Could the Q be merely humanoids with advanced technology?

[Batman]

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing- 'I' was talking about Q (the John DeLancie one) changing the universal gravitational constant. Which never happened. What were you talking about?

[Stofsk]

Remember, Q did ultimately fix the problem!

And earlier in the episode, he explained how he would fix the problem.

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing- 'I' was talking about Q (the John DeLancie one) changing the universal gravitational constant. Which never happened. What were you talking about?

Well, I'm talking about the episode in question where the issue was restoring a moon to its proper orbit. The Enterprise couldn't do it, and it didn't do it, but by the end of the episode it was restored to its proper orbit. Q mentions how he would go about fixing the problem earlier in the episode. So your 'it never happened' argument doesn't make any sense.

[Metahive]

The largest reason the Q and the Grey demonstrates a technology is the weapons. The Voyager crew could simply pick up a Q weapon, and threaten them with this and the Q did not just make said weapons vanish out of their hands.

Ugh, one of the lowest points in the history of ST writing. They went with the "The Q present their world in a metaphorical fashion to outsiders" from Death Wish and then turned it all stupidly literal. Next federation troops will be equipped with straws. Why you ask? Because straws are known to be strong enough to break the backs of camels, silly! Those Klingons won't even see what hit them...

[SeaTrooper]

Ah, the resurrection of Zombie Threads... they want your BR-AAINNS.

Guys, why has no one mentioned the Goa'uld here? This is exactly the kind of 'overawe the peasants'-bullshit they gloried in. Ever since the very first Stargate movie, I've never been able to look at Q the same again.

Everything we've seen the Q do is within the realms of suitably extrapolated technological advances. The Ancients of SG Atlantis also give us a possible method of control, if the Q are connected to the Continuum via their genetic template, activating at puberty perhaps. And if Rodney McKay can utilise Ancient tech with a gene-mod shot to the arm, why couldn't the Feds do a similar number on the Q; with a little medical R&D, of course.
I'd never seen the holodeck explaination before, but that fills in many of the gaps nicely. Even the trial in Farpoint would be a piece of piss to do for the Feds, in one of their own holodecks. We've regularly seen them create far more complex environments.
Throw a starship 7,000ly? Sure, just tractor it to this cloaked ship (both ship and tractor concealed by ECM), and TOW it there at speeds the humans will likely match in a few hundred years.
Change the gravitational constant of that small moon? Okay, let's wrap a suitably large warp field around it, and see what happens.
Create a barrier that follows and wraps around a ship in warp? Does anyone else remember the Fesarius from TOS? That was done in realspace, but (again) give them some time to progress their technological limitations.
For Severeign, Q is mostly full of hot air. Yes, he pops in and out all the time, but the crew uses transporters without a care in the world. Picard walks through a door and finds himself in a strange place, wearing strange clothes and being addressed by a strange creature in a strange hovering device... strange, isn't it? Well, no. Holodecks, man, holodecks!
Apparently very long lives, verging on effective immortality? Ah, this is where the Feds Eugenics Wars and proscriptions against any genetic tampering acts against them. They simply CANNOT envision the scale of medical advances necessary to produce such an effect, mainly because the basic research required to achieve advances in geronotological improvements is ILLEGAL!
In the end, for atheists and the credulous alike, this question becomes a matter of standards. How much PROOF do you need? Would Occam's Razor allow a simpler explaination? Would the Federation be able to duplicate these feats using current or near-future technologies? And finally, do we rely on the statements of a known liar, braggard and shit-stirrer, or his actions?

[Metahive]

Except the Goa'uld have visible technology whose effects can be replicated. The Q, with the exception of that one crap episode Q and the Grey, don't and even there we never see them taking those rifles, swords and cannons that can wound and kill Q out of the Q Realm so we don't even know if they're technology at all or some sort of magical fantasy bullshit instead. Lots of assumption there, midshipman, but little to support it.

Also, we get to see what humanity is capable of in a few hundred years in Enterprise and Voyager and then the most impressive thing we get to see is the mobile holo emitter and various time traveling devices, hardly Q levels of power, since they also are still using spaceships to fight their wars.

