Federation isn't a Communism

[Ronaldo]

On DS9 Latinum is the currency and Starfleet members need to have some of it so they can buy stuff. But this is because DS9 is not a Federation space station, it is Bayoran. You don´t see this in 10 forward in the E-D or at any other Federation Space Station.

Federation Credits are worth nothing outside the Federation, like the East German 'Ostmark' was worthless as soon as you went to West Germany, but not vice versa, on contrary.

And I remember a DS9 episode (it was the one where Cpt. Sisko went to Earth to his father after the wurmhole was closed). The father said, Benjamin Sisko used his transporter credit for one year or so in the first week when he went to starfleet academy, because he beamed home to eat every evening.

I always had the impression that Federation citicens are assigned to ressources by the state (perhaps depending on their functions) rather than working for money. You never see them talk about money like we do, except when they deal with Ferengis or so.

The TNG Federation does seem to be communist in many ways. Not only are people limited in the amount of wealth they can have, but their movements, beliefs, and behaviors are monitored. This does not seem to be the case with every Federation member species, just humans.

The acquisition of wealth is disdained by Starfleet members and species that have strong financial skillls are derided for being the way they are. The Ferengi, for example, are constantly criticized by Starfleet officers for wanting to improve themselves economically. Any society that collectively derides the acquisition of wealth has to have been thoroughly brainwashed by leftists.

I would say that the only reason why humans don't live in extreme poverty is because of the replicator technology. Replicators, as we have seen them portrayed, could maintain a decent standard of living for the people, but such a controlled society would be oppressive. Can you imagine working hard just to have to wait for the government to decide that you earned the chance to have a larger living space? Or maybe get a pass to go to a different planet? The only humans that we have seen traveling in space in in TNG have been government employees, maquis, or Ben Sisko's wife who was working for the Bajorans. And the Maquis were branded terrorists by the Federation.

[Admiral Johnason]

You forget that art is allowed and that there is religion in the member worlds.

Neither of these has anything to do with communism. They have to do with communism in China and the Soviet Bloc.

In true Marxism, art is abolished along with religion. In any modern Communist state, the offical religion is atheist and all other religions are persecuted into oblivion.

I believe it is somewhere in Marx's notes or the Communist Manafesto, but I'm not sure which one.

[Typhonis 1]

Something else that has been brought up is that Trois mother is an AMBASSADOR yet she has to hitch rides on Starfleet ships??

[Admiral Johnason]

Something else that has been brought up is that Trois mother is an AMBASSADOR yet she has to hitch rides on Starfleet ships??

Did you even watch the episodes with her?! She has the hots for Picard.

[Death from the Sea]

Something else that has been brought up is that Trois mother is an AMBASSADOR yet she has to hitch rides on Starfleet ships??

Did you even watch the episodes with her?! She has the hots for Picard.

Plus most starfleet ships should easily outpace civilian ships, like with Kivas Fago's ship in the episode "The Most Toys" Fago's ship had a max warp of about 3 or so. Besides when on business of the state, it would make more sense to use starfleet vessels rather than any personal transportation.

[SirNitram]

Something else that has been brought up is that Trois mother is an AMBASSADOR yet she has to hitch rides on Starfleet ships??

Didn't she spend part of her journey in a hollowed out message pod?

[Death from the Sea]

Something else that has been brought up is that Trois mother is an AMBASSADOR yet she has to hitch rides on Starfleet ships??

Didn't she spend part of her journey in a hollowed out message pod?

I think you are confusing Lwaxana with K'Ehleyr, there was an episode in which she (K'Ehleyr) was placed into a torpedo casing and shot in the direction of the Ent-D to shorten the time for the Ent-D to come and pick her up. The episode was "The Emissary" in case you wanted to go check it out again.

[Admiral Drason]

You forget that art is allowed and that there is religion in the member worlds.

Neither of these has anything to do with communism. They have to do with communism in China and the Soviet Bloc.

In true Marxism, art is abolished along with religion. In any modern Communist state, the offical religion is atheist and all other religions are persecuted into oblivion.

I believe it is somewhere in Marx's notes or the Communist Manafesto, but I'm not sure which one.

Art wasn't illegal in The Soviet Union. Art was Illegal if it went against the state. I would also like to point out that almost all Communist governments do not follow Marx word for word.

[Vympel]

Arguments trying to pretend that the Federation wasn't the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in space (except without balls) inevitably construct a strawman version of a commuist state to prove it.

[Admiral Johnason]

Arguments trying to pretend that the Federation wasn't the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in space (except without balls) inevitably construct a strawman version of a commuist state to prove it.

