Star Trek HtH fights

[CaptainChewbacca]

Interesting. According to Memory Alpha, Bat'leths only appeared as a part of the story in FOUR episodes of TNG, and not until season 5. Before that, Worf just used the more traditional d'k tahg dagger, which looked like a sai but with bladed edges.

[open_sketchbook]

The thing was probably some ceremonial blade for dueling that was deliberately handicapped in design to encourage a specific form of fighting or something, which later was adopted as a combat weapon by inexperienced Klingon warriors as being a "more honorable way of fighting". Since there is generally more gunplay and most targets don't have blades to duel back with, Worf and other Klingons generally don't notice the disadvantage in their weapon of choice, providing they don't get shot charging in, that is.

[Stofsk]

I recal in TOS there was some episode with a throwaway line that Klingons were known throughout the quadrant to be excellent 'swordsmen', but I think they had rather regular swords in that episode.

I don't recall any such line. You may be talking about "Day of the Dove" where Kang and Kirk face off against each other on the Enterprise due to the malevolent presence of that alien being who feeds off of hatred and anger.

It's been awhile since I've seen that episode so my memory could be fuzzy.

[Aaron]

I don't recall any such line. You may be talking about "Day of the Dove" where Kang and Kirk face off against each other on the Enterprise due to the malevolent presence of that alien being who feeds off of hatred and anger.

It's been awhile since I've seen that episode so my memory could be fuzzy.

IIRC Spock tells Kirk that the Klingon's had maintained a "duelling tradition" that gave them an advantage in the situation. But that was it, it wasn't spun as them being elite swordsmen or anything.

[Stofsk]

I don't recall any such line. You may be talking about "Day of the Dove" where Kang and Kirk face off against each other on the Enterprise due to the malevolent presence of that alien being who feeds off of hatred and anger.

It's been awhile since I've seen that episode so my memory could be fuzzy.

IIRC Spock tells Kirk that the Klingon's had maintained a "duelling tradition" that gave them an advantage in the situation. But that was it, it wasn't spun as them being elite swordsmen or anything.

Ah, you're right! I remember it now. Yeah, just because you maintain a duelling tradition doesn't make you an excellent swordsman. But I suppose it helps.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I don't recall any such line. You may be talking about "Day of the Dove" where Kang and Kirk face off against each other on the Enterprise due to the malevolent presence of that alien being who feeds off of hatred and anger.

It's been awhile since I've seen that episode so my memory could be fuzzy.

IIRC Spock tells Kirk that the Klingon's had maintained a "duelling tradition" that gave them an advantage in the situation. But that was it, it wasn't spun as them being elite swordsmen or anything.

Ah, you're right! I remember it now. Yeah, just because you maintain a duelling tradition doesn't make you an excellent swordsman. But I suppose it helps.

Guess I misremembered it. Of course, the average member of a dueling society will probably have better skill than the average member of a NON-dueling society.

[open_sketchbook]

I've been watching through Enterprise season three, and the poor hand-to-hand fighting of the other series is pretty much absent here. In fact, the scene I just watched featured some pretty brutal, fast-paced hand to hand training that looks quite good on-screen, and a few episodes ago there was a great beatdown of an alien soldier by a MAKO with an electrical baton. Considering the second season had some pretty groan-worthy fighting, I think that it was a conscious effort to avert it, which shows that with time and budget good Trek fights are possible and have, in fact, happened. I just think it might have taken them that long to notice how bad the fights looked.

I know everyone here hates Enterprise and I'm the only person in the entire world that likes it, but one of the things I like about it is that, unlike Voyager, Enterprise really did work to fix their mistakes and improve and every season showed it more and more. Season 1 started with a lack of Unnecessary Combat Rolls and a tendency to take cover and it only got better from there, in my opinion.

[Emperor of Mankind]

I noted the pretty bad hand-to-hand fighting while watching a re-run of Voyager (I know, I know). It was that pon'farr episode with Vorik and B'Elanna, when she fought him. I liked the way the actress played B'Elanna accepting the challenge and all, but the fight was just embarrasingly bad. It wasn't convincing at all, as both of them were clearly throwing punches which didn't have the barest shred of force behind them.

