A different take on "The Survivors"

[Ted C]

I never he said he was omnipotent and he sure ain't omniscient however can you explain to me why it is probable that he is lying compared to it being true that he killed those 50 Billion Husnock (Which Picard, the crew, the audience, the writers and just about everybody else believes).

He's unquestionably a liar because he was misleading them from the start about being human, about Rishon refusing to fight, about him not knowing why the attackers "spared" the two of them, etc. He seems to come clean when Picard comes back and confronts him, but after all that deception, do we really have any reason to trust him at the end?

[Darth Servo]

I never he said he was omnipotent and he sure ain't omniscient however can you explain to me why it is probable that he is lying compared to it being true that he killed those 50 Billion Husnock (Which Picard, the crew, the audience, the writers and just about everybody else believes).

The crew believes just about everything they hear, unless something "doesn't feel right". There is no evidence that the Husnok even existed other than the word of a known liar. They apparently have more firepower than pretty much any other alpha or beta quadrant power yet they are never even heard of prior to this episode. I suppose they could be zenophobes like the Praxins.

[TheDarkling]

I never he said he was omnipotent and he sure ain't omniscient however can you explain to me why it is probable that he is lying compared to it being true that he killed those 50 Billion Husnock (Which Picard, the crew, the audience, the writers and just about everybody else believes).

The crew believes just about everything they hear, unless something "doesn't feel right". There is no evidence that the Husnok even existed other than the word of a known liar. They apparently have more firepower than pretty much any other alpha or beta quadrant power yet they are never even heard of prior to this episode. I suppose they could be zenophobes like the Praxins.

Well the fact that they only number 50 billion indicates they aren't major players.

[Ted C]

Well the fact that they only number 50 billion indicates they aren't major players.

An oddity, given their vastly superior weapon technology and reported aggression. Chances are they kept their own numbers down with internal conflict, if they existed at all.

[Darth Servo]

Well the fact that they only number 50 billion indicates they aren't major players.

And what are the census figures for the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, etc?

Checked the database.

In "Yesterday's Enterprise" we hear about 40 billion deaths over a 20 year period.

Tau Cygna Five had 15,000 colonists. Khitomer had 4000 inhabitants. I can't find what the population of the moon was said to be in ST:FC. 250 million comes to mind, but I'm nowhere near certain.

[Posbi]

For a single race 50 billion doesn't sound that low. Using your ressources well you can be a damn powerful faction with that numbers.

[Darth Wong]

We have no way to know if it was real or not but the fact that the ship got uber'ed up for its second visit tends to make me think it was a construct and not a real ship.

It was probably running at low power during the first attack, with many systems running at minimal capacity. Its size and physical characteristics did not change, and it was MUCH larger than the E-D in both attacks.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether it was a construct or not; if the sensors showed data consistent with a real ship of certain characteristics, then this means that its effect on its environment must have been consistent with such a ship (that's how sensors work, after all).

[TheDarkling]

We have no way to know if it was real or not but the fact that the ship got uber'ed up for its second visit tends to make me think it was a construct and not a real ship.

It was probably running at low power during the first attack, with many systems running at minimal capacity. Its size and physical characteristics did not change, and it was MUCH larger than the E-D in both attacks.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether it was a construct or not; if the sensors showed data consistent with a real ship of certain characteristics, then this means that its effect on its environment must have been consistent with such a ship (that's how sensors work, after all).

I don't see how it matters eitehr but I do think it was a construct, the argument against the 400 GW stuff is something about shields acting weird and that would remain anyway even if the ship was real (it just had some funky effects), of course you would expect Worf to be surprised that "only" 400 GW of energy downed the shields when normally they would not since he wasn't it would seem iut wasn't out of the ordinary (of course that relies upon judging Worf's statement which is to a degree subjective).

To Clarify: I think it was a contruct, it doesn't effect the arguments (for or against) about the effects of the weapon although from Worf's reaction that energy wouldn't seem to be very low by Federation standards (that however is subjective).

