Officially sanctioned illegal research

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CDiehl
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Post by CDiehl »

Temporary telekinesis can be produced using an injection of kironide. It can be used to inflict horrible injuries one an enemy (rip them apart, make them shoot each other or themselves, crush their organs, suffocate them). Think Darth Vader and Muad'Dib's love child. It can be used to push melee weapon strikes away, shove an enemy away, replace a parachute for pilots or paratroopers, or manipulate controls from a distance. Emergency worker could lift heavy objects off injured people, move unconscious people wo are out of reach, prevent jumpers from dying. Some of these feats would require training to become stronger and more accurate; a holodeck with sensors able to detect thoughts could help with this. The downside is the possibility of becoming dependent on the chemical and its powers, so this stuff might be reserved for emergencies, or humans would become the TK version of the Talosians.
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Post by Darth Wong »

This bickering over the potential usefulness of the genetically modified superhumans is off-topic. The original question was how they could be performing this research when genetic tampering is ILLEGAL in the Federation, and no satisfactory answer has been given.

I will provide my theory: they planned to kill the children when the experiment was complete. The objective of the experiment was undoubtedly to determine how the human genetic code works, but for that, they need to test the effects of deliberate large-scale mutations (sort of like the way you test a spring by subjecting it to monstrous loads which a real spring would probably never encounter).

The inevitable objection is that this goes against Federation values. However, that doesn't work because the Federation possesses bioweapons and other WMD and allows individual captains to use them at their own disgression. The fact is that no one on the Enterprise had the slightest inkling what they were really up to, which means that it was a secret project. The existence of the station might have been public knowledge, but the true nature of the research going on inside was clearly not.

With the kind of genetic discoveries that would have been necessary for so many improvements, some of them would have inevitably made their way into medical journals, yet Dr. Pulaski was stunned at every single one of them. Did they all occur at once, in such a short period of time that none of them had made their way into the journals yet? That's pretty doubtful, to say the least.
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Post by Isolder74 »

The Fact that their research was kept secret is obvious. It wasn't until they started to die that the fact the children even exsisted came out. And then they insisted that the children be saved by having the Enterprise take them away. Pulascki was truely shocked when she found out what they had been doing further indicating that not everything was on the up and up. My question was this research known to High Command and kept secret?
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

There's actually no real reason why all of the abilities displayed by the children could not have been derived from pre-existing research.

The physical and mental "perfection" route from the Eugenics Wars is ancient history by the time of TNG. And they are easy enough to introduce that what amounts to a back alley doctor could perform resequencing of young Jules Bashir's DNA to provide him with the brains and superior reflexes and hand-eye coordination that he was so sorely lacking.

Federation medical science is up to the task of producing Klingon/Human crosses as well as Human/Vulcan crosses and various others, even Klingon/Trill crosses. Betazoids and Humans may even be able to produce offspring without medical assistance.

Telepathy and other ooky mind powers could easily be derived from a combination of the systematic psi-talent testing of all Starfleet personnel (as established when Kirk's bestest buddy of all time got silver eyes and tried to kill everyone) and the identification of the biological processes leading to the generation of those mind powers. By Picard's day it's well established that the mental powers of telepathic species are based on specific brain structures, and telepathic/empathic powers can be inherited by human/Betazoid crosses.

So, to get the necessary telepathy/psychokinesis/what-have-you, you could splice appropriate (identified) borrowed DNA sections from suitable Federation species into the genetic material of the human test subjects or embryos. Dr. Crusher apparently conducted similar retroviral therapy routinely to treat illnesses.

Alternatively, use a variation on that retroviral technique to "activate" human junk DNA segments that closely match the properties of the alien DNA segments.

That the Federation has not done any of that officially, and in fact actively persecutes those who engage in such activities, can be based only on deep-seated human social trauma dating from the Eugenics wars. Humans (and the human-socialized but ardently Klingon Worf) certainly reacted very negatively to the revelation of Bashir's genetic improvement. The simple fact that Federation humans in the form of Starfleet officers consistently claim jurisdiction over humans, regardless of the actual political affiliation or citizenship of the humans, does support that slightly. That way, the genetic engineering taboos can be enforced regardless of the circumstances.

The same illogical, knee-jerk reaction was shown when Riker and Pulaski disintegrated (AKA: murdered) their nearly grown clones (TNG, I believe the episode title was Up the Long Ladder). No repercussions resulted. Later, under Bajoran criminal jurisdiction, in the DS9 episode A Man Alone, a Bajoran was arrested for intentionally killing his own clone (defined as murder), and a further, accidentally produced clone was released into the Bajoran population some time later.