And I agree about some of the fights in Way of the Warrior. A little more thought put into them would've certainly been nice. I certainly didn't buy Kira beating up a Klingon like that after she'd already been stabbed in the guy. Setting aside a bit extra money to make the fights look better and more realistic would've certainly gone a long way. They didn't have a whole lot of fights, so longterm, it probably wouldn't have cost very much (as opposed to a show like Buffy or Alias).

[Themightytom]

some of the TOS eps were actually pretty good to watch, there was a lot judo, especially in the first season, which makes sense if EVERY alien has super human strength. Kahn was doing some crazy wierd breathing things while his crew woke up, I think it was supposed to be Tai Chi. he did a Buddha palm exercise before he opened the door to his quarters...

TNG and on there were a hell of a lot of open palm strikes to Aliens with bony faces, I would have been overjoyed to see a knee break or a wrist lock in there somewhere. I think they threw out the idea of current martial arts because they felt they were out of place in a futuristic setting...

you know because kung Fu hasn't been around for thousands of years so would vanish over the next 300...

I wouldd avhe loved to ahve seen a Vulcan martial art. A fighting style completely developed logically would be interesting, The Klingons would have done a berserker style agressive attack... there was wasted potential

[Darth Wong]

some of the TOS eps were actually pretty good to watch, there was a lot judo, especially in the first season, which makes sense if EVERY alien has super human strength. Kahn was doing some crazy wierd breathing things while his crew woke up, I think it was supposed to be Tai Chi. he did a Buddha palm exercise before he opened the door to his quarters...

Khan was great. So campy, that episode is one of my favourites. But that bit about the door was really stupid. One could only force open a sliding door through hand friction alone if it's not locked in place at all. And come on, why did Kirk let him read the entire technical manuals of his military vessel? That episode is best enjoyed as camp, and not taken seriously. Especially during the fight at the end when the stuntman doesn't look even remotely similar to Will Shatner.

TNG and on there were a hell of a lot of open palm strikes to Aliens with bony faces, I would have been overjoyed to see a knee break or a wrist lock in there somewhere. I think they threw out the idea of current martial arts because they felt they were out of place in a futuristic setting...

you know because kung Fu hasn't been around for thousands of years so would vanish over the next 300...

I wouldd avhe loved to ahve seen a Vulcan martial art. A fighting style completely developed logically would be interesting, The Klingons would have done a berserker style agressive attack... there was wasted potential

I would have loved to see Vulcans actually act logical. They never really did; their whole society is seriously fucked up and full of bizarro traditions that make no sense. The whole "Amok Time" episode made them look like a bunch of complete nutjobs.

[Themightytom]

Khan was great. So campy, that episode is one of my favourites. But that bit about the door was really stupid. One could only force open a sliding door through hand friction alone if it's not locked in place at all. And come on, why did Kirk let him read the entire technical manuals of his military vessel? That episode is best enjoyed as camp, and not taken seriously. Especially during the fight at the end when the stuntman doesn't look even remotely similar to Will Shatner.

Well OBVIOUSLY Kahn was using his "Chi" to open the door. The same Chi he uses to seduce his ladies, lead his men and sell cars with Rich Corinthian leatherrrrr.

[Darksider]

ok, so I was watching DS9's "Apocalypse Rising" to try and see if the swordfighting between worf and gowron looked any better (It doesn't) and I noticed something else.

When they all have to dress up as klingons to infiltrate Quo'nos, worf makes a fuss over the fact that no one is acting like klingons. Sisko hits him, and bares his fake teeth. All in all, it seems like sisko is the only one who makes a convincing klingon. After wards, he says he will "miss the fangs."

What the fuck? The crew has to dress up and pretend to be a bunch of uncivilized klingon savages and the only one who really gets into is is the black guy?

Exactly what kind of message were they trying to send with this one?

[The Romulan Republic]

ok, so I was watching DS9's "Apocalypse Rising" to try and see if the swordfighting between worf and gowron looked any better (It doesn't) and I noticed something else.

