No Germans In Star Trek?!

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-01-18 08:18pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:But who will play the role of the French?
The bajorans?
I don't think they're that good at surrendering. My bet is on the Vulcans: haughty, arrogant, full of a sense of cultural and moral superiority, and I have a feeling they'd be rushing to raise the white flag in the event that Vulcan came under threat.

Do Vulcans take showers? If they do, then they're not very French to me.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-01-19 12:48pm

beyond hope wrote:It does make me seriously wonder: are there any ethnic or religious groups we've *never* seen represented on Star Trek? (I mention religious groups not because there seem to be many left in the Federation, but because to my recollection I've never seen a single Jewish character on Star Trek- there seems to be a lack of consensus as to whether they're an ethnic or religious group.)

Kirk was Jewish. In one of the books he wrote with the Gar-Stevens he married his Klingon-romulan hybrid bride. In the wedding they mixed Klingon and Jewish wedding cermnonies. Quaffing blood wine then stamping on the glass.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-19 02:36pm

Really? Shatner is of Jewish heritage in real life (so is Nimoy). ; )

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-19 02:43pm

Now that I think about it, in the entire series run of TNG, I never notice a specific mention of any modern earth religion, except Hinduism (Data's Day, he mentions a Hindu ritual.. but it may not be a practioner but somebody doing it for academic purposes...) though occasionaly you get a taste of "New Age" type stuff from Troi or somebody else.

In TOS I recall references to pagan religions and Christianity, although it wasn't by Starfleet personel or implied that they believed it, just what some aliens believed (and usually shown to be superstition or hypocritical).

Then again, there is the hodge-podge "Native American" religion mentioned in TNG and then picked up by Voyager. Now that I've started watching Voyager in earnest (starting from the beginning) it seems to be the most earth-religion friendly Trek yet... though they still seem to follow the old "your gods are just really advanced aliens and miracles are just really advanced technology" angle that's been part of Trek since the beginning plus the New Age spin on it (ie: your personal god.. no institutions or clergy and traditions aren't set in stone).

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-01-19 02:47pm

neoolong wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote: The bajorans?
I don't think they're that good at surrendering. My bet is on the Vulcans: haughty, arrogant, full of a sense of cultural and moral superiority, and I have a feeling they'd be rushing to raise the white flag in the event that Vulcan came under threat.
Don't forget, the Romulans figured they could take over Vulcan with 3000 troops. Size that to a country and it's pretty equivalent to France.

Actually, I had always gotten the impression that the Vulcans would be the Japanese; they're ethnocentric while staying just shy of being obviously racist.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-01-19 02:49pm

Kurgan wrote:Now that I think about it, in the entire series run of TNG, I never notice a specific mention of any modern earth religion, except Hinduism (Data's Day, he mentions a Hindu ritual.. but it may not be a practioner but somebody doing it for academic purposes...) though occasionaly you get a taste of "New Age" type stuff from Troi or somebody else.

In TOS I recall references to pagan religions and Christianity, although it wasn't by Starfleet personel or implied that they believed it, just what some aliens believed (and usually shown to be superstition or hypocritical).

Then again, there is the hodge-podge "Native American" religion mentioned in TNG and then picked up by Voyager. Now that I've started watching Voyager in earnest (starting from the beginning) it seems to be the most earth-religion friendly Trek yet... though they still seem to follow the old "your gods are just really advanced aliens and miracles are just really advanced technology" angle that's been part of Trek since the beginning plus the New Age spin on it (ie: your personal god.. no institutions or clergy and traditions aren't set in stone).

Actually, there was an episode that had an ending designed to make the Christians happy (but only if they didn't think about it) -- in "Bread and Circuses", they had some "sun-worshippers", and at the end, Uhura says something like, "They weren't talking about the sun-- they were talking about the son of God." Something along those lines.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-19 03:06pm

Yes, I remember that one, and it gets certain trekkies all pissy (the ones who subscribe to the "Federation dogma replaces religion and its good" philosophy). heh

I see the philosophy of Star Trek as a "clash of civilizations" thought experiment, more than anything, in space. ; )

Anyway, I think of the Vulcans as being based on the (Western romantic impression of them anyway) of the ancient Greeks...

Principled, stoic, philosophical, using reason and logic to understand the world, but at the expense of emotion.