[TheDarkling]

Well the fact that they only number 50 billion indicates they aren't major players.

And what are the census figures for the Federation, Klingons, Romulans, etc?

Checked the database.

In "Yesterday's Enterprise" we hear about 40 billion deaths over a 20 year period.

Tau Cygna Five had 15,000 colonists. Khitomer had 4000 inhabitants. I can't find what the population of the moon was said to be in ST:FC. 250 million comes to mind, but I'm nowhere near certain.

And in DS9 we are told the feds can take 900 Billion deaths before surrendering, so compared to the Feds these guys were rather small fry (although their Tech could be great, I'm not convinced either way).

[Darth Wong]

I don't see how it matters eitehr but I do think it was a construct, the argument against the 400 GW stuff is something about shields acting weird and that would remain anyway even if the ship was real (it just had some funky effects), of course you would expect Worf to be surprised that "only" 400 GW of energy downed the shields when normally they would not since he wasn't it would seem iut wasn't out of the ordinary (of course that relies upon judging Worf's statement which is to a degree subjective).

If 400GW was such a puny amount, you'd think that the previous shots in the MW range would have had them rolling around on the floor laughing. If you get someone to watch that episode without "preparing" them by discussing "vs" arguments to death, he WILL conclude that the MW-range weapon was weak, but the GW-range weapon was very powerful.

I defy anyone to watch that episode and come to the conclusion that Worf was shocked at how small the 400GW number was, UNLESS he has been "prepared" with knowledge of the "vs" debates (and an agenda to distort the facts to suit a predestined conclusion). We all know that any normal person, regardless of whether he is technically inclined, will watch that episode and conclude that 400GW is a big number against a Federation ship.

[TheDarkling]

I don't see how it matters eitehr but I do think it was a construct, the argument against the 400 GW stuff is something about shields acting weird and that would remain anyway even if the ship was real (it just had some funky effects), of course you would expect Worf to be surprised that "only" 400 GW of energy downed the shields when normally they would not since he wasn't it would seem iut wasn't out of the ordinary (of course that relies upon judging Worf's statement which is to a degree subjective).

If 400GW was such a puny amount, you'd think that the previous shots in the MW range would have had them rolling around on the floor laughing. If you get someone to watch that episode without "preparing" them by discussing "vs" arguments to death, he WILL conclude that the MW-range weapon was weak, but the GW-range weapon was very powerful.

I defy anyone to watch that episode and come to the conclusion that Worf was shocked at how small the 400GW number was, UNLESS he has been "prepared" with knowledge of the "vs" debates (and an agenda to distort the facts to suit a predestined conclusion). We all know that any normal person, regardless of whether he is technically inclined, will watch that episode and conclude that 400GW is a big number against a Federation ship.

Ermm yeah.

Isn't that what I just said?

[Darth Wong]

Ermm yeah.

Isn't that what I just said?

Yeah, I just wanted to add the bit about how regular people react to that episode.

[TheDarkling]

Ermm yeah.

Isn't that what I just said?

Yeah, I just wanted to add the bit about how regular people react to that episode.

People come in regular now?

[Darth Wong]

Ermm yeah.

Isn't that what I just said?

Yeah, I just wanted to add the bit about how regular people react to that episode.

People come in regular now?

Not around here.

But they speak of a place called "real life", where people drive cars instead of imaginary shuttlepods and landspeeders, and where the phrase "400 gigawatt weapon in Survivors" elicits confusion rather than a visceral reaction.

[Uraniun235]

After watching my file:

1) The 40 MW shots were fired from only TWO points on the ship.

2) I'm not sure if another hardpoint was actually ADDED or if it was simply not used; my copy is annoyingly low-resolution and I don't trust what I'm seeing, but I have to lean towards the model not changing throughout the episode. (although it seems like different shots are used for the Husnock attack manuever, which would seem rather odd of Paramount to do if they had used the same model)

My own comment: How would it serve the story to have Kevin lie about the Husnock he killed at the end?