Enterprise during the Dominion War

[PREDATOR490]

The Feds have changed ship names before to suit their purposes and one expects they would be a lot more willing to do so when it is the big E. especially when the dominion war was escalating even before the D hit the deck.

Getting their flagship out on the field as fast as possible would make sense and using the nearest freshly minted experimental cruiser adds a little more prestige to the situation by making it a one-off unique.

The only mention of an actual original sovy comes from the game bridge commander - which stated the sovy was a test bed for experimental tech that didn't pan out thus it got left to rot in dock until they basically used it because nothing else was available during a need for another ship.
That is effectively the situation that happens with the enterprise crew.

Personally, I don't see much about the sovy to make it that much better than any other large Fed cruiser. Compared to the Defiant performance or even the Lokota the Sovy ends up being a really nice looking waste of material.

[DaveJB]

Getting their flagship out on the field as fast as possible would make sense and using the nearest freshly minted experimental cruiser adds a little more prestige to the situation by making it a one-off unique.

What support is there for the assumption that Starfleet only ever intended to make one Sovereign-class ship? Even if we accept that the Enterprise-E was the only Sovereign around in the Dominion War (something you haven't proven), it makes just as much sense to assume that the Sovereign was Admiral Hayes's flagship that got destroyed in First Contact - in fact more, since it wouldn't fly in the face of both Starfleet's prior naming conventions and common sense as to why they'd put so much effort into a one-off design.

If you accept the TNG Tech Manual's construction timetables for the Galaxy-class (which aren't canon I know, but there isn't really anything else to go on), the original USS Galaxy was launched two years before the start of TNG, and in the next two years they only produced two more; the Yamato and the Enterprise-D. Assuming a similar timetable for the Sovereign class, they likely wouldn't have had more than 3 or 4 in service at the time the Dominion War started, and Stafleet probably figured they were too big of a loss in tactical and PR terms to risk them on frontline assaults.

Personally, I don't see much about the sovy to make it that much better than any other large Fed cruiser. Compared to the Defiant performance or even the Lokota the Sovy ends up being a really nice looking waste of material.

Comparing it to the Defiant is a red-herring; the Sovereign is a capital ship, and the Defiant a destroyer. The Sovereign's ideological predecessor is the Galaxy-class, and as a warship the SCS would win out due to its better size-to-firepower ratio and being more manoeuvrable. Granted, the GCS would likely have more utility in peacetime, but for a time when there were tons of people lining up to kick the Federation in the balls, the SCS would have been the better capital ship.

[Stark]

I know you're captain dismiss the ideas of others while endlessly repeating your own, but there's only evidence of one Sovereign (nobody even mentions any others) so quit making shit up. The only real question is stuff like 'if they had others under construction why didn't they make them into frankenstien ships during the Dominion war' and 'were their attributes desirable in the kind of fighting that took place during that war'.

Bear in mind the Sovereign has put in some pretty poor combat performances in movies, so First Contact is really the only evidence for it being particularly powerful. I don't have any problem with the idea that it was considered three upgraded Excelsiors were more useful (or whatever).

[Batman]

I don't see it doing anything in 'First Contact' that a Galaxy couldn't have done too. By the time it joined the battle the Borg cube was already heavily damaged and we saw that a Galaxy can do serious damage to a cube without their adaption magic in the very episode the Borg were introduced in. The E-E seemed to have more resilient shields but that's just as likely to be a result of them improving on the frequency variation shenanigans as of the shields being just a lot tougher.
Then as Stark noted there's her less than impressive performance in Insurrection and Nemesis, and at least for Nemesis it didn't have the excuse of Riker being in command.
And there's plenty of evidence for one-ship classes in the real world. A certain CVN comes to mind

[Stark]

Yeah, it tanked a shot from a borg cube... but then in later movies is shown to be pretty weak/easy to damage. It was just a glory shot for the introduction and you could say it was some borg-specific business. Outside of games/manuals/books I'm not sure there's much evidence for the idea its some kind of amazing super ship (although doubtless its faster).

