Janeway and the Caretaker array

[Solauren]

I'm sure offering to hand Neelix over to Jabin would have gone a long way towards showing good faith.

After all, it was apparent that Neelix was not liked by Jabin's faction for various reasons (theft, and now kidnapping and assault come to mind).

I wouldn't be surprised if Neelix was the reason Jabin didn't want to negotiate. They showed they were just like him.

As for the trading of transporter technology being illegal; Yes, I know. YOu never heard of oh, LYING to the other guys to get what you want?

You know, once you had a few warships guarding the Array (and possibly have moved it over Occampa), you tell the Kazon to go away, before you send them into the middle of Borg territory?

[The Romulan Republic]

That was quick. Guess I have time to rattle off one more post before I leave.

I'm sure offering to hand Neelix over to Jabin would have gone a long way towards showing good faith.

After all, it was apparent that Neelix was not liked by Jabin's faction for various reasons (theft, and now kidnapping and assault come to mind).

I wouldn't be surprised if Neelix was the reason Jabin didn't want to negotiate. They showed they were just like him.

It might have, and it might not have. However, I will reiterate that the Kazon opened fire almost immediately. A summary of Jabin and Janeway's discussion reads more or less as follows (to roughly paraphrase):

Jabin: "Keep away from the Array."

Janeway: "Let us use it to go home."

Jabin: "No."

Janeway: "Can we discuss this?"

Jabin: "Fuck you" (opens fire).

Don't have time to look up the dialog word for word (I'll do that when I get back), but that's more or less how it went down.

This actually raises a different but interesting question, however: should Janeway have turned Neelix over to the Kazon? He was presumably a wanted criminal in their space, and he had not formally requested asylum. Shouldn't she have handed him over, in the name of not interfering with another society's laws?

As for the trading of transporter technology being illegal; Yes, I know. YOu never heard of oh, LYING to the other guys to get what you want?

You know, once you had a few warships guarding the Array (and possibly have moved it over Occampa), you tell the Kazon to go away, before you send them into the middle of Borg territory?

Starfleet might have sent a fleet to seize the Array (it would indeed have given them a massive advantage), but that doesn't mean they could have gotten their intact. You are presuming, with scant to no evidence, that Voyager could have whisked up Starfleet armada, using an unfamiliar and potentially dangerous alien tech. You are also presuming, with little or nothing to support it, that the Kazon could have been successfully negotiated with.

[Sonnenburg]

I don't think anyone's saying that there would be no possible way to justify it, just that the evidence as presented allows no way to justify it without conjecture that can easily be wrong, and still has no factor in Janeway's decision. And I believe it was likely forbidden to make it anything else than what we want for precisely the reason that this stupid choice is precisely what Jeri Taylor wanted - Janeway must make this great sacrifice of herself to show her nobility, and it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense. In addition, if Janeway was being driven off, why would she immediately destroy the array instead of seeing if she could outrace them? It would perfectly fit: bring over the explosives while you work on getting the array ready: if it looks like the Kazon are going to take it, you blow it, and if not, you set the fuse (or leave someone behind for the sacrifice) and go home. The decision by the writers was to make Janeway seem noble at the cost of making her look like an idiot.

[Simon_Jester]

That said, given the drift of this debate, I get the sense that her situation she was in was so fucked up in general that an officer who was capable and fully in command of their faculties would have wound up forced to do more or less the same thing.

So while she made a bad decision, the actual outcome wasn't necessarily different from a good decision would have been. That doesn't excuse the decision-making process she shows in her dialogue, because it's pretty clear that she wasn't being very rational about it and there's little evidence of any of this stuff having been thought through. But it does increase the chances of her escaping a court-martial, especially if the fleet has some ulterior motive to not cashier her.

[Kythnos]

I admit it has been a very long time since I saw this episode, any of my conclusions maybe off. Even if it lacked all other kind of weapons, which I think it is said it did in the episode, the Array had 2 very powerful "weapons" that could have been used to defend it from the Kazon.