Their opposite, the Romulans, are like the Romans, the "other" great romanticized civilization by Western thinkers in the better part of the last few centuries.

Powerful and intelligent like their cousins (the Romans conciously tried to give the impression they were imitating the better part of Greek civilization as well), but also warlike, corrupt, strict (in a more brutal way), etc. but in a calm, cool, and collected way compared to the Klingons.

The Klingons were the Mongol hoards of Genghis Khan, with overtones of the Soviet Union at their worst (in terms of the whole "Cold War" analogy).

The Federation is a mix of the "best" of the "civilized" cultures, the Greeks (Vulcans) are adopted and absorbed, but taught a thing or two about using emotions wisely, etc.

The Feddies are a comglomeration of European/American idealized western "socialism" (as opposed to the tarnished "Communism" of the Soviet Union under guys like Stalin).. this seen moreso in TNG. Aggressive, but for a "good cause" (TOS) and diplomatic.. always quicker to win with words or leading by example than by outright violence (but if provoked, they fight and win, because they've the will for it). They're compassionate, committed to their ideals and collective.. a family where everybody cares for their own and are all to eager to welcome others in, so long as they adopt their creed.

The whole Cardassian/Bajoran relationship makes me think of Israel/Palestine (and its middle eastern neighbors), though its not a perfect analogy, I'll say it probably reflects the writer/producers impression of that situation at the time (1990's).

Ferengi are the "yankee traders" .. a hyperbolized vision of Western capitalists from the past and present. If Bill Gates lived in the Trek universe, he and Steve Ballmer would be Ferengi. <--- seen as scum by the socialist centered universe of the federation of course. laughable, if they weren't so sneaky and dirty. After TNG, they're seen as mostly harmless (more likely to cheat you out of your latinum than to blow up your ship... like they might do in TNG).

The Borg I suppose are a nightmare vision of what Communism is capable of (aggressive collectivisation without "diversity".. committed to strict conformity and conquest).. basically the Soviet Union at its worst, with overtones of Nazism (the whole "master race" anology works somewhat.. genetic experiments on humans, etc notice how "white" everyone becomes when assimilated.. they're bald like neo-nazis, etc).

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-19 03:10pm

Included in that is the Federation's touchy-feeling, artsy-fartsy, get-in-touch-with-your-feelings, left liberal stuff from America and Europe in recent decades.. feminism, "cultural diversity," new age-self help religion (if it exists at all), gun control, the whole nine yards.

Raoul Duke, Jr. · Post by **Raoul Duke, Jr.** » 2003-01-19 03:37pm

God damn, man! That's probably the best single-sitting run-down of the Trek species I've ever seen!

Baron Mordo · Post by **Baron Mordo** » 2003-01-19 05:33pm

Kurgan wrote: The whole Cardassian/Bajoran relationship makes me think of Israel/Palestine (and its middle eastern neighbors), though its not a perfect analogy, I'll say it probably reflects the writer/producers impression of that situation at the time (1990's).

Actually I think the Bajorans are an analogy of the Slavs during and after the occupations of the Soviet Union.

Seggybop · Post by **Seggybop** » 2003-01-19 05:35pm

I don't think the ST writers are smart enough to think of having each race associated with a country, you're giving them too much credit

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-20 11:34am

It could refer to any "civil war" between an occupying force and a somewhat weaker, "rebel" force. But I figured they were referring to that one because it is well known in the west, and though usually in the west its the stronger side that everyone takes for granted as being right (the Israelis) tensions were starting to cool off at one point, with all of those peace talks and cease fires.. they probably felt it was "safe" to talk about.

That's my theory, and I know some other fans see that as being more likely. It's just a theory, you'd have to ask them what they REALLY thought I suppose, to get the correct answer. ; )

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-20 11:43am

As far as associating them with a country, I think the fact that Earth, united under one english speaking "soft" (idealized) socialist regime based on western values (minus capitalism and religion of course) nudges itself pretty close to United States/Canada and the European Union as envisioned by liberals.

The whole "cold war" analogy works because (and this isn't my original idea) it was really tense during Star Trek's inception (late 60's) and was starting to cool off a bit in the late 80's (glasnost, and all that.. when TNG put forth that the Klingons weren't 100% evil and could be dealt with peacefully). In the West, the (at least potentialy socialist, according to American left liberals) United States were the good guys, and the bad guys were the Soviets in Russia (because they took communism "too far" and perverted those ideals? you'll hear that in a lot of socialist apologetics literature.. if it wasn't for a few bad leaders like Stalin, the Soviet Union wasn't so bad).