Or we're right back to the Son'a being really powerful. :V

[DaveJB]

It doesn't need to be vastly more powerful than the Galaxy; just offering an equivalent amount of weaponry and shield power in its smaller mass would make it more efficient as a warship. It should also mean that it would theoretically require less raw materials and integration time than a Galaxy, although I would imagine that Starfleet's decade of experience manufacturing the GCS cancelled out that advantage.

I don't have any problem with the idea that it was considered three upgraded Excelsiors were more useful (or whatever).

In all honesty, considering the implied slow ramp-up time for the Federation's capital classes and the seemingly huge advantage in overall fleet numbers that the combined Dominion and Cardassian forces had, it does make quite a lot of sense that Starfleet would spend more time bringing their stockpile of Excelsiors and Mirandas up to spec rather than producing what at best would probably be a small handful of Sovereign-classes.

As for the notion of the Sovereign being intentionally a one-off or extremely limited run... thinking about it, I actually do vaguely recall a line in one of the TNG-relaunch novels that implied which the actual successor to the Galaxy-class was originally supposed to be the Prometheus-class, and that the Sovereign was an intermediate design that Starfleet whipped up after Wolf-359 when it became clear that they needed a new design quickly and the Prometheus was still a decade or so away. Of course, the same novels also have the Sovereign class having become much more common in the post-Nemesis timeframe (and establish for certain that there was a USS Sovereign), so make of that what you will.

[Stark]

Right, except nobody cares about the novels. Whatever story we make up to explain what we see needs to account for all of it, and nothing from the EU. Given their technology I'm not sure how much sense it makes to abandon construction of ships in progress, so the nonsense I made up isn't necessarily plausible... but even referring to the novels doesn't help.

[PREDATOR490]

The Federation has been shown to make experimental test bed ships for their latest technologies even when they dont know if it will actually work.
Isnt this what happened with the magical Harry Kim runabout they didnt even know worked ?
Someone comes up with the idea for a Soverign, mints it out as an experiment or whatever and then the E-D crashes leaving them in the lurch to find a replacement as quickly as possible - oh look, Federation tradition has often put the big E on newest classes so they have a nice fancy shiny ship that is the first of her class that can be launched quickly with a quick rename.
Then they see the Sovy really isnt worth the bang for the buck compared to minting out the tried and true designs or going one better with the smaller and tougher classes like Akiras, Prometheus, Sabers, Norways, Intrepids... insert laundry list of fan fiction, STO and any other bullshit.

Saying there was another Sovy flying around is totally unsupported by anything we see in Star Trek and makes Geordi look like a bit of a tit when he blows the trumpet about the E-E being the most advanced ship in the fleet... except those other Sovies. The ship itself didnt do anything that impressive or better than other ships we have seen. There is no evidence the Sovy is equal or greater in any regard than a Galaxy Class. At best the only thing special about the class is the ability to fire Quantum Torpedoes and rapidly fire phasers.
That said, the E-D was capable of unleashing multiple barrels of hurt when they actually decided to try it.
Alternatively, we have the classic Sacrifice of Angels battle where we see the Galaxy Bitch Slap

The large size of the Galaxy class and abundant amount of shit they have managed to cram into it should allow them to use the same spaceframe to make a War-Galaxy that removes all that shit and uses the saved space for extra armour and combat systems. Infact, we might even call the testbed attempt to make a streamlined Galaxy... a Sovereign but then they realise that making a whole new spaceframe is rather pointless when they can just do what they did with the Lakota. If they can upgrade an Excelsior to go toe to toe with the Defiant and the Dominion, it is beyond reason they cannot do the same with the much larger and bulkier Galaxy Class. Regardless, the actual capabilities of the Sovereign have never been properly observed and the only examples of her performance are abysmal thus all she has going for her is looking slightly more shiny and cool than the Galaxy Class.

[Lord MJ]

One could assume that there is the USS Sovereign if indeed the Enterprise wasn't an experimental ship.

Though some have theorized the Sovereign wasn't meant to replace the GCS. But to replace the Excelsior Class, and that presumably in a few decades Trek universe time, the Federation would have Soveriegns flying around instead of Excelsiors.

