The rise and fall of Empires

[Oberleutnant]

The newly-independent Finland almost bought a small piece of German Southwest Africa! A mighty colonial power indeed...

[Dark Primus]

The newly-independent Finland almost bought a small piece of German Southwest Africa! A mighty colonial power indeed...

That would have been interresting to see. Were the Germans willing to sell it?

[Colonel Olrik]

... hell, even the fucking DUTCH had an empire at one time.

That's surprising?

The Dutch held their empire longer than anyone else. The British colonies that survived until the twentieth century weren't claimed until the eighteenth, the Dutch had 50 or more years on them.

I challenge that. The portuguese were the first Europeans to have colonies, and we held many of them until 1975. Put together, they were still an area bigger than Continental Europe (just look at Angola and Mozambique).

[Darth Wong]

[I'm feeling very nostalgic right now]

How can you be nostalgic about things that happened before you were even alive?

[HemlockGrey]

Bah. We retain our colonial possessions to this very day.

[Colonel Olrik]

[I'm feeling very nostalgic right now]

How can you be nostalgic about things that happened before you were even alive?

It's a portugese thing, the word does not translate to english. Suffice to say that entire poetry treaties were written on the subject. The Centauri would understand

You're right, though, it's better to move on and help build the Great European Emp.. err.. I mean Union.

[Jeremy]

How can you be nostalgic about things that happened before you were even alive?

My guess is he has the same feelings as Charlemagne did when he founded the HRE.

A problem that I noticed was ethical decay. This is wittnessed in Rome esspecially with the Republic having its death blow signaled with the creation of the Triumviron. The Pax Romana Emperors did manage to sustain it, but only for a limited time.


In the case of the Federation there seems to be a large territory with dots of wealth here and there, so it is centeralized to some degree. I remember someone bringing up the idea that the only way the UFP could maintain its control over the people was by mind control and if they do do that then they don't have to worry about most forms of decay.

[Frank Hipper]

That's surprising?

The Dutch held their empire longer than anyone else. The British colonies that survived until the twentieth century weren't claimed until the eighteenth, the Dutch had 50 or more years on them.

I challenge that. The portuguese were the first Europeans to have colonies, and we held many of them until 1975. Put together, they were still an area bigger than Continental Europe (just look at Angola and Mozambique).

You're right. How long did Portugal hang on to Macao BTW? Or Goa, wasn't it still claimed by Portugal even during British times?

[Dark Primus]

Warp drive and subspace communications are slow; it takes more than a month for communications to reach outlying Federation territories, and YEARS for a ship to get there. Romulan and Klingon territories can be assumed to be similarly isolated unless they're much smaller than the Federation, which does not seem to be the case. As I said, they're massively overcentralized; it's a wonder the outlying territories can be kept under control at all, hence it's not a surprise that the Federation can hold its own despite inexcusably stupid policies.

Feds must have advanced their subspace technology very quickly. I take it for the message to take months of traveling must have been in the TNG era?

In a Voyager episode they could talk live to an alien captain 5000 ligthyears away. I think the name of the episode was "Voyager conspiracy"

[Warspite]

You're right. How long did Portugal hang on to Macao BTW? Or Goa, wasn't it still claimed by Portugal even during British times?

Macau (our spelling...) Stayed under Portuguese sovereignity until September 20th of 1999, the date of the official hand-over ceremony.

Goa was back into Indian hands in 1962, after the December 18/19th of 1961 invasion by the Indian forces (and the two other colonies, Damão and Diu).

[Jeremy]

here is something interesting, the Scots once had a colony in what is now Latin America (I think it was Panama but I am not sure so I will just say it is either in Centeral or South America)

[Oberleutnant]

The newly-independent Finland almost bought a small piece of German Southwest Africa! A mighty colonial power indeed...

That would have been interresting to see. Were the Germans willing to sell it?

Oh most certainly. If I recall correctly, it was not a very large area, though. Finland and Germany were real bedfellows back then, and had the Versailles peace treaty been not that harsh for Germany, Finland would have become a monarchy instead of a republic. Our would be king? A German-born noble.


Yeah, you also mentioned Delaware, the colony of New Sweden. It was indeed founded by Swedish and Finnish settlers who came there in the 17th century. Perhaps now would be a good time to reclaim it back, eh?

[Dark Primus]

Yeah, you also mentioned Delaware, the colony of New Sweden. It was indeed founded by Swedish and Finnish settlers who came there in the 17th century. Perhaps now would be a good time to reclaim it back, eh?

Yeah. We are going to use the back door invasion strategy. Have few thousands Swedes settled there and after few weeks they are going to demand military protection from the Swedish government against the brutal americans and of course a settle few thousand troops in the Delaware region and then brake away from US.

Woops Did I say that loud?

[Setzer]

Highly centralized empires failed in ancient times because of a lack of communication and lines of supply.

Warp drive and subspace communications are slow; it takes more than a month for communications to reach outlying Federation territories, and YEARS for a ship to get there. Romulan and Klingon territories can be assumed to be similarly isolated unless they're much smaller than the Federation, which does not seem to be the case. As I said, they're massively overcentralized; it's a wonder the outlying territories can be kept under control at all, hence it's not a surprise that the Federation can hold its own despite inexcusably stupid policies.

I did a post about this a while back. Or maybe it was on ASVS, I can't remember. But anyway, my point was just that: I theorized that Earth was to the Federation what England was to the British Empire. It seems to be the case for the UFP's neighbors as well. And of course, when the Klingon/Romulan/Cardassian empires all fal apart, there will be a shitload of planets that have no knowledge of functioning as independent, self-supporting entities.

[Lord Sander]

Yeah, you also mentioned Delaware, the colony of New Sweden. It was indeed founded by Swedish and Finnish settlers who came there in the 17th century.

Actually, during the first years of the New Sweden colony the immigrants were almost entirely Dutch.

Perhaps now would be a good time to reclaim it back, eh?

If you reclaim New Sweden, we reclaim New Netherland
Would be a lovely sight, the Dutch flag on the Empire State Building

[Jeremy]

Take it back, one less yankee state!

Of course this probably means reduced income for Florida but whatever even the Swedes need our orange juice.

[Kurgan]

How can you be nostalgic about things that happened before you were even alive?

He is immortal, and he is not alone...