Best Fleet Formation for Trek Ships?

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-07-11 03:11pm

What would be the best Fleet formation to be used for battles on the scale of those shown in DS9's Dominion War? On screen, there appeared (at least to me) to be very little fleet scale formations of ships. They looked like they were just thrown together in a massive hoge podge most of the time. I would like your input as to which you feel would be the most effective formation given canon weapons and systems constraints.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-07-11 03:28pm

Well I've had some ideas for a while now.

Akiras and War Nebulas would work well together as fire support ships. Defiants working together in packs with Steamrunners and Sabres would also make for good formations.

Galaxy's seem to be the standard heavy ship and we do hear of Galaxy Squadrons. These are either formations of Galaxy's working together or a squadron of ships a Galaxy controls and there are several of them. This makes a degree of sense.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-07-11 03:28pm

Well, given the apparent lack of experience with fleet tactics among Starfleet captains, simple would probably be better.

Get your bigger, tougher ships, the Sovereigns, War Galaxies, War Nebulas, and the like to form the center mass of the formation.

Behind (or, given the short range of quantum torpedos, inside) the battleship formation, have the torpedo-heavy cruisers like Akiras.

Use Sabers, Steamrunners, and Defiants to protect the formations' flanks and attack heavily damaged enemy ships.

Assuming my memory isn't wrong about phasers having proven more effective against shields than against starship hulls, you'd want the ships with heavy phaser batteries to concentrate their firepower on shielded vessels. The Akiras would start out the early battle just hammering on the biggest, toughest ships in the enemy fleet. Once an enemy ship's shields dropped, a few volleys of q-torps should make short work of them; one volley probably would with the throw weight of an Akira. The lighter and more manueverable starships could work around the edges of the enemy formation, performing harassing strikes against heavier ships or destroying lighter ones, and cherry-picking enemy vessels that tried to withdraw due to heavy combat damage.

The problem with this is that, as far as I know, Starfleet vessels show little in the way of systems designed to coordinate tactics among multiple vessels. The Enterprise was the flagship of the fleet in TNG, but showed no particular facilities for an Admiral to command a fleet from it, though I suppose the secondary bridge could serve as such.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2003-07-11 06:35pm

Just to add: let the Nebulas unload their torps at range back with the Akiras, then close in to support the Galaxies. Or perhaps it would be better to let the phaser-heavy ships work the enemy shields down first and then have the missile ships fire their payloads into unshielded hulls.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-07-11 07:34pm

Since most ST captains don't know shit about tactics or maneuvering, the moving wall formation seems good.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-07-11 09:50pm

Romulans:

Use their cloaks to penetrate an enemy wall formation and then open up with everything they got. If they're outnumbered, they should fire everything and then return to cloak while speeding away from their location as fast as possible. Warbirds should work in small groups to prevent ships from exploiting their blind spot. At least half of their fleet should be cloaked at all times to give misleading numbers and confusion.

Klingon:

Swarm the enemy formations with BoPs that stay in the ship's blind spots (luckily, the blind spot on wallowing Fed ships and Romulan designs are easier to exploit than their own blind spots.) while Vor'chas and Negh'vars encircle the enemy while under cloak. K't'ingas and their ilk should be used to prevent ships from escaping the encirclement.

Cloak the Vor'chas and Negh'vars but keep the K't'ingas and BoPs in front of them and charge their fleet. Keep some lighter ships in reserve, also cloaked. As the enemy wall collapses on fast ships, bring the heavy ships around the collapsed wall and decloak with the reserve ships decloaking at the center to smash the enemy on all sides. Any ships attempting to escape should be hounded by BoPs.

Federation:

Arrange old ships into a cylinder-like formation where the engineering hulls point inwards and the saucers outside. Send these formations straight into the enemy wall and spin them so all the ships get roughly equal punishment. This will utilize the limited phaser arcs of the older ships and give them a bigger chance of surviving. For more advanced ships, put them in a cone with a War Galaxy, Sovereign, or a Prometheus at the tip and lesser advanced ships like Ambassadors at the fringes. Stab the enemy wall with these and then have them do a 180 spin after they penetrate to kill any ships left in the middle of the cone. Use the ships like the Defiant to harass the blind spots of the enemy, like I said the BoPs should.