When they all have to dress up as klingons to infiltrate Quo'nos, worf makes a fuss over the fact that no one is acting like klingons. Sisko hits him, and bares his fake teeth. All in all, it seems like sisko is the only one who makes a convincing klingon. After wards, he says he will "miss the fangs."

What the fuck? The crew has to dress up and pretend to be a bunch of uncivilized klingon savages and the only one who really gets into is is the black guy?

Exactly what kind of message were they trying to send with this one?

I don't know, but based on the above I wouldn't assume racism, at least not unless there's a history of racist material originating from those particular writers. Been a while since I watched the episode, though, so I can't say for sure.

Sisko's always been a bit more militant than most Trek captains, hasn't he? And he's also the captain, so one would expect him to take the lead and set an example, whatever that entails.

[Batman]

While I see where one could perceive a racism angle from a US PoV I seriously doubt they were going for anything other than 'It'll make Sisko look fierce'. He's the captain, and the captain has to be a Tough Guy.

[Emperor of Mankind]

Yeah, I don't see anything racist about that. Rather the opposite, as Worf was chiding them for completely failing at doing the job at hand (a shortcoming which could get them killed on the mission), whereas Sisko was the only one among them who was actually doing his job right. So in this case, the black guy was the most competent of the bunch (As well as being the most bad-ass. You see this, again, in Way of the Warrior when Klingons board ops. At the end of the fighting, the only ones still left standing are Sisko, Dax, and Worf).

[Themightytom]

Yeah, I don't see anything racist about that. Rather the opposite, as Worf was chiding them for completely failing at doing the job at hand (a shortcoming which could get them killed on the mission), whereas Sisko was the only one among them who was actually doing his job right. So in this case, the black guy was the most competent of the bunch (As well as being the most bad-ass. You see this, again, in Way of the Warrior when Klingons board ops. At the end of the fighting, the only ones still left standing are Sisko, Dax, and Worf).

Right, are we gonna get pissed that Michael Dorn was cast as Worf and HE's Black? Siskos an athlete on a team of nerds and the sulky nerd just challenged him. he Ironically reacted the way a klingon captain would and bitch slapped him

[Stofsk]

There are better reasons to hate that goddamn episode than accusing the writers of racism. Try accusing the writers of stupidity first.

[Simon_Jester]

I would have loved to see Vulcans actually act logical. They never really did; their whole society is seriously fucked up and full of bizarro traditions that make no sense. The whole "Amok Time" episode made them look like a bunch of complete nutjobs.

I tend to interpret the "illogical Vulcan" problem as:

Vulcans aren't a logical species; they're a species of violent semisavages who spend most of their life meditating and studying philosophy in an attempt to control their own nuttiness. The closest analogy isn't a calm, collected, rational human; it's a half-crazed human with roiling emotions who's trying to keep up a calm, collected facade.

A man who's always self-conscious about the need to control his emotions on a moment by moment basis may seem levelheaded and logical to a casual observer. But he's probably not going to act logically, because there's a huge emotional minefield in his head that blocks him from taking certain actions. So he winds up making stupid mistakes because he's too afraid of giving in to his emotions to do the right thing half the time.

I infer that the Vulcan word translated as "logical" doesn't mean exactly the same thing as "logical," it just means "not acting like a savage." The fact that someone is not acting like a savage does not mean that they are acting logically.

[AirshipFanboy]

^

I don't buy that "Vulcans are inherently violent and they need their philosophy of logic to keep their emotions under control."

When we see Vulcanoids who don't suppress their emotions, they aren't frothing psychopaths. The Romulans are usually quite collected, the members of the proto-Vulcan culture in TNG: Who Watches the Watchers seemed rather normal, as did the Vulcan heretics who chose not to suppress their emotions in ENT: Fusion.

True, when mainstream Vulcans drop their emotional suppression they can become quite violent, but I a better explanation is sociological. Vulcans are raised believing that they must suppress their emotions to stay non-violent. This expectation creates a self-fulfilling prophecy; a Vulcan who drops her guard expects herself to become violent, and thus is more likely to.

An alternate explanation is that the emotional suppression itself leads to violence - because mainstream Vulcans suppress their anger, when their control breaks they behave violently.