As a slight digression, the Federation inability to even contemplate the use of technologies covered by taboo, regardless of the potential Federation-saving nature of the technologies, is also well established. In A Man Alone, Bashir grows cell samples from a "triphasic" cloning operation into a fully grown adult humanoid in the space of a few days (as in, about 3). Using the rapid teaching established in TOS, back when Uhura's mind was wiped and she was supposed to be back on duty and fully qualified again within weeks, the Federation should have been easily able to match the Dominion's troop strength. It would have been a simple matter of selecting a pool of suitable candidates (like Julian Bashir, if his modifications became inheritable), cloning them, and putting them through a rapid training program. Since a common criminal with essentially self-taught skills picked up from a prison buddy was able to carry out the cloning, and taught the clone well enough to allow it to order a holosuite program at Quark's and enjoy the same, it's not really hard.

To get back on track, I'd want to bet that the researchers were just the typical sci-fi and contemporary setting idiot scienticians. They never considered that the rest of the Federation might not agree that the genetically boosted plague carriers represented the future of humanity, and got their just rewards for meddling with things "man was not meant to know (TM)." They got off easy with a lifetime blockade. To properly match the stereotype of such a story, all the scientists should have died horribly of old age before Pulaski found the cure.

There's also the fact that genetic tampering is perfectly legal in the Federation. Half the transporter cures amount to genetic tampering, as does Crusher's retroviral therapy to cure alien flu, though that last may not be heritable. It's only genetic improvement, especially of one's offspring, that is clearly illegal. The justification is supposed to be that it would start the humans of the Federation down an inevitable slippery slope to new Khan Singhs and overwhelming social pressure to optimize offspring to be able to keep up with the Joneses.

That's where the scientists crossed the line. They did not limit themselves to regenerating an arm or curing a disease. They tried, with distressing lack of common sense when one considers the "active immune system of doom," to improve their offspring. That is, they tried to make themselves, via their ofspring, better than others without undergoing decades of study of Greek philosphy and Sun Tzu and Shakespeare in order to learn how to pilot starships and fire phasers. Or something like that.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Patrick Ogaard wrote:Superintelligence? How about teaching the Federation humans how to use the intelligence they've got? There's plenty of room for development there without adding all manner of imponderables likely to produce a pack of mixed nuts like the idiot geniuses Bashir ended up dealing with
:wtf:
Are you just picking on this because it's from the UFP or what?
You just spoke about efficiency, being more intelligent is ALOT more effective, and since it's genetically engineered in you, it's hereditar and therefore very cheap.
Superstrength? Perceptible advantages: you are now prime slave material for a low-tech world looking for cheap, high-capacity stevedores; you can now easily kill a man with your bare hands, unless he disintegrates you first with his phaser.
Again, WTF? :wtf:
What are you going on about anyway? You think that if humans are stronger they will all become slaves because suddenly the whole universe will turn on them for easy slaves?
Pfffftt.... any such low-tech world could alot more easily purchase industrial equipment instead of slaves.
That does not appear to be a recipe for the improvement of humanity. More like multiple dead ends pursued simultaneously.
Not really no, heightened intelligence and strenght seems like two extremely efficient improvements.
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Patrick Ogaard wrote:Superintelligence? How about teaching the Federation humans how to use the intelligence they've got? There's plenty of room for development there without adding all manner of imponderables likely to produce a pack of mixed nuts like the idiot geniuses Bashir ended up dealing with
:wtf:
Are you just picking on this because it's from the UFP or what?
You just spoke about efficiency, being more intelligent is ALOT more effective, and since it's genetically engineered in you, it's hereditar and therefore very cheap.
Superstrength? Perceptible advantages: you are now prime slave material for a low-tech world looking for cheap, high-capacity stevedores; you can now easily kill a man with your bare hands, unless he disintegrates you first with his phaser.
Again, WTF? :wtf:
What are you going on about anyway? You think that if humans are stronger they will all become slaves because suddenly the whole universe will turn on them for easy slaves?
Pfffftt.... any such low-tech world could alot more easily purchase industrial equipment instead of slaves.
That does not appear to be a recipe for the improvement of humanity. More like multiple dead ends pursued simultaneously.
Not really no, heightened intelligence and strenght seems like two extremely efficient improvements.
I'll continue to play devil's advocate on this, though. Improved intelligence can actually be detrimental to efficiency. Presumably unmodified Federation human children nowhere near puberty are expected to be able to deal with calculus. That Jake Sisko as a young teen was still dealing with algebra might be indication of a severe learning disability on his part, or simply the inefficiency of relying on Ben Sisko's homeschooling ablities and a computer terminal.