My bad. I assumed that becasue it was the future and this soceity had enough advanced technology, they could duciplate a perfect Marxist socity. However, I was try to prove on a few points, that because they do not fit the perfect communist soceity, they were not a true Communism.

[Publius]

However, I was try to prove on a few points, that because they do not fit the perfect communist soceity, they were not a true Communism.

What is "a" Communism? Communism/Marxism-Leninism is a socio-economic and political ideology first implemented on a large scale in the former Russian Empire. There is not more than one Communism, because it is an idea. There are, however, several Communist states, such as the People's Republic of China, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, and the Republic of Cuba.

Noticeably, most Communist states deviate from the Marxist-Leninist ideal at some point (generally by prolonging the "dictatorship of the proletariat" indefinitely), but for the most part Communist states are easily identified by their dogmatic materialism, totalitarianism, socialistic/command economics, and aggressive distrust of capitalism and outsiders. One of the interesting results of Communist ideology is an almost pathological distrust of "politically unreliable" enlisted personnel, causing its armed forces to lean rather heavily on their lower-ranking commissioned officers.

For this reason, a lieutenant in the Workers' and Peasants' Red Army could often be found doing the same work as a sergeant in the United States or British Armies. Likewise the Workers' and Peasants' Red Fleet; there is a disconnect between rank and responsibility. Important tasks are often performed by people of seemingly inappropriately high rank.

Judging by a few criteria, the modern United Federation of Planets tends to give the definite impression of materialism, a sort of Huxleyesque totalitarianism, an extremely different economy (the crew of the Enterprise-D seemingly had no understanding of the concept of an investment portfolio), and a general distaste for capitalism (i.e., the Ferengi). While none of these things individually would suggest a Communist state, taken together, they do so quite strongly.

As an aside, it should be noted that the existence of private property belonging to the Picard family or to Captain Sisko's father does not disprove the contention that the United Federation is a Marxist-Leninist state. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels quite clearly wrote in section three of The Communist Manifesto:

In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.

We Communists have been reproached with the desire of abolishing the right of personally acquiring property as the fruit of a man's own labour, which property is alleged to be the groundwork of all personal freedom, activity and independence.

Hard-won, self-acquired, self-earned property! Do you mean the property of the petty artisan and of the small peasant, a form of property that preceded the bourgeois form? There is no need to abolish that; the development of industry has to a great extent already destroyed it, and is still destroying it daily.

A vineyard belonging to a small family, or a small restaurant in a city, are not sufficiently "bourgeois" in Comrades Marx and Engels's estimation to merit abolition (note that they did not use the term in its correct, middle-class sense -- they routinely ignored the middle class -- , but rather to mean the upper class, in opposition to the proletariat; neither the Picards nor the Sisko restaurant represent upper class private property).

Publius

[Soulman]

One of the interesting results of Communist ideology is an almost pathological distrust of "politically unreliable" enlisted personnel, causing its armed forces to lean rather heavily on their lower-ranking commissioned officers.

For this reason, a lieutenant in the Workers' and Peasants' Red Army could often be found doing the same work as a sergeant in the United States or British Armies. Likewise the Workers' and Peasants' Red Fleet; there is a disconnect between rank and responsibility. Important tasks are often performed by people of seemingly inappropriately high rank.

That seems to fit in somewhat with what we see in TNG+, there is a distinct lack of enlisted personel seen carrying out important jobs. In the real world I beleive that a lot of the jobs done by bridge officers in TNG are carried out by the enlisted personel.

[Patrick Degan]

Indeed. This past Friday, TNN ran "Hollow Pursuits", in which we see Twitch Barclay, a lieutennant, doing a maintenance job which should have gone to an EM3. Such a ridiculous state of affairs didn't even exist in the Soviet Navy. I'd say the Federation has far deeper problems running through the fabric of its society than its mere conversion to communism. Even in communist societies, they know enough not to make the services top-heavy with chiefs.

[Kurgan]

I didn't see any crosses in the TOS Enterprise chapel, only an infinity symbol and some indistinct glyphic pictures.

Of course I could be wrong, I'd have to re-watch every episode.

It seems that the Federation becomes more socialist as time goes on.

In ST4 they act like they don't use money, but that could just mean a cashless system. In TNG it seems different than TOS.

[Publius]

In ST4 they act like they don't use money, but that could just mean a cashless system. In TNG it seems different than TOS.

It is necessarily the case. Although Admiral Kirk complains that "they still use money" in The Voyage Home, Captain Scott mentions that he's recently bought a boat in The Undiscovered Country (and Captain Kirk mentions having sold his house in Generations). The lack of cash in the original era of Star Trek is not the same as the lack of capitalism in the modern era.

Publius