The GCS was only 10 years old at the time of First Contact.

I did think the E-E did well in the Battle of Nemesis. A ship taking multiple salvos over a long battle and yet still fighting back is something we haven't seen much of in Trek starship combat.

BTW: Another video of the GCS unleashing the mother load: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_XbWq49vUM

[Havok]

One could assume that there is the USS Sovereign if indeed the Enterprise wasn't an experimental ship.

This was my initial thought. Why would it be the only one, designed to specifically be the Enterprise and then designate it "Sovereign" class. I mean I guess you could make the argument of military thinking, which would cover it in a "lol" sorta way, but it doesn't make much sense.

[Skywalker_T-65]

The explanation in here tends to lean towards 'it was the Sovereign but when the E-D went boom they needed a new ship, and made the Sov into the E-E'. Which could happen, but is doubtful.

[Stark]

The names of ships under construction being changed as sister ships are cancelled or delayed has a rich historical history. Even if you assume magical ST land runs on rules like OMG NAME OF CLAZZ = NAME OF FIRZT SHIPPU there's ample evidence of ships being renamed, names being reused, etc.

We see a single ship, build right before (or during or whatever) the most desperate war the Federation ever fought. Its not hard to believe that they simply cancelled all the ships being built that couldn't be finished in xyz timeframe, renamed the only completed Sovereign to replace the humiliatingly lost Enterprise (destroyed on a backwater by hillbilly idiots), and went back to spamming out smaller ships/cheaper ships/ships yards are ready to build/things that use the crap they have lying around/anything but the cutting-edge wondership.

Have we ever even seen a yard building a Sovereign? Another Sovereign even mentioned?

Yeah T-65 you're right nobody in the Federation would ever renamed a ship 'Enterprise' to replace a lost one lol what a stupid idea

[Havok]

Yeah all that is great, but I'm talking about if the ship was specifically being built as the Enterprise. The class would be Enterprise. Star Trek follows maritime ship naming traditions.
There is even a canonical example of this in the Defiant. I agree with what you say, but I am just talking about that specific circumstance.

All that said, Memory Alpha shows three onscreen LCARS readout appearances during the show's run and during the Dominion War so the whole thing is moot. If the Enterprise wasn't involved in any of those actions, there was clearly others of the class involved.

[Stark]

'Maritime'? Do you think they're all the same?

How can there be 'sightings' on displays without knowing names? Are they cute little icons? Maybe marketing updated their UI look and feel before the program was cancelled. :v

[Havok]

I'm sorry, do I really need to say "U.S. maritime" when referring to Star Trek?

And because in Star Trek DS9 they tended to use specific ship shapes to identify ships shown on displays.

[Stofsk]

The names of ships under construction being changed as sister ships are cancelled or delayed has a rich historical history. Even if you assume magical ST land runs on rules like OMG NAME OF CLAZZ = NAME OF FIRZT SHIPPU

We don't have to assume, it's canon fact. The USS Excelsior was NX-2000, and first of its class when it appeared in Star Trek III. The registry was later changed to the regular NCC in Star Trek VI. The USS Defiant, as Havok already mentioned, was the first of its class and also has the NX prefix. The USS Prometheus in 'Message in a Bottle', same NX prefix etc. All of these ships were the first of their class and they were prototype vessels, which is what the NX prefix denotes, and their names formed the class name. But if you're using the notion that because we only ever see one Sovereign-class and thus it is the ONLY Sovereign-class, then I have to ask why don't we see any other signs that Starfleet has used the naming conventions it has always employed. Why isn't 'this was the USS Sovereign, but we renamed it because Enterprise is totes a better name' not part of either the script for First Contact or part of the backstory? Hell that last part would settle the matter entirely, as Michael Okuda said there was a USS Sovereign and he worked on the shows and movies.

there's ample evidence of ships being renamed, names being reused, etc.

Yeah granted that, but if that's the case here then why didn't they change the class name? If they're going to rename a ship that's in the yards why would they do a half-job of it? This is before you read the background stuff, where the writers clearly settled on the Enterprise being only one Sovereign among many.

