What Voyager crewmember might be suitable for command?

[Purple]

While I appreciate anyone who makes a logical devil's advocate argument. . .
. . .I think you're making your stand on *very* thin ground here.

This is Voyager. Enough said.

Firstly, very few people on this board would consider Janeway "suitable for command"; hardly a good ruler to use against Neelix.

Yet she is a Star Fleet Captain so she is legally a benchmark that can be used.

Secondly, whatever his achievements, you can't deny the fact that Neelix is fundamentally stupid. I mean, there are *core* things you need to know about your ship, its capabilities etc. . . and he just doesn't. Case in point: "infinite velocity". . . (oh so that means you're going really fast, right?) from thereshhold.

And in the same episode (or some other) they actually managed to go at warp 10. The whole series was written in such a way that his assumptions (like more heat = faster cooking) might not at all be impossible. (An assumption that was in fact newer questioned in the room full of senior officers with at least one having Engineering education. You would think one of them would at least face palm.)

And considering the fact that he has newer been given any sort of formal education (as far as I am aware of) in the functioning of space craft or even physics would make him liable to take the Infinite Velocity claim as more of an exaggeration than a proper assessment.

Also, you keep emphasizing that he has a way of worming his way into what he wants. Well that may be, and it's bizzare i'll grant you that. But does it demonstrate an insight into human character or an ability to manipulate? In other words - is he doing this well or just being stubborn and getting lucky that nobody files obstruction charges against him?

When you get lucky so many times it begs the question if there is more to it. And it certainly seems that this is the case. Furthermore, he has shown the capability to talk people into things and manipulate them (or at least Janevay) beyond just blind luck.

It's pretty clear that Neelix fails this test, seeing as to how he needed Chakotay to explain the concept of 'jealousy' to him. And his subsequent acts of jealousy and stupidity even under life-threatening conditions (towards Paris) show just how poorly he handled himself.

And he has this one fault that is his jealousy. Considering his many qualities that he can use to attract a mate I am hardly surprised.
Still, one fault does not a bad commander make. And no man is infallible.

And in all his stupidity he is no worse than Janeway or most other members of the crew who routinely do things like:
1. Forget engineering solutions to problems they solved last week/month/day
2. Destroy valuable technology and doom them self in the name of "principals"
3. Refuse to save planets from doom in the name of "principals"
4. Trust and fall in love with enemy infiltrators while missing another spy under their nose in the same time (and rules lawyer Tuvok makes such a convincing anarchist terrorist to boot)
5. Blindly trust strange aliens who are not even their friends or acquaintances (the episode with the aliens that wanted to escape the Kazons and made that trap for the Kazon leaders)
6. Attempt to break the infinite speed barrier and succeed
etc.

[Thanas]

How so? Note that Han Solo attended the Imperial Academy, defeated an Imperial invasion of kessel, achieved several navigational and pilot fleets, took on Hutt clans and won etc. What has Neelix done that is even comparable?

I meant the movie only version, not the EU version.
I apologize for not making that clear when I should have.

Alright then, when has Neelix ever demonstrated leadership comparable to Han Solo in the movies?

And we have seen Nelix pull at least some heroic moments (like the scene in the kitchen where he fights the Kazon invader with only a frying pan).

You call that heroic, I call it a stupid move that would have gotten him killed had he been fighting anyone competent.

And that is an important quality to have considering how often Federation starships are deployed on diplomatic or cold war like missions where the skill to manipulate and get his own way might help him more than anything else.

And with the Federation, most negotiations seem to be undertaken by the Captain of what ever starship is passing by rather than a dedicated diplomat.

But what makes you think he even has the decency and tolerance needed to be Captain in the first place? There is no reason to suspect he won't try to manipulate his crew.

And his risk taking (as pointed out by me in my last post) might serve him quite well in such situations. But as I said, he would need an XO that is his counterpart to give him sanity when he needs it.

What makes you think he will be more receptive to said XO's advice than the advice his superiors give him in Voyager? The few times he gets authority he exploits it and is unwilling to listen to advice, so why should that instantly change once he gets the rank pins?

[Serafina]

Remember that Han was made a commander/general/somethinglikethat in the sixth movie. We might not exactly know why that has happened if we ignore the EU, but it already shows us that he must have demonstrated good leadership skills off-screen.