[Simon_Jester]

I could nitpick about the gap between the "violent semisavages" I'm thinking of and the "frothing psychopaths" you're thinking of, but you definitely have a point.

[AirshipFanboy]

Okay, I exaggerated a bit. But you get the idea.

[Darth Wong]

Humans are violent semi-savages too. The Rwandan genocide comes to mind.

[Simon_Jester]

Humans are violent semi-savages too. The Rwandan genocide comes to mind.

Yes, but we don't have to spend our whole life studying philosophy and practicing Zen meditation to keep it under control. We certainly have the ability to act stupid and evil in crowds, but it isn't a guaranteed thing that nearly all untrained humans fall prey to. We don't have Rwandan genocides happening everywhere every fifty years or so, and the places they do happen are the places where conditions are fucked up enough to put exceptional strain on the human psyche.*

My feeling is that the Vulcan species is somewhat more prone to that kind of craziness (maybe not even violent insanity, now that I think about it, maybe just collective foolishness). So all successful Vulcan cultures wind up having to find some way to avoid winding up in serious "extraordinary popular delusions and the madness of crowds" territory. The mainstream homeworld Vulcans do it with the aforesaid philosophy and Zen meditation. The Romulans do it by enforcing totalitarian social control, probably with a healthy dose of Roman-style "paterfamilias, fall on your sword when disgraced" honor codes.

In that case, most of the Vulcan/Romulan control is directed inward at the question of "how can I not be a shamefully irrational fool?" rather than outward at the question "what is the perfectly logical decision an ideal philosophy student would make?"

At the very least, something like that would help to explain why they talk about being "logical" all the time when they don't consistently behave logically. What they call "logical" is only tangentially related to what we call "logical," and ought to be translated as "not-illogical" or "resistant to the madness of crowds." But it gets translated as "logical" for some reason (possibly Vulcans trying to convince us that it's a good idea to respect them).

And if we go for the gentler "madness of crowds" interpretation, individual Vulcans without tight control might seem quite pleasant to the casual observer... just as the same guy who would blow his life savings on the Dutch tulip bubble seems like a solid, respectable merchant the week before the bubble starts.
_________

*Rwanda was an overpopulated hellhole, and I've heard it suggested** that a big part of the reason for the violence was a sort of perverted grassroots issue. Lots of people were so critically short of land to raise food that any opportunity to redistribute land was desirable, even when it meant Hutu-on-Hutu violence in areas with few or no Tutsis.
**See the bibliography of Jared Diamond's book Collapse for primary sources on this.

[Darth Wong]

Humans are violent semi-savages too. The Rwandan genocide comes to mind.

Yes, but we don't have to spend our whole life studying philosophy and practicing Zen meditation to keep it under control.

We don't know that Vulcans really have to do that either. All we have are the assurances of their religious order, which sound suspiciously similar to the assurances of born-again Christians that we would all be depraved violent rapacious kiddy-fiddler sociopaths without God.

[Elfdart]

Khan was great. So campy, that episode is one of my favourites. But that bit about the door was really stupid. One could only force open a sliding door through hand friction alone if it's not locked in place at all. And come on, why did Kirk let him read the entire technical manuals of his military vessel? That episode is best enjoyed as camp, and not taken seriously. Especially during the fight at the end when the stuntman doesn't look even remotely similar to Will Shatner.

What made the OS great was the fact that it was almost as campy as Batman. If only they had brought in Julie Newmar more than once, and had the word "POW!" flash across the screen when someone got punched...

Come to think of it, the donnybrooks in Batman are more believable than any fistfight in Star Trek.

I would have loved to see Vulcans actually act logical. They never really did; their whole society is seriously fucked up and full of bizarro traditions that make no sense. The whole "Amok Time" episode made them look like a bunch of complete nutjobs.

Case in point: the fight in Amok Time is so bad it's brilliant. Everything from the ridiculous choreography to the over-the-top music -I love every minute of it!





I think that episode is the reason why Trekkies go without getting laid for years at a time -they're just emulating their hero, Mr. Spock!