to be much wealth. Everyone is hurting.
2) If they eliminiated all those bad things in 50 years, then whats the point of reperations.
3) Lets face it, we are probably talking about blacks in the USA right? Well, since most of them live in urban areas and the urban areas have been decimated by war, I would think the black man, is pretty rare in post holocaust USA. I could be wrong, but just something to think about.