[Purple]

Alright then, when has Neelix ever demonstrated leadership comparable to Han Solo in the movies?

And excuse me if I am ignorant but does not Han Solo do things like:
1. Blindly run down a corridor chasing a bunch of enemies until they hit enemy central (on their home turf you might think they knew where they were retreating toward )
2. Fly through asteroid fields and do all sorts of crazy acrobatics like the thing with the star destroyer and the garbage dump that only succeeded due to a mixture of skill and blind luck
3. Get captured by a bunch of stone age space teddies
4. Lead the entire gang into a trap by blindly trusting his friend Lando

I mean, for all it is worth I don't recall him doing any really doing anything that I would call inspiring or leader material. Brave certainly. Even heroic but not exactly leadership material.

And Star Wars had much better quality in terms of writers and actors (Harrison Ford anyone) than Voyager. So the fact Nelix sucked so much at times can be attributed to bad presentation as much as it can be to bad character.

You call that heroic, I call it a stupid move that would have gotten him killed had he been fighting anyone competent.

You mean like chasing a bunch of storm troopers down a corridor in the largest and best maned battle station ever constructed stupid or attempting a suicide attack with a bunch of star fighters against the same station stupid? (and be honest, had the empire launched their full fighter wing it would have been game over) Or is it attempting to destroy the shield generator for another such star station only bigger with the equivalent of a squad with almost no proper intelligence while brining along a kid that the enemy can actively sense stupid?

Often the difference between stupid and brave is only the fact that brave worked.

But what makes you think he even has the decency and tolerance needed to be Captain in the first place? There is no reason to suspect he won't try to manipulate his crew.

So? As long as he does it in a way that keeps the ship doing what the federation wants it to do and he does not go way out of line (like say murder or traumatize anyone) is that not a valid method of command?

What makes you think he will be more receptive to said XO's advice than the advice his superiors give him in Voyager? The few times he gets authority he exploits it and is unwilling to listen to advice, so why should that instantly change once he gets the rank pins?

I don't know that he would. But given someone with some common sense rather than Janeway (is it spelled with a W or a V?) to be around might help. And command training might actually not harm him either. He certainly has more leadership potential than say Harry Kim.

Remember that Han was made a commander/general/somethinglikethat in the sixth movie. We might not exactly know why that has happened if we ignore the EU, but it already shows us that he must have demonstrated good leadership skills off-screen.

Indeed. He is made a General and immediately dispatched on a commando raid that might as well be a suicide mission.
I mean, if they cared for him and his skill so much why did no one step out and say: "Regulations say that someone of that rank should not be risking his life on such a mission." or "The rebellion can not afford to lose such a man as your self." I mean we even get Janeway called out on it a few times.

And while I understand just how desperate the situation was. I also think that at least someone would have said something if nothing than out of some sort of respect.

[Serafina]

Except that the WHOLE operation is a do-or-die mission for the Rebel Alliance. So sending out their BEST commander seems logical, given that a failure of the ground mission doesn't only mean that most of their fleet will get slaughtered, the Empire will also finish the Death Star.
It was just that desperate, so i think it's well-justified.

Oh, and i'm pretty sure he wasn't made general right at that time, he was one for quite some time - IIRC, Lando was the one to be promoted during the scene.

[Purple]

I edited. But yes, I understand that to a point. But there should at least been some heaviness to it.
I might recall badly thou. It's been a while since I watched that part.

[Thanas]

Alright then, when has Neelix ever demonstrated leadership comparable to Han Solo in the movies?

And excuse me if I am ignorant but does not Han Solo do things like:
1. Blindly run down a corridor chasing a bunch of enemies until they hit enemy central (on their home turf you might think they knew where they were retreating toward )
2. Fly through asteroid fields and do all sorts of crazy acrobatics like the thing with the star destroyer and the garbage dump that only succeeded due to a mixture of skill and blind luck
3. Get captured by a bunch of stone age space teddies
4. Lead the entire gang into a trap by blindly trusting his friend Lando

Aside from the first one, the rest is really either a combination of bad luck or a show of great skill. And the first one has him still being able to escape intact.

Meanwhile, Han also does things like finding Luke in the middle of a storm, intercept an Imperial probe droid, rescue Luke at Yavin etc. All thing Neelix has not even shown potential of.