First the Ship teleporter - even if the weapon did not damage the Kazon ships they could never bring their weapons in range (side befit of giving the Voyager crew valuable "practice" in using it)
How many Ships could any Kazon faction lose before it gets attacked by the others. I never remember seeing a Kazon ship that could stand solo against Voyager, it was only Janeway's refusal to fight that caused the ship top get beat on so often.

Second the Energy Pulse - could still be used as a weapon (although a very poor one)

But sadly the Show was not about holding a space station and it had to be longer than 2 hours, I doubt that the writers thought about anything else

[Patrick Degan]

That said, given the drift of this debate, I get the sense that her situation she was in was so fucked up in general that an officer who was capable and fully in command of their faculties would have wound up forced to do more or less the same thing.

So while she made a bad decision, the actual outcome wasn't necessarily different from a good decision would have been. That doesn't excuse the decision-making process she shows in her dialogue, because it's pretty clear that she wasn't being very rational about it and there's little evidence of any of this stuff having been thought through. But it does increase the chances of her escaping a court-martial, especially if the fleet has some ulterior motive to not cashier her.

Oh, she wouldn't be court-martialed for her decisionmnaking regarding the Array. No, not when there's already ample ground for court-martialing the stupid bitch for incompetence WRT losing her ship to a very obvious Kazon trap, for treason WRT her illegal alliance with the Borg, and for murder WRT her actions regarding Mr. Tuvix.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I always felt that after Janeway triumphantly returned to earth after her 'harrowing adventures' in the DQ, Starfleet was stuck. They certainly had grounds to court-martial her, and probably didn't want her anywhere NEAR a starship again, but she was a public hero so they made her an admiral in charge of a desk and a science-section somewhere and told her to quietly go away.

[Simon_Jester]

I always felt that after Janeway triumphantly returned to earth after her 'harrowing adventures' in the DQ, Starfleet was stuck. They certainly had grounds to court-martial her, and probably didn't want her anywhere NEAR a starship again, but she was a public hero so they made her an admiral in charge of a desk and a science-section somewhere and told her to quietly go away.

That would be my guess, too.

Remember that on a strategic level she got some pretty impressive results, including some interesting technology. Unless her and her crew's after action reports are outright dismissed, Voyager did a lot of damage to the Borg, too. So she's a public hero for a reason, even if anyone reading between the lines of her AAR can find plenty of reasons to blame her for various screwups and disasters that befell her command.

[tim31]

...and likely the most exciting thing she did after that was the day someone from dispatch asked her to forward on a message to CO, USS Enterprise. She even had the balls to 'interrupt' one of Starfleet's most distinguished captains(when he was finished speaking) just to milk the situation.

What I want to know is what they did with everyone else when they got back.

[Stofsk]

What I want to know is what they did with everyone else when they got back.

Really? You actually care about anyone from that goddamn show? If they had all jumped off a cliff like lemmings I couldn't have cared less. Janeway becoming Admiral before Picard was almost enough for me to walk up out of the cinema and leave Nemesis in disgust, but I troopered on, thinking that the worst of it was over. Boy, was I wrong.

[tim31]

I sure do! They explained what most everyone got up to after they got home, but what with the timeline-fucking I never found out what happened to Chakotay afterwards. Did he give it all away to become a couch bum? Maybe open a sports bar and spend half the day polishing glasses?

[Stofsk]

Maybe he got interviewed and told all the Federation journos what it was REALLY like working on Voyager, rubbishing everyone and everything.

[tim31]

And then the Fed gave him hush money, so he opened a sports bar.

But by night he fights crime.

Chris, if you want to start working on the concept art I'll start drafting a proposal to Paramount.

First though... Are we going to give the poor bastard a first(or even last) name?

[Stofsk]

And then the Fed gave him hush money, so he opened a sports bar.

But by night he fights crime.

But... there is no crime in the Federation!

Chris, if you want to start working on the concept art I'll start drafting a proposal to Paramount.

I don't think Paramount would be interested in the kind of concepts I have in mind.

First though... Are we going to give the poor bastard a first(or even last) name?

Chakotay Smith. Or Jones.

[tim31]

You're looking at it wrong. I have long chosen to view the utopian nonsense of the twenty-fourth century Federation as propoganda. Thus I submit, that in Miami(when Chakotay has his sports bar) crime is still an unacknowledged problem. I'm going to steal the 'cars still exist' element from the Abramsverse and give Chakotay a Plymouth Road Runner to get around in.

[Stofsk]

You're looking at it wrong. I have long chosen to view the utopian nonsense of the twenty-fourth century Federation as propoganda. Thus I submit, that in Miami(when Chakotay has his sports bar) crime is still an unacknowledged problem. I'm going to steal the 'cars still exist' element from the Abramsverse and give Chakotay a Plymouth Road Runner to get around in.

I'm sure this is a reference to something, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Are you talking about Magnum PI?

[Big Phil]

First though... Are we going to give the poor bastard a first(or even last) name?

Chakotay Smith. Or Jones.

He's supposed to be Mayan, I think. Chakotay Tortilla or Chakotay Chimichanga would therefore be in keeping with Star Trek's cultural sensitivity.

I always felt that after Janeway triumphantly returned to earth after her 'harrowing adventures' in the DQ, Starfleet was stuck. They certainly had grounds to court-martial her, and probably didn't want her anywhere NEAR a starship again, but she was a public hero so they made her an admiral in charge of a desk and a science-section somewhere and told her to quietly go away.

In real life, they don't generally promote incompetent scout ship captains to Admiral. That would be like promoting Captain Bligh to Admiral after he lost the Bounty. What really happens is you're essentially told "you might as well retire today because you'll never get promoted again" and people then retire with their pension. Even someone like Janeway returning as a "hero" doesn't justify the promotion. They could have given her a medal, left her a Captain, and put her in charge of a desk.

[Aaron]

In real life, they don't generally promote incompetent scout ship captains to Admiral. That would be like promoting Captain Bligh to Admiral after he lost the Bounty. What really happens is you're essentially told "you might as well retire today because you'll never get promoted again" and people then retire with their pension. Even someone like Janeway returning as a "hero" doesn't justify the promotion. They could have given her a medal, left her a Captain, and put her in charge of a desk.

Well I could see them giving her a star to pad out her pension (happens all the time in RL), but keeping her? Not at flag rank, perhaps as a Captain in some shit position. Mind you I never got why Voyager rated a full Captain anyways.

[Stark]

ST writers may not understand the concept of post Captain?

[Aaron]

ST writers may not understand the concept of post Captain?

Most likely, though I often wonder if the fact that she was the first lead female Captain had anything to do with it. Avoiding a possible shitstorm and all that.

[Batman]

In modern day Navies if memory serves the ship's CO is referred to as Captain even if his/her/its actual rank is actually lower and besides, there's no reason Starfleet has to follow modern day Navy rank structures. If memory serves Grissom's CO was a Captain too and she hardly was any more important or prestigious than VOY.

[Stark]

Welcome to 'post Captain' discussion lol?

It's possible Starfleet is doesn't have a modern rank distribution - being peacetime, maybe there are lots and lots of 25-year veterans who just semi-automatically get promoted to Captain and they have to do SOMETHING with them. In the show they imply different Captain-postings (ie different ships etc) have different career implications, so perhaps the number of ranking Captains is so high they discriminate based on what they've done.

[Darth Wong]

If Janeway was even vaguely intelligent, it would have occurred to her that if they had control of the array, they could use it to hurl attacking Kazon ships tens of thousands of light years away, thus granting themselves more time to decide what to do with it. It would also afford them an opportunity to test the system to make sure Tuvok is correct in his confidence about his ability to use it correctly.

[Batman]

I think one of the items under contention is wether or not VOY COULD get control of the Array in the time they had before Kazon reinforcements turned up?

[Stark]

So set a bomb, try to get it to work, and when they run out of time leave and pop it. Spending the xyz hours trying to get it working when their alternate plan is SPEND SEVENTY FUCKING YEARS GETTING HOME doesn't seem like a big deal.