Also the idea that Starfleet has used single ships as 'testbed designs', and thus the Enterprise-E was some kind of one-off class design, just doesn't sound convincing to me. I can't think of a single instance of that in the shows or movies. The number of times a ship class has been reused with a different name and registry number overwhelmingly suggests that this isn't the case. It just seems a reach to me. Even ships that began as prototypes tend to go on and lead a whole line of ships of the same class.

[Connor MacLeod]

Could it be that there actually was a Sovereign laid down first, it got delayed for some reason in construction, and so the first ship technically 'built' was the E-E? Just throwing that idea out.

And as for why the E-E was kept out of the Dominion war, I sometimes wonder if there was something up with the ship (or crew) that needed relegated to escondary duty. Although to be honest, with the way warp drive works I don't think one could really argue there are true 'front' lines and back lines.. I mean people could theoretically strike anywhere, so it might actually make sense ot have some of your heavier ships dispersed around the galaxy at least as a safety measure (to help deter raiding if nothing else.)

[DrMckay]

I'm just trying to imagine an Enterprise-E Crewmember awkwardly walking into a bar just after the Dominion War had finished, and getting asked "Where the hell were you" by just about everybody in those older ships, and the survivors of the many Mirandas that died like flies.

Raising Morale on the Homefront is one thing. Morale on the battlefront is another thing entirely, and I can only imagine plotwise what the reaction of the outmatched Federation crews in any large battle of the Dominion War would have been if the Enterprise was leading one or two actions with Picard at the helm.

That would be like It Nimitz and the Yorktown not participating in the Battle of Midway. (Yes, I know he had his flag on a cruiser.)

It was a poor creative decision not to include them, however peripherally.

Oh. Wait. I do remember how Starfleet crews reacted to seeing the Enterprise appear in a desperate battle. In the first few minutes of First Contact when they show up to stop a Borg Cube.

One of those moments on DS9 would have been great, and might have been a thematic conclusion/resolution to Sisko being angry with Picard for killing his wife as Locutus.

[Stofsk]

Could it be that there actually was a Sovereign laid down first, it got delayed for some reason in construction, and so the first ship technically 'built' was the E-E? Just throwing that idea out.

Not too far from what the writers envisioned - Ron Moore said in an AOL chat back when FC came out that he reasoned the ship itself was an unnamed Sovereign that had begun construction during TNG's seventh season, and that after the events of Generations it was renamed to be the next Enterprise.

EDIT Incidentally, this information partially supports Stark's assertion that the ship was renamed and doesn't exclude the possibility that the Enterprise is a one-of-a-kind.

And as for why the E-E was kept out of the Dominion war, I sometimes wonder if there was something up with the ship (or crew) that needed relegated to escondary duty. Although to be honest, with the way warp drive works I don't think one could really argue there are true 'front' lines and back lines.. I mean people could theoretically strike anywhere, so it might actually make sense ot have some of your heavier ships dispersed around the galaxy at least as a safety measure (to help deter raiding if nothing else.)

Well look, the real answer for this thread's question is that Berman didn't want the Enterprise-E to be used in DS9 and none of the TNG crew to feature (outside of Worf). That this was a creatively bankrupt a decision is obvious, and leads to hilarious shit like Insurrection having to make up an excuse for Worf to pop by for a visit. (but really, the less said about that movie the better)

I get that people want/need an in-universe answer, but there isn't any and what there is is either speculation or semi-official stuff like the Dominion War books, which the vast majority of people haven't read. Personally I just makebelieve the Enterprise was involved in battles that took place offscreen from what we saw on DS9 and leave it at that. Because literally your guess is as good as mine.

[Nephtys]

So... why is it 'creatively bankrupt' to exclude a teeny bit of fanservice?

Seriously. The show is DS9, and the focus is DS9 characters. I'm sure a few throwaway lines like 'Fourth Fleet, lead by Enterprise will hit here, while we go here' would be alright. But really, what purpose would some expensive spaceship porn of E-E showing up and Picard's voice serve? Do you REALLY need to know what the E-E did during the Dominion War?