These are just some ideas that have been floating around in my head for a while...

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-07-12 12:47am

Since most ST captains don't know shit about tactics or maneuvering, the moving wall formation seems good.

Have to be a fairly widely spaced wall the way DS9 showed shiphandeling in a fleet setting.

The problem with this is that, as far as I know, Starfleet vessels show little in the way of systems designed to coordinate tactics among multiple vessels. The Enterprise was the flagship of the fleet in TNG, but showed no particular facilities for an Admiral to command a fleet from it, though I suppose the secondary bridge could serve as such.

Another problem of note is that fleet CO's are often acting captains of their flagships as well (at least it seems that way). This is a very bad idea when the shit hits the fan with really large fleets, as fighting the flagship as well as correlateing the actions of the large fleet at the same time is bound to be a major pain.

This is also a good explanation as to the lack of large scale formations and fine coordination of Federation ships during battle. The Flag can't devote 100% of his attention to the battle's tactics and stratdigy, so large scale formations and fine coordination aren't even attempted.

Akiras and War Nebulas would work well together as fire support ships

Agreed. Pity they have such short ranged fire support weapons though.

Defiants working together in packs with Steamrunners and Sabres would also make for good formations.

Also agreed.

For more advanced ships, put them in a cone with a War Galaxy, Sovereign, or a Prometheus at the tip and lesser advanced ships like Ambassadors at the fringes. Stab the enemy wall with these and then have them do a 180 spin after they penetrate to kill any ships left in the middle of the cone.

Given canon ranges most battles are fought at, having your formation specifically designed for penetration of the enemy fleet body is a good idea. It happens anyhow, so best to be in a position to exploit it to your advantage.

Swarm the enemy formations with BoPs that stay in the ship's blind spots (luckily, the blind spot on wallowing Fed ships and Romulan designs are easier to exploit than their own blind spots.)

Most Fed ships blind spots are quite small to stay in while manuvering at speed, and a competently fought Fed Fleet wouldn't let the BoPs stay there unapposed for long. But I do agree that if the BoPs can get there, it's the best place for them to be.

Use their cloaks to penetrate an enemy wall formation and then open up with everything they got. If they're outnumbered, they should fire everything and then return to cloak while speeding away from their location as fast as possible. Warbirds should work in small groups to prevent ships from exploiting their blind spot. At least half of their fleet should be cloaked at all times to give misleading numbers and confusion.

Agreed to a point. constantly cloaking and decloaking would leave quite a few ships vulnerable, especially when they do it close in.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-07-12 01:55am

Given canon ranges most battles are fought at, having your formation specifically designed for penetration of the enemy fleet body is a good idea. It happens anyhow, so best to be in a position to exploit it to your advantage.

That's what I was thinking. They should make better use of their phaser arcs.

Most Fed ships blind spots are quite small to stay in while manuvering at speed, and a competently fought Fed Fleet wouldn't let the BoPs stay there unapposed for long. But I do agree that if the BoPs can get there, it's the best place for them to be.

Well of course, which is why they are to be encircled.

Agreed to a point. constantly cloaking and decloaking would leave quite a few ships vulnerable, especially when they do it close in.

Well I'm hoping that the Romulan commander would think to decloak behind the target ship instead of in front or to the side.

Equinox2003 · Post by **Equinox2003** » 2003-07-12 02:36am

I also think that the moving wall formation would be the best idea.
Based on the aformentioned lack of experience by most captains.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-07-12 12:29pm

Basically, you anchor the fleet around the larger ships (ie. Galaxies, Nebulas, etc.), with smaller ships given more freedom to maneuver. Smaller ships, like Sabres and Defiant classes, should engage targets at the edges of enemy formations, and pick off targets of opportunity, while the largest vessels exchange fire at longer ranges and lower relative velocities.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-07-12 01:49pm

Wasn't it already established that in space combat fleet formations are useless?

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-07-12 03:21pm

kojikun wrote:Wasn't it already established that in space combat fleet formations are useless?

...what?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-07-12 03:36pm

kojikun wrote:Wasn't it already established that in space combat fleet formations are useless?