With increased intelligence, which is itself a fairly nebulous concept, comes an increase in personal expectations. A crew composed of hyperintelligent genetically modified humans may not want to waste its time pulling maintenance on deuterium tank fittings, repairing broken toilets or doing any of the thousands of supremely ordinary things that even an advanced starship would require to keep it in decent shape. That likely means that either a dissatisfied genius worker will do the work in a supremely slipshod manner, or a strain of intellectually stunted (AKA normally intelligent) workers bred for scut work will be seen as a good option, assuming everything ordinary is not turned over to robots. It can quickly become a matter of too many chiefs and not enough indians.

As for increased strength, I still fail to see where the real, across the board advantages are supposed to be. Certainly it would be useful for stevedores, furniture movers or special forces troops that actually expect to be engaging their opponents in hand to hand combat. The problem is that for almost everyone else, dramatically increased strength would in fact be potentially dangerous.

Let's take a genetic modification that provides average humans with strength levels equivalent to a chimpanzee of the same weight. One common figure thrown about regarding the approximate strength ratio between chimps and humans is 5:1. Thus, let's say that Joe Average soldier has a body mass of 80 kilograms and can, genetically unmodified, bench press his own weight. Nothing shabby, but nothing Olympic. With the genetic modification, he can now bench press 400 kilograms routinely. But that strength modification should apply to all aspects of strength equally. Thus, pens break constantly, keyboards get accidentally smashed, rifles snap when a nervous soldier grips his assault rifle tightly, and the foot pedals of motor vehicles require daily replacement.

The obvious answer would be to overengineer everything accordingly, increasing the mass of equipment and not only reducing the weight packing advantage of the strength but also making the equipment practically unusable by unmodified soldiers. The alternative is to have the soldiers trained to not misapply their excessive strength, though stress can lead to forgetfulness.

More problematic, though, is that if that strength boost becomes common in the general population, we have the same problems as above, but with a less disciplined group. That could have a massive detrimental economic impact. Similarly, what if not everyone has that super strength? Reasonable legal protections for the non-strong would require that any altercation between a modified and an unmodified human would have to consider the modified human as being armed with a deadly weapon. That would drastically screw the modified humans in conflicts with unmodified humans.

There is also the question of how the body is supposed to support that increased strength. Even if it could be done without reducing neoteny (and thus producing mentally inflexible Klingons), that strength still has to be fuelled. Modern "strongest man" competitors typically have to consume 7,500 to 8,000 Calories worth of food daily, and avail themselves of the modern wonder of toilet paper at least four times daily to get rid of the indigestible parts. (Modified soldiers under stressful combat conditions would likely up that further, since unmodified modern soldiers get close to those caloric requirements under combat conditions.)

Also, at what age does the strength boost set in? A 20-kilogram child with that kind of strength boost would be able to lift up and toss its mother across the room in a fit of temper. A distraught baby clutching a parent could unintentionally crush that parent's throat. If it sets in at puberty, then kids would essentially "monsterize," making the transition from child to young adult even harder.

It just does not seem hugely useful as a modification. The increased risk of wear and tear, inevitable herniations and smashed disks, dramatically increased food requirements and smashed surroundings do not seem to merit the benefit of being able to carry more gear in a rucksack. The close combat benefits hardly exist: stabbing someone with a combat knife or bayonet does not require superhuman strength. Even single-strike decapitations and the lopping off of arms are well within the limits of normal human strength as long as a suitable blade is used.

What would make sense, though, would be treatments to allow subjects to fully develop their genetic strength potential, just like education designed to maximize usable intelligence would be worthwhile.
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Post by CDiehl »

I think increased strength can work, if it is accompanied by increased muscle control and training to use that control. It's no good to have great strength if you lose the ability to manipulate small, sensitive items. Also, when giving increased strength, how do you handle giving the subject increased mass? Do you make them stocky, or make them taller, or both?
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Post by kojikun »

this stuff happens in real life you know. for instance, many drugs are illegal without any medical uses, but are frequently allowed to be sold. Its called beneficial neglect.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

I'll continue to play devil's advocate on this, though. Improved intelligence can actually be detrimental to efficiency. Presumably unmodified Federation human children nowhere near puberty are expected to be able to deal with calculus. That Jake Sisko as a young teen was still dealing with algebra might be indication of a severe learning disability on his part, or simply the inefficiency of relying on Ben Sisko's homeschooling ablities and a computer terminal.
With increased intelligence, which is itself a fairly nebulous concept, comes an increase in personal expectations. A crew composed of hyperintelligent genetically modified humans may not want to waste its time pulling maintenance on deuterium tank fittings, repairing broken toilets or doing any of the thousands of supremely ordinary things that even an advanced starship would require to keep it in decent shape. That likely means that either a dissatisfied genius worker will do the work in a supremely slipshod manner, or a strain of intellectually stunted (AKA normally intelligent) workers bred for scut work will be seen as a good option, assuming everything ordinary is not turned over to robots. It can quickly become a matter of too many chiefs and not enough indians
But as with your Jake Sisko example the same can apply to ordinary humans that are smarter.
I was thinking of increasing the average IQ from 100 to maybe 130 or so, learning is still a factor and I believe there will still be enough average joes that do not study to their full potential.
Let's take a genetic modification that provides average humans with strength levels equivalent to a chimpanzee of the same weight. One common figure thrown about regarding the approximate strength ratio between chimps and humans is 5:1. Thus, let's say that Joe Average soldier has a body mass of 80 kilograms and can, genetically unmodified, bench press his own weight. Nothing shabby, but nothing Olympic. With the genetic modification, he can now bench press 400 kilograms routinely. But that strength modification should apply to all aspects of strength equally. Thus, pens break constantly, keyboards get accidentally smashed, rifles snap when a nervous soldier grips his assault rifle tightly, and the foot pedals of motor vehicles require daily replacement.
That might occur yes, if the person in question has not grown up with it.
The obvious answer would be to overengineer everything accordingly, increasing the mass of equipment and not only reducing the weight packing advantage of the strength but also making the equipment practically unusable by unmodified soldiers. The alternative is to have the soldiers trained to not misapply their excessive strength, though stress can lead to forgetfulness
I think simply using stronger materials will be the easy solution, ofcourse it wouldn't be as cheap.
More problematic, though, is that if that strength boost becomes common in the general population, we have the same problems as above, but with a less disciplined group. That could have a massive detrimental economic impact. Similarly, what if not everyone has that super strength? Reasonable legal protections for the non-strong would require that any altercation between a modified and an unmodified human would have to consider the modified human as being armed with a deadly weapon. That would drastically screw the modified humans in conflicts with unmodified humans
That is a problem yes that will just have to be faced if so.
There is also the question of how the body is supposed to support that increased strength. Even if it could be done without reducing neoteny (and thus producing mentally inflexible Klingons), that strength still has to be fuelled. Modern "strongest man" competitors typically have to consume 7,500 to 8,000 Calories worth of food daily, and avail themselves of the modern wonder of toilet paper at least four times daily to get rid of the indigestible parts. (Modified soldiers under stressful combat conditions would likely up that further, since unmodified modern soldiers get close to those caloric requirements under combat conditions.)
Would seem that high-calorie food is something to be preffered then, less mass, more energy, nearly 100% digestable, anyway many people might not use their strenght either, one still has to train and everything like any normal humans.
Also, at what age does the strength boost set in? A 20-kilogram child with that kind of strength boost would be able to lift up and toss its mother across the room in a fit of temper. A distraught baby clutching a parent could unintentionally crush that parent's throat. If it sets in at puberty, then kids would essentially "monsterize," making the transition from child to young adult even harder
If the parent has the same strenght ratio as the baby I do not see a problem.
It just does not seem hugely useful as a modification. The increased risk of wear and tear, inevitable herniations and smashed disks
That would be a problem if you increased strenght without increasing the durability of the "frame".
dramatically increased food requirements and smashed surroundings do not seem to merit the benefit of being able to carry more gear in a rucksack.
Personally I doubt there'll be alot of smashing as you say, we have people today that are far above the average strenght of a man and they don't smash things.
As for the eating, thats related to one's metabolism, I do not see why people should have an increased metabolism if their muscle structures are more effective, metabolism seems to be something that is high in atheletes and such, due to them making it so through strenous exercise.
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