Both groups (feddie and klingon) are basically Imperialists, but the good guys do it through diplomacy, and peaceful persuasion.. whereas the bad guys do it through threats and military conquest. I see basically the idea of the "communist bad guys" label being transfered from the Klingons to to the Borg (since their introduction).. and perhaps later to the Dominion (though I haven't seen enough of DS9 to be sure.. the Dominion seem more like Nazis than Soviets to me, with their emphasis on a master race, and "perfect soldiers" and all that).

Star Trek has a habit of introducing a villian species, then softening them up and making them weak and/or Federation buddies.. so then they introduce another bad guy race to fill the void for dramatic purposes. But considering the Soviets were the "bad guys" for upwards of 50 years in the West, it seems like they'd be prime candidates, even without the other similarites.

And I know you were just being faceitious. ; )

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-20 11:44am

The biggest piece of evidence that Klingons = Soviets is probably ST 6.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-20 11:49am

Note also how the Federation is portrayed as being racially and culturally "diverse" (open, complex, tolerant) whereas most of the alien races are portrayed as being monocultural and homogenious (weighted down by tradition, set in their ways, intolerant)... much like the Western impression of the various nations I mentioned above.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-01-20 12:38pm

Kurgan wrote:Note also how the Federation is portrayed as being racially and culturally "diverse" (open, complex, tolerant) whereas most of the alien races are portrayed as being monocultural and homogenious (weighted down by tradition, set in their ways, intolerant)... much like the Western impression of the various nations I mentioned above.

The interesting thing about that is that in DS9, this gradually changed. In many episodes, the terms "Humans" and "Federation" were used almost interchangeably, by those within and without. The Federation went from being a supposedly diverse collection of species to a human-centric organization in which minorities were tolerated: not at all the same thing.

AWACS · Post by **AWACS** » 2003-01-20 12:56pm

And now, I present:

The Bismark

http://www.geocities.com/accaircraft/bismark2.txt

[In-line image removed and replaced with link because of Nazi swastika; please change it to a pre-Nazi German emblem- DW]

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-01-20 01:38pm

neoolong wrote:The Germans have their own vessels, that, gasp, actually work properly. That's why they choose not to go onboard any Federation starship.

Vurstsprung durst shipnick!

or something along the lines of....my german is not very good...forgive me.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-01-20 01:50pm

Coaan wrote:
neoolong wrote:The Germans have their own vessels, that, gasp, actually work properly. That's why they choose not to go onboard any Federation starship.
Vurstsprung durst shipnick!

or something along the lines of....my german is not very good...forgive me.

And Altavista Babel Fish gives us "Vurstsprung thirst shipnick."

So what is it supposed to mean?

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-01-20 01:58pm

Ever seen the volkswagon ad's?
(it was either that or Audi...probably Audi)

but they always ended with Vurstsprung Dursk technik

(Once again however you spell it...I think it's something like superior german cars or something like that)

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-01-20 02:04pm

Coaan wrote:Ever seen the volkswagon ad's?
(it was either that or Audi...probably Audi)

None that I can remember.

but they always ended with Vurstsprung Dursk technik

(Once again however you spell it...I think it's something like superior german cars or something like that)

Ok.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-20 03:25pm

How about a non-nazi swastika? ; )

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-20 03:45pm

Coaan wrote:
neoolong wrote:The Germans have their own vessels, that, gasp, actually work properly. That's why they choose not to go onboard any Federation starship.
Vurstsprung durst shipnick!

or something along the lines of....my german is not very good...forgive me.

Vorsprung durch Technik.

Hitch Hiker · Post by **Hitch Hiker** » 2003-01-20 04:07pm

Yes all this is very well. but has any one stoped to notice how well everyone seems to get along without the Germans, French or italians. and also i have official info as to the fact that Volvo are a certified Swedish firm although the island they work on does sound German "Hisingen island factory"

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-01-20 04:38pm

Hitch Hiker wrote:Yes all this is very well. but has any one stoped to notice how well everyone seems to get along without the Germans, French or italians. and also i have official info as to the fact that Volvo are a certified Swedish firm although the island they work on does sound German "Hisingen island factory"

Actually Volvo is kinda owned by Ford now.