Only when the range at which starships can effectively use their weapons against another starship is far greater than the size of the ships themselves.

Supreme_Warlord · Post by **Supreme_Warlord** » 2003-07-14 10:43am

Master of Ossus wrote:
kojikun wrote:Wasn't it already established that in space combat fleet formations are useless?
Only when the range at which starships can effectively use their weapons against another starship is far greater than the size of the ships themselves.

MOO, could you please provide an explanation of why this is the case please. And forgive me if I am missing the blindingly obvious.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-07-14 11:39am

Supreme_Warlord wrote: MOO, could you please provide an explanation of why this is the case please. And forgive me if I am missing the blindingly obvious.

If ships can only fire a short distance (we'll say, for the sake of argument, that they can fire their own length, but no further), then the formation is actually very important because you can protect vulnerable or damaged ships while sending your own best combat ships to the front line. Your smaller ships can hammer away at opposing ships before escaping out of range, etc. If such a situation exists, and you set up a formation but your opponent doesn't, then you can almost dictate which ships are fired upon when by the enemy, and can pick apart his formation by winning localized victories and then retreating behind larger ships.

However, if the range of your weapons is significantly further (say that you can fire across a solar system), then the fleet formations become almost useless. Ships in the back of a formation can still be engaged by the enemy, and can engage the enemy almost simultaneously. It becomes much more difficult to protect vulnerable ships while still allowing them to support the front lines, and smaller ships will not really be able to engage a target before retreating out of range.

For this reason, modern naval ships have little regard to formation, even though back in the days of Nelson and Drake formations actually made a difference in how battles were fought.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-07-14 12:27pm

Well considering that combat in ST happens are realitively close range and that the abilities of ST ships differ largly, I would propose the following.

Formations should be grouping in waves, though those wave could be staggered on both axis's to take into account depth. Each wave should consist of individual battle groups that are under the command of the wave commander.

Each battle group should be formed according to function and mission. In example, the center of the line battle groups would be formed of heavy ships while flanking groups would consist of destroyers or other support ships.

Each wave could be created with mission specific ships as well. Each to represent various phases of an attack.

An example of my proposed order of battle for SF agains a Dominion type foe;

First wave. Center battle group(s) consisting of heavy torpedo laddened ships (Nebula) with an escort of medium ships (Intrepid). On the flanks, escorting battle groups(three times as many as the center groups) that consist of rapid strike vessels (Steamrunners, Norways, Sabers, Defients). Basicly, one (or more) group of heavy hitters escorted and protected by light cruisers with fast groups of destroyers or frigates on the flanks to attack target of oppertunity created by the torpedo ships.

Second wave. Following up with the first wave, the second would be of simular construction but with perhaps with more modern or capable ships and/or captains. Akiras for the center groups and Ambassadors for escort. Simular flanking assignments with Sabers and Defients and Steamrunners to attack targets of oppertunity.

The first two waves are to break up the enemy formations with torpedo attacks and exploit those breaks with quick strikes with the escorts, notice that while heavy ships are present in the first two waves, a majority are smaller vessels.

The third wave. Heavy formations of Galaxys and Soveriegns supported by escorts of light cruisers (Intrepids, Ambassadors, remaining Nebulas, remaining Akiras) with flanking escorts of larger frigates (New Orleans, Steamrunner, Prometheus if applicable). This wave punches through any holes created by the first two waves and attempts to roll back through the enemy formation and kill the Command and Control of the enemy fleet.

Fourth wave. Simular to Thrid wave with simular missions. Probably slightly less capable ships and captains than the third wave.

Fifth wave. If applicable, this wave is the reserves. A hodepode of various ships groups in mission specific battle groups that could be sent as a whole wave or as individual battle groups to shore up other waves. Support craft would also be present in this wave such as hospital ships, scouts and ECM vessels.

Note, the key to this is flexability. Each wave is not directly infront of the other. They can support each other as needed and if needed skip a wave and send them in any order as per the wishes of the Fleet Commander. Also, as noted earlier, a dedicated Fleet Commander that is not also a Captain of a vessel needs to be implamented and put in a Command and Control room that is not the bridge.