[SeaTrooper]

Except the Goa'uld have visible technology whose effects can be replicated. The Q, with the exception of that one crap episode Q and the Grey, don't and even there we never see them taking those rifles, swords and cannons that can wound and kill Q out of the Q Realm so we don't even know if they're technology at all or some sort of magical fantasy bullshit instead. Lots of assumption there, midshipman, but little to support it.

Also, we get to see what humanity is capable of in a few hundred years in Enterprise and Voyager and then the most impressive thing we get to see is the mobile holo emitter and various time traveling devices, hardly Q levels of power, since they also are still using spaceships to fight their wars.

Great, the ethical journo is back, cherry-picking soundbites again.

Okay, what's your evidence? Everything we've seen Q do was merely an extrapolation on capabilities already possessed by the Fed. Sure, bloody impressive, but that impression often seems to be what they're aiming for.

Another point to keep in mind is that these stories were all written by Trek writers, not plucked out of some magical revelation. The feats they had Q achieving were only as awesome and amazing as they could think of, and we've often spoken here of the writers finite imaginations. Had Q actually changed a universal constant, with no blatantly obvious way of cheating in effect, then maybe I'd have been more impressed. As it is, the writers appear to have over-used common Fed tech-magic, simply boosting it several levels.

As for your astonishing non-non sequitur (well done, that man), yes the Feds to appear to have stagnated somewhat. It has also been argued that almost all the super-tech they have was gained from the Vulcans, that actual progress seems to have slowed to a crawl at best, and many wonder if they may have hit a plateau. Q did claim at one point that humanity might eventually surpass even the Q, but I personally figure this is going to take a frack of a long time given what we see between TOS and TNG. The couple of centuries I stated earlier was probably wildly over-optimistic.

[Batman]

Remember, Q did ultimately fix the problem!

And earlier in the episode, he explained how he would fix the problem.

Which shows that he either was bragging or had no clue what he was talking about even if he HAD the ability to do it.

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing- 'I' was talking about Q (the John DeLancie one) changing the universal gravitational constant. Which never happened. What were you talking about?

Well, I'm talking about the episode in question where the issue was restoring a moon to its proper orbit. The Enterprise couldn't do it, and it didn't do it, but by the end of the episode it was restored to its proper orbit. Q mentions how he would go about fixing the problem earlier in the episode. So your 'it never happened' argument doesn't make any sense.

Yes it DOES, as if Q HAD fixed the moon's orbit by changing the universal gravitational constant, the moon and its planet might have been fine (though I doubt even that), but the rest of the universe would have been in for a world of hurt. Alas, the rest of the Star Trek universe remained perfectly functional, so whatever he (or the rest of the Continuum) did to fix the situation (and I never denied him or they somehow did it), that particular method was not it.

[Batman]

I figure he did something similar to what Geordi tried to do, but he was able to do it on the right scale with ease.

Absolutely works for me. My 'that never happened' comment was WRT the changing of the universal gravitational constant, for the reasons presented. The moon being put back into orbit thing absolutely DID happen...somehow.

[Kythnos]

Yes it DOES, as if Q HAD fixed the moon's orbit by changing the universal gravitational constant, the moon and its planet might have been fine (though I doubt even that), but the rest of the universe would have been in for a world of hurt. Alas, the rest of the Star Trek universe remained perfectly functional, so whatever he (or the rest of the Continuum) did to fix the situation (and I never denied him or they somehow did it), that particular method was not it.

Exactly If Q had changed the Gravitational Constant of the Universe it should have ended all life as we know it. What is easier effect all matter everywhere, which may or may not fix the problem or just effect the moon, which will fix the problem?

[Metahive]

Okay, what's your evidence? Everything we've seen Q do was merely an extrapolation on capabilities already possessed by the Fed. Sure, bloody impressive, but that impression often seems to be what they're aiming for.