Besides, there is the EU, which shows him being able to build great coalitions out of people who hate each other's guts in addition to all his other feats. But Neelix does not even show an inkling of leadership qualities.

And Star Wars had much better quality in terms of writers and actors (Harrison Ford anyone) than Voyager. So the fact Nelix sucked so much at times can be attributed to bad presentation as much as it can be to bad character.

No, it cannot. Ethan Phillips actually is a good actor given material worth a damn. Do not fault him for the obvious character flaws.

You mean like chasing a bunch of storm troopers down a corridor in the largest and best maned battle station ever constructed stupid or attempting a suicide attack with a bunch of star fighters against the same station stupid? (and be honest, had the empire launched their full fighter wing it would have been game over) Or is it attempting to destroy the shield generator for another such star station only bigger with the equivalent of a squad with almost no proper intelligence while brining along a kid that the enemy can actively sense stupid?

Often the difference between stupid and brave is only the fact that brave worked.

So high-risk missions are the same as obvious stupidity in your book. Yeah, great argument there champ.

So? As long as he does it in a way that keeps the ship doing what the federation wants it to do and he does not go way out of line (like say murder or traumatize anyone) is that not a valid method of command?

No. You have to be able to inspire trust in your subordinates. Leadership through fear is not an effective way of leadership, as many including the Nazis have found out.

I don't know that he would. But given someone with some common sense rather than Janeway (is it spelled with a W or a V?) to be around might help. And command training might actually not harm him either. He certainly has more leadership potential than say Harry Kim.

Based on what? Kim actually performed adequately in his command roles. Neelix however has no leadership qualities at all. When he is given command responsibility, he gets people killed.

Indeed. He is made a General and immediately dispatched on a commando raid that might as well be a suicide mission.
I mean, if they cared for him and his skill so much why did no one step out and say: "Regulations say that someone of that rank should not be risking his life on such a mission." or "The rebellion can not afford to lose such a man as your self." I mean we even get Janeway called out on it a few times.

And while I understand just how desperate the situation was. I also think that at least someone would have said something if nothing than out of some sort of respect.

You sent your best people on the hardest missions because you want them to succeed. Per your logic, a military should not send its best troops into battle at all.

[Purple]

Aside from the first one, the rest is really either a combination of bad luck or a show of great skill. And the first one has him still being able to escape intact.

I would rather call it a combination of great luck and some skill. But that is open to interpretation.

Meanwhile, Han also does things like finding Luke in the middle of a storm, intercept an Imperial probe droid, rescue Luke at Yavin etc. All thing Neelix has not even shown potential of.

True, I concede that Han Solo is a greater man than Nelix.

No, it cannot. Ethan Phillips actually is a good actor given material worth a damn. Do not fault him for the obvious character flaws.

Back where I come from we have a saying.
If the grandmother had wheels she would be a tram.

So high-risk missions are the same as obvious stupidity in your book. Yeah, great argument there champ.

High risk missions with little proper preparation (like not knowing that there was a back entrance or what forces are in the area) carried out in a rush out of desperation do indeed look stupid when observed from the side lines.

Just like taking a gamble and hoping it works if you have no choice is.

No. You have to be able to inspire trust in your subordinates. Leadership through fear is not an effective way of leadership, as many including the Nazis have found out.

Who said anything about fear? When did you see Nelix intimidate someone into doing his biding?
Could he even do that?

Based on what? Kim actually performed adequately in his command roles. Neelix however has no leadership qualities at all. When he is given command responsibility, he gets people killed.

So did Janeway. She got more people killed than Nelix. Yet she is still a captain.
Although I admit just how horribly weak this argument is.

You sent your best people on the hardest missions because you want them to succeed. Per your logic, a military should not send its best troops into battle at all.

You make a good point there.

But again, I admit just how horribly weak this argument is.
All in all. I think I will be content to settle that Nelix is not quite as horrible and idiotic as he seems at times and that he actually has some redeeming qualities.

[Sela]

...

and even then, the only logic by which he's not exactly "that horrible and idiotic" is if you make the jump you did earlier and say "Well the whole *series* is idiotic, and an idiot in an idiot universe is not an idiot." Otherwise we still have the plethora of phenomenally dumb things he says, believes, and does coupled with the overall incompetency he shows at every turn.