[JME2]

Seriously. The show is DS9, and the focus is DS9 characters. I'm sure a few throwaway lines like 'Fourth Fleet, lead by Enterprise will hit here, while we go here' would be alright.

The nature of continuity overlap; fans are going to want to see cross references. A line here or there would have been fine for me, too.

Personally, I've always through INS would have been stronger had it been more closely tied to the War, that the metaphasic radiation could have been used to treat the injured or part of the Federation's agreement with Son'a involved cessation of Ketracel White shipments to the Dominion.

It would have put Picard in a tighter moral bind: Save 600 people or deprive Starfleet of a key resource/geopolitical devleopment during wartime.

[Stofsk]

So... why is it 'creatively bankrupt' to exclude a teeny bit of fanservice?

Seriously. The show is DS9, and the focus is DS9 characters. I'm sure a few throwaway lines like 'Fourth Fleet, lead by Enterprise will hit here, while we go here' would be alright. But really, what purpose would some expensive spaceship porn of E-E showing up and Picard's voice serve? Do you REALLY need to know what the E-E did during the Dominion War?

Why would including the Enterprise-E in major fleet actions during a major war be fanservice? Alternatively, if it is fanservice, then why is it a bad thing or why can't there be Sovereign-class ships peppered throughout some of the fleet battles? The idea that the show cannot refer to its sister shows is negated by the fact Worf is even a cast member to begin with, that various other TNG actors had made cameos on both spin-offs, including Voyager which should have been impossible in comparison to DS9, and really why shouldn't we have some idea as to what the Enterprise was doing during the war when it's lead fleets before in First Contact and other episodes of TNG?

It was creatively bankrupt because Berman was a fucking idiot and he thought people would be 'confused' if cross references happened. Furthermore as others have pointed out in this thread, the Enterprise was conspicuous in its absence.

[Batman]

Nevermind Worf, what about O'Brien? The guy was with the show from the word go and I do think I've seen him on TNG once or twice.
The E-E not being center stage was perfectly acceptable, this show is about DS9 and its crew, but there not even being a throwaway line about the E-E being with 7 and a halfth Fleet defending the Really Tasty Pretzels system, or in drydock, or somewhere once the Dominion War was seriously underway was pretty damned weird. I mean, allegedly the most advanced ship of the fleet, hero Captain, hero crew-and the damn thing isn't even mentioned. Before the war I could have accepted as her being away in some backwater somewhere doing something moderately pointless that the Federation flagship is completely wasted on like they did a lot of the time in TNG, but during the war?

[Skylon]

They had also mentioned the Enterprise before. In "Tribunal" the Enterprise (D) was mentioned as one of the ships deployed to the Cardassian border. Granted this was more done as a tip-of-the hat than anything else, as it was the first episode of DS9 to air after TNG's finale, "All Good Things..."

But, given the big role always accredited to the Enterprise, not mentioning the ship's activities during a massive war makes it an issue for anyone familiar with the franchise. I see why Berman wouldn't want the Enterprise to be visible in major fleet actions/battles, because then you have the question of "Why isn't Picard leading this?" But you can still pull throwaway lines "The Enterprise and the USS Whatever are still engaged on the far side of Cardassian space." Or one of those times they loved talking about how shitty the war was going a line like "The Enterprise found twenty survivors from the USS Redshirt..."

[Connor MacLeod]

Well look, the real answer for this thread's question is that Berman didn't want the Enterprise-E to be used in DS9 and none of the TNG crew to feature (outside of Worf). That this was a creatively bankrupt a decision is obvious, and leads to hilarious shit like Insurrection having to make up an excuse for Worf to pop by for a visit. (but really, the less said about that movie the better)

I have no objection to an out of universe answer, unless I'm looking for in universe solutions

I get that people want/need an in-universe answer, but there isn't any and what there is is either speculation or semi-official stuff like the Dominion War books, which the vast majority of people haven't read. Personally I just makebelieve the Enterprise was involved in battles that took place offscreen from what we saw on DS9 and leave it at that. