Kirk's plan vs Nero:

[Stark]

Consider, though: Earth may not be absolutely critical to the survival of the Federation, but the USS Enterprise isn't either. If Kirk expects to be able to significantly delay Nero's destruction of Earth, let alone stop it outright, it could easily be worth the sacrifice of his entire command to achieve that goal. One ship is worth less than one planet, or even a fractional improvement in the odds of saving one planet.

Yeah let's go die FIRST, great plan.

You're forgetting the fucking point; Kirk had NO PLAN. His plan wasn't 'chase Nero and damage his drill' or 'chase Nero and ram him' or 'chase Nero and distract him', it was 'OMG U CUNT U KILLED MY DAD LET'S FUCK HIM UP GUYS RAAAAAAR'. He had no information suggesting he had a chance of doing anything, the available information strongly suggested he didn't, and he expressed no specific tactic that might change that. Whether or not Enterprise could have done something is IRRELEVANT to Kirk's, plan, because beyond 'chase Nero' he had NO PLAN. There was no decision-making process, no rationale, nothing. When assessing his decision, pie-in-the-sky maybes are worthless. He made a stupid decision for immature reasons and would have killed thousands of people because he's got a small dick.

Amusingly, since it's very possible Nero detected the approach of the Fed ships and destroyed them immediately, it's amusing to think the Enterprise would have exploded the second it dropped out of warp, victim to weapons Nero had fired some time in the past. Ooops.

BUT HE KILLED MY DAD RARARARARARAARARARA!

[open_sketchbook]

This has already been covered, you ignorant bugger. Due to the knowledge that he and the crew of the Enterprise alone possessed, he knew that if he went to meet up with the fleet, they would be too late and all the planning in the world would have gone to waste. His options were a) do something stupid that has very little chance of working or b) mindless follow orders with a 100% chance of Earth's destruction. He went for the choice with the .5% chance of working instead of the one with the 0% chance of working. That seems fairly logical to me.

[Stark]

Just like Pickett went with the charge with a 0.5% chance of working? Turns out killing everyone under your command for nothing is a bad decision. Amusingly, just like Kirk, if Pickett's assault had worked, we'd have nerds all over talking about how it was a great decision because of ... something. Doesn't make it less dumb.

Anyway, prove it had a 0.5% chance of working. Prove it had ANY chance of working. Did the original fleet have a 0.5% chance of working, or is that per-ship? Is it better to go in one at a time to get as many rolls as possible? lol

Remember, retreating to increase the chances of success instead of petulantly killing everyone on your ship = 'mindlessly following orders'. Is there any way of determining how long it takes Nero to set up and start his drill? Because in the movie it seemed to take some time, and Enterprise can't suicidally damage the drill if it isn't even out yet. I continue to lol at how people defend Kirk's decision - and describe it as 'going for the choice with the 0.5% chance of working' like he thought about it that much - as 'logical'. It's 'tough guy' and 'macho', it's still stupid. Talking about how essential (or not) Earth is is irrelevant to how eager Kirk was to die because he wasn't thinking straight (or at all). I learned today that if there's no way to stop something bad happening, you might as well die and kill everyone you work with, even if you're essentially a janitor, because otherwise you're 'mindless'.

[Darth Wong]

I don't see how you can be certain that he wasn't planning to take out the drill chain. It's not as if he got far enough to explain what his plan might be, if any. And it's not as if taking out the drill chain was some kind of brilliant non-obvious tactic that we can assume he wouldn't have thought of.

[Simon_Jester]

Stark, if Kirk honestly believed that he could substantially delay or disrupt Nero's operation against Earth, the correct response was to shut up and do the math. How many ships of Enterprise's strength, with their crews, does it take to equal the entire value of the planet Earth to the Federation? How do Kirk's odds of success compare to those numbers? We never got a chance to find out.

Remember, there's at least one precedent for a single ship causing the Narada significant harm and delaying its operations: the Kelvin did exactly that. Yes, it was a suicide mission, but when the stakes are "planet-shattering kaboom," sacrificing your entire command isn't automatically stupid.

[Stark]

I don't see how you can be certain that he wasn't planning to take out the drill chain. It's not as if he got far enough to explain what his plan might be, if any. And it's not as if taking out the drill chain was some kind of brilliant non-obvious tactic that we can assume he wouldn't have thought of.

If he'd had a chance to talk about his plan, he probably did have one (unless he is literally retarded). We didn't see that; I think we can judge him based on his obvious emotional and non-critical response (which was the point of the scene, with the whole Spock/Vulcan, Kirk/Earth thing going on, which would have worked a lot better if Kirk hadn't been such a dickface).

While the chain thing sounds good to us, I'm not sure how practical it is. Like I said, if Nero used weapons we saw to destroy the Fed fleet, it's possible his Future Sensors allowed him to fire at them before they emerged, to make up for the slow velocity of his projectiles. This would preclude Enterprise being able to target the chain, even if it isn't destroyed, due to range. It'd be clearer if we had a good idea of how long there was between 'reports of wierd shit on Vulcan' and 'oh dear it's gone'; I'm not sure how long the drilling procedure takes vs how long it takes to set up or deliver the red matter.

And Simon, fuck off. I'm not interested in excuses for Kirk's stupid decision; I'm just saying it was stupid, and the only defence I've seen is 'might have worked' and 'I bet he had a secret plan'. If he had a great plan, great, but we just don't know that. I saw a retard screaming and waving his fist in anger; this is not a 'hero' making a 'hard decision'; it's a moron making a knee-jerk decision from his gut instead of 'shut up and do the math'. Like I said, I love nerds trying to justify his appalling outburst as an example of heroism or tactical success for which he should be rewarded.

Using the Kelvin as an example when Nero obviously learnt his lesson and obliterated the Federation fleet without damage doesn't help your argument. As far as I see, the only trump Kirk had was Nero's possible fascination with the name Enterprise; he may have made poor combat decisions in order to 'beat' the 'famous' ship. He -was- a lunatic.

But if Kirk attacked and won because Nero was an idiot, that DOES NOT MAKE HIS DECISION A GOOD ONE, nor does it make him more responsible for the victory in the movie which required him to basically be Jesus.

[ThomasP]

Speaking of that bit about Nero letting up for the Enterprise, did the comic prequel thingy touch on why?

Just watching the movie with no background it was a WTF moment for why he'd specifically single them out. Yeah he wanted to milk Pike for the cheat-codes, but he could have done that for any other captain (as far as I could gather, anyway).

Nero obviously knew who Kirk was, so did that play some part in it?

[Stark]

I figured he was obviously just keying into Enterprise's famous history, and Pike and Kirk's significance to his own timeline. He was a pretty crazy guy, and I think being able to kill such famous historical figures turned him on.

[Bounty]

And the Enterprise had a second Spock on board to mess with.

[Stark]

It's interesting to me that he didn't react to the design of Enterprise (maybe he'd never seen a Connie before) or that it was different to the 'old' one (probably just evidence he doesn't come from TNG). He only reacted to the name itself; maybe Romulan miners read like 'hot starship captains that ruined the empire' magazine articles or something.

[JGregory32]

It's interesting to me that he didn't react to the design of Enterprise (maybe he'd never seen a Connie before) or that it was different to the 'old' one (probably just evidence he doesn't come from TNG). He only reacted to the name itself; maybe Romulan miners read like 'hot starship captains that ruined the empire' magazine articles or something.

Enterprise is a pretty famous ship. She has been the flagship of the federation since before Kirk's time and she's one of the few names that has never been retired.
Any captain would probably know at least a dozen myths and stories about the ship so it's not odd that Nemo recognizes the name but not the design.

As for Kirk's plan? Even if he didn't have one Spock's plan to fall back to some unknown fleet in some unknown place wasn't much better.

I find it interesting through that neither Kirk nor Spock sought to warn Earth that a crazed Romulan with a planet destroying weapon was on his way. I don't know what Earth might have done but they could have started doing SOMETHING.

[Gramzamber]

As for Kirk's plan? Even if he didn't have one Spock's plan to fall back to some unknown fleet in some unknown place wasn't much better.

For want of a better plan, I believe Spock's plan was simply "survive". The chances of survival are vastly increased if the Enterprise joins up with the main battle-ready fleet. And they knew full well where it was.

I find it interesting through that neither Kirk nor Spock sought to warn Earth that a crazed Romulan with a planet destroying weapon was on his way. I don't know what Earth might have done but they could have started doing SOMETHING.

If their comms were down or jammed and they couldn't outrun Nero there wouldn't be much point to that really.

[Stark]

As for Kirk's plan? Even if he didn't have one Spock's plan to fall back to some unknown fleet in some unknown place wasn't much better.

I find it interesting through that neither Kirk nor Spock sought to warn Earth that a crazed Romulan with a planet destroying weapon was on his way. I don't know what Earth might have done but they could have started doing SOMETHING.

Yeah, or even phone up the fleet to arrange a movement to Earth. Was there dialog about that, or was Mike right when he said that they got jammed when they arrived and their comms never worked again?

Without knowing how far the fleet was, Spock's plan (while obviously 'who cares about your planet mine blew up') might not have been that terrible - if their comms were broken, but their FTL was as fast as it seems, they may have been able to reach the fleet and return to Earth before anything terrible happened. Remember, in the movie events Nero had only just started drilling, and the drilling into Vulcan took some time. Sadly we don't know how far the fleet is - it's suggested, however, that they were too far to respond to the Vulcan incident (or too busy, whatever).

[Bounty]

Yeah, or even phone up the fleet to arrange a movement to Earth. Was there dialog about that, or was Mike right when he said that they got jammed when they arrived and their comms never worked again?

Radio was borked, Spock says so when Kirk is having his tantrum.

[Stark]

I'm glad someone remembers these things.

Is there any reason to believe that the fleet couldn't return to Earth in time? Kirk obviously wasn't thinking straight and wanted to go fight Nero right now, but is there any hint how far away the blahblah system was?

[Bounty]

It's far enough away to make sending newbies out to Vulcan instead of the fleet a good idea, not far enough out to be out of range of the Enterprise limping along. So basically "dunno".

[erik_t]

I'm glad someone remembers these things.

Is there any reason to believe that the fleet couldn't return to Earth in time? Kirk obviously wasn't thinking straight and wanted to go fight Nero right now, but is there any hint how far away the blahblah system was?

I only saw the movie once, so maybe there's an obvious answer to this question. But they didn't come, and why would they have not come had they been able to?

[Stark]

Bounty says their radio was fucked so the fleet didn't know what was happening. It's about as plausible as 'strange things at vulcan' that doesn't mention the giant spaceship, but that's apparently how it happened.

[Ted C]

Bounty says their radio was fucked so the fleet didn't know what was happening. It's about as plausible as 'strange things at vulcan' that doesn't mention the giant spaceship, but that's apparently how it happened.

I thought Nero was jamming long-range communications, but that shouldn't have been a problem once he left the Vulcan system.

[open_sketchbook]

It's possible the high power of the futuristic jamming system simply burnt out their FTL radio. I had a mental image of a high-powered radar system lighting a ship's sails on fire and giggled; it might be something like that.

[Erik von Nein]

Bounty says their radio was fucked so the fleet didn't know what was happening. It's about as plausible as 'strange things at vulcan' that doesn't mention the giant spaceship, but that's apparently how it happened.

I thought Nero was jamming long-range communications, but that shouldn't have been a problem once he left the Vulcan system.

Wasn't that attributed to the drill being active, though?

[Stark]

Bounty says their radio was fucked so the fleet didn't know what was happening. It's about as plausible as 'strange things at vulcan' that doesn't mention the giant spaceship, but that's apparently how it happened.

I thought Nero was jamming long-range communications, but that shouldn't have been a problem once he left the Vulcan system.

Like I say in the text you quoted, Bounty said that Spock mentions their radio was broken and they had to actually go there. Maybe the jamming burned it out or maybe the antennas got scraped off, but they couldn't phone up the fleet.