I just had to demote you, former midshipman, for making such a stupendous request that ignores the Burden of Proof. The rest of your post is irrelevant. Your next post will contain canon-evidence for Q powers being tech based or you will concede. Now hurry, the captain's requiring your services.

O yeah, and there's one episode refuting your claims decisevely anyway, True Q. Where did Olivia d'Abo hide all the technological gadgets that enabled her superpowers?

[Metahive]

O yeah, and one another thing, if I'm an "ethical jouno", what does that make you? Unethical. Thanks for playing, Cabin Boy.

[Baffalo]

The biggest problem facing the Q is the same one that plagued the Borg to death: Overexposure. It's easy for the Q to appear magical and god-like when you only have a small handful of examples to work with. It's like having open wounds: The more instances of them, the higher the chance it's going to turn nasty, shrivel up and die.

Anyway, the Q appeared to be beings intent on judging the fates of lesser species, as if collecting specimen in a petri-dish and letting them grow and taking only those that met very specific criteria. The biggest problem I have with the Q is that if they judge other races, why didn't they get involved with the species that spread the genetic material for the rest of the Alpha Quadrant's species? Did they get involved with the Preservers? Are the Q the Preservers?

The problem is that while yes, it's easy to believe that Q might have super advanced tech, the problem is that if you went to a suitably primitive culture here on Earth with helicopters, vehicles, weapons and other technology, they would probably think either this stuff is the work of Gods, or that it's evil and needs to be stabbed with spears and stuff. In this case, the Federation tends to be hostile towards Q, since Q appears to be dangerous and it's not entirely clear how they operate.

The biggest issue is, again, that the Q have been overexposed. The spectrum tends to work with either a small handful of instances or so many that you get a feel and understanding for what's going on. An example would be the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc. They've been around so long and given so much screen time that you have a basic understanding of how they might react.

The Q have fallen into a sort of limbo, exposed to the point of no longer being completely mysterious, but not enough that we understand why they do what they do, how they do it, their basic background, any of it. And unfortunately, the only fix at this point would be to expose the Q so much that they lose all the creative magic and just become another toss-away species, like the Borg.

[Batman]

O yeah, and there's one episode refuting your claims decisevely anyway, True Q. Where did Olivia d'Abo hide all the technological gadgets that enabled her superpowers?

Why, exactly, would she have to carry all that technology around with her? All she needs is access to the technology and the ability to activate it. The technology itself could be parked anywhere. Subspace, the Q Continuum...
All Amanda Rogers shows is that whatever grants one access to Q powers (whichever way they work) is apparently inheritable.

[Kythnos]

Why, exactly, would she have to carry all that technology around with her? All she needs is access to the technology and the ability to activate it. The technology itself could be parked anywhere. Subspace, the Q Continuum...
All Amanda Rogers shows is that whatever grants one access to Q powers (whichever way they work) is apparently inheritable.

Agreed and for a more another possible answer:
If memory severs in TOS there where aliens that used a wand and an amulet to either give themselves power. Maybe Amanda just inherited a ring or another item from her parents that gave them their power and also bestowed them on her.

[Skylon]

Why, exactly, would she have to carry all that technology around with her? All she needs is access to the technology and the ability to activate it. The technology itself could be parked anywhere. Subspace, the Q Continuum...
All Amanda Rogers shows is that whatever grants one access to Q powers (whichever way they work) is apparently inheritable.

Agreed and for a more another possible answer:
If memory severs in TOS there where aliens that used a wand and an amulet to either give themselves power. Maybe Amanda just inherited a ring or another item from her parents that gave them their power and also bestowed them on her.

There were also aliens who had evolved to absurd levels (the Organians, Metrons etc). If there is a technology, then "access" to it is on a genetic level.

Personally, I find it easier to just say "Q and the Grey" was wacky nonsense, that the Civil War crap was just the way it was so the mere-mortal Voyager crew could understand it. Heck, wasn't something to that effect stated in the episode?

I honestly don't quite get WHY there seems to be such a strong insistence that the Q must have a technology behind them. Outside of versus debates (aka dick-waving at Trekkies).

[Batman]

Who's insisting Q powers must be tech based? The only people arguing 'must' are the ones saying their powers must be inherent. The technology side, from what I can tell, is merely claiming it a) could be, b) fits with extrapolation from existing AQ technology, and c) isn't contradicted by anything. All of which happens to be true. All the TECH side is saying is that we can't rule out Q powers being technology based.

[Eframepilot]

Who's insisting Q powers must be tech based? The only people arguing 'must' are the ones saying their powers must be inherent. The technology side, from what I can tell, is merely claiming it a) could be, b) fits with extrapolation from existing AQ technology, and c) isn't contradicted by anything. All of which happens to be true. All the TECH side is saying is that we can't rule out Q powers being technology based.

We can't rule out all of Trek taking place in a holodeck somewhere, either, and in fact that would go a long way towards explaining all of the many plot holes, but we generally don't worry about that possibility, just as we don't worry about our entire real lives being lies concealing that we are actually plugged into the Matrix. It's a suspension of disbelief issue.

[Kythnos]

Sorry about that post not quit sure what I was trying to say in that first sentence.

There were also aliens who had evolved to absurd levels (the Organians, Metrons etc). If there is a technology, then "access" to it is on a genetic level.

I did not see anyone bring up those races nor the Douwd. So I am not saying there are not godlike aliens on ST.

Personally, I find it easier to just say "Q and the Grey" was wacky nonsense, that the Civil War crap was just the way it was so the mere-mortal Voyager crew could understand it. Heck, wasn't something to that effect stated in the episode?

Have you watched those episodes they kill almost anything related to the Q.
My favorite part is when Tom takes "Captain Q" hostage why does Captain not wish him away? Even if the "guns" protect Tom and the others from the "Q power" the guns can still harm Q and there by humans, and Tom is standing in front of a Cannon (and I mean the business end of it) Captain Q could just fire the cannon and bye bye Tom.

I honestly don't quite get WHY there seems to be such a strong insistence that the Q must have a technology behind them. Outside of versus debates (aka dick-waving at Trekkies).

I did not see anyone bring this up in relation to SW vs ST, except you.

[Batman]

Who's insisting Q powers must be tech based? The only people arguing 'must' are the ones saying their powers must be inherent. The technology side, from what I can tell, is merely claiming it a) could be, b) fits with extrapolation from existing AQ technology, and c) isn't contradicted by anything. All of which happens to be true. All the TECH side is saying is that we can't rule out Q powers being technology based.

We can't rule out all of Trek taking place in a holodeck somewhere, either, and in fact that would go a long way towards explaining all of the many plot holes, but we generally don't worry about that possibility, just as we don't worry about our entire real lives being lies concealing that we are actually plugged into the Matrix. It's a suspension of disbelief issue.

Which is relevant how exactly? The Q powers being tech based is entirely viable WITHIN suspension of disbelief.

[Stofsk]

Why, exactly, would she have to carry all that technology around with her? All she needs is access to the technology and the ability to activate it. The technology itself could be parked anywhere. Subspace, the Q Continuum...
All Amanda Rogers shows is that whatever grants one access to Q powers (whichever way they work) is apparently inheritable.

Agreed and for a more another possible answer:
If memory severs in TOS there where aliens that used a wand and an amulet to either give themselves power. Maybe Amanda just inherited a ring or another item from her parents that gave them their power and also bestowed them on her.

'Catspaw'

Also Trelayne from 'The Squire of Gothos' has remarkably Q-like powers. He used gadgets to augment his power, but he didn't have to rely on them. (Kirk destroys one of Trelayne's machines and Trelayne later says 'Did you really think that was the only instrumentality at my command?')

At the same time you have beings like the Organians, the Thasians, and what happened to Gary Mitchell, to show that high level psi power is god-like in the Trek universe.

[Skylon]

I did not see anyone bring up those races nor the Douwd. So I am not saying there are not godlike aliens on ST.

My point was there are Trek aliens who also have near god-like powers. The Q could just as easily fit that department. Further, as evidenced by Amanda Rogers being born a Q, if there is a "technology" behind it then access to it may be on some biological level.

Have you watched those episodes they kill almost anything related to the Q.
My favorite part is when Tom takes "Captain Q" hostage why does Captain not wish him away? Even if the "guns" protect Tom and the others from the "Q power" the guns can still harm Q and there by humans, and Tom is standing in front of a Cannon (and I mean the business end of it) Captain Q could just fire the cannon and bye bye Tom.

I honestly have not watched it since it first aired, nor am I terribly inclined to re-visit it unless armed with vodka. Could the Voyager crew have been "bestowed" with Q-like powers, like Riker in TNG for that battle?

I did not see anyone bring this up in relation to SW vs ST, except you.

If there is a technology behind the Q, it is something that nobody in Star Trek has come close to identifying as such. Q has hurled starships through vast distances and through time, changed the orbits of Moons, given a man either a near-death experience or an actual chance to relive his youth...and at what? The snap of a finger. Unlike someone like Trelane, Q is not bound by a singular location. If there is a technology, it is so up there, that the Q are the only ones who have access to it and can in turn, deny access. What is denial of access? Either death (as considered with Amanda Rogers) or being "transformed" into a life-form incapable of access (both Q and Quinn when stripped of powers become human).

So, we either have a race of beings, born with an innate access to their technology that allows them to act as gods at the slightest whim. A technology that never breaks, never malfunctions and is never seen.

Or creatures that have evolved way beyond us, of which there are several examples of in Star Trek.

Take your pick. The later seems to make more sense in the context of the series.

My point was ill-worded. I'll admit to that.

[Kythnos]

My point was there are Trek aliens who also have near god-like powers. The Q could just as easily fit that department. Further, as evidenced by Amanda Rogers being born a Q, if there is a "technology" behind it then access to it may be on some biological level.

And I don't disagree with you completely me may well be what he says he is, or your comment about Tech on a biological level could be dead on. (a little more on that later)

I honestly have not watched it since it first aired, nor am I terribly inclined to re-visit it unless armed with vodka.

I know what you are saying here. Just thinking about that,... well I am not sure what to call it, that massive steaming pile of shit, makes me feel dirty. (side rant here: I do find it truly remarkable that Voyager can make everything it touched SUCK so bad. The Borg and the Q it seemed that nothing was beyond it's ability to putrefy?)

Could the Voyager crew have been "bestowed" with Q-like powers, like Riker in TNG for that battle?

We never see them do anything other than fire the guns and threaten the other Q with them, but even if they did the "guns and cannon" would still be able to hurt them.

Just a few comments/questions about this:

If there is a technology behind the Q, it is something that nobody in Star Trek has come close to identifying as such. Q has hurled starships through vast distances and through time,

Well we have seen ST travel in time very easily, so easy that in First Contact Picard just tell them to set course for home.
In an Episode with Barkley, "Infinite potential" maybe?, he uses knowledge gained from a alien probe to move the enterprise a vast distance without warp drive. In fact Q's son does something very similar in Voyager.

changed the orbits of Moons

A feat that the Enterprise was accomplishing without him.

given a man either a near-death experience or an actual chance to relive his youth...

The Episode "Inner Light", if memory severs, Picard relives someone else life, but as he would have lived it.
Even Picard comments on Q's "impressive parlor tricks".

Or creatures that have evolved way beyond us, of which there are several examples of in Star Trek.

Honestly up to THAT episode I would have questioned how anyone could disagreed with you but now I have my doubts. Not saying you are wrong just that I am not so sure anymore.

[Metahive]

Why, exactly, would she have to carry all that technology around with her? All she needs is access to the technology and the ability to activate it. The technology itself could be parked anywhere. Subspace, the Q Continuum...
All Amanda Rogers shows is that whatever grants one access to Q powers (whichever way they work) is apparently inheritable.

And somehow everyone overlooks the noticable energy spikes that should occur every time a Q uses his powers if it were this way? Doesn't hold up.