The whole series was written in such a way that his assumptions (like more heat = faster cooking) might not at all be impossible.

[Purple]

Well considering the fact that the same series managed to fly at infinite speed...

[Stark]

Says who?

[Purple]

The whole travel at warp 10 episode. I might be wrong but I think Paris made a shuttle fly at warp 10 and than became some sort of thing... (don't recall the details)

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Threshold_(episode)

Sorry that it is a wiki link. But that is the best I could find within the edit limit.

[Stark]

Since they clearly have no idea what they're talking about, how do you know it was 'infinite speed' just because they say so? Did anyone ever travel to the other side of the universe?

[Purple]

I think we both should agree to not go to the point where we run around in circles fueled by the fact that the whole show (with all it's good and bad sides) seemed at time to have been written on mushrooms.

I don't want to open that can of worms. To that purpose, I step back.

[Crayz9000]

For what it's worth, Threshold (the warp 10 episode) was so bad it was actually struck from canon at the writers' request by Paramount.

[Chris OFarrell]

Source?

[Crayz9000]

*shrugs sheepishly*

After much intensive Googling it appears that I'm mistaken. The closest I came to it was a quote from Rick Berman admitting that Threshold was one of the worst episodes he'd written, and the fact that all of the show's writers refused to include any mention of it in future episodes. So it wasn't officially de-canonized, just ostracized by the creative staff.

[Serafina]

Didn't Tom state in a later episode that "he never flew at trans-warp" or something like that?

[Solauren]

I went with The Hologram, Vulcan, and the Rebel Commander.

Paris is a maverick, kim is an idiot, Tores snaps.

Seven would be better as a stragetic consultant. Or else having her informing the Borg about the Dominion, and then watching the fireworks from a safe distance.

[Chris OFarrell]

*shrugs sheepishly*

After much intensive Googling it appears that I'm mistaken. The closest I came to it was a quote from Rick Berman admitting that Threshold was one of the worst episodes he'd written, and the fact that all of the show's writers refused to include any mention of it in future episodes. So it wasn't officially de-canonized, just ostracized by the creative staff.

Damnit, knew it was too good to be true

[Franc28]

Just curious, why didn't anyone vote for Torres before me? I don't think she'd make the best captain, but she's leagues beyond most of these bozos (which include a cardboard cutout, an eternal loser who can't keep his dick in his pants, an ex-Borg drone who doesn't understand how humans work, and an overgrown ferret whose usefulness and competency are second to those of actual ferrets).

[DaveJB]

While Torres is undoubtedly competent at what she does, she's probably too much of a loose cannon to make a good captain. Moreover, she quite often came across as being almost fanatically devoted to following Janeway (and Chakotay earlier in the series), which suggests that she has either spectacularly bad judgement or a lack of confidence in her own ability to make command-level decisions.

[Eleas]

What ever you say about Nelix he did canonically spend a lot of time as a starship captain in the delta quadrant. So he can't be all that bad at it.

Apologies if this constitutes dogpiling, but Neelix ran a fucking garbage scow. He was captain by sole virtue of no-one else being on board. If self-appointment is a compelling argument for the position of Starfleet captaincy, then I would submit that the bar is set fairly low.

Essentially, Neelix drove a garbage truck, which incidentally may be why Janeway decided he'd make an excellent cook.

[Franc28]

I'm not saying Torres is command material, just that she has got to be in the top 3 of this sorry bunch.

[Mr Bean]

The Doctor, Tuvok and Chakotay are the top three as has been stated previously.

Torres is not suited for command because we can see how shitty her department is run, not to mention her former job was grunt mechanic. She's a good mechanic but she's a terrible leader because she does not lead. Yelling at your people to do things works fine for a comedy/drama but really poor when you need to lead people. She combines the traits of OSD, Micromanagement, Anger management issues on top of lets face it, serious personal issues that keep her a constant mental basket case.

Even a proven failure like Tom Paris (Ace pilot, shitty leader) is a better choice because at least Tom does okay when things are going fine and are unlikely to screw with shit that's working. Roughly two third of Voyagers problems come out of Torres departments because she can't think ahead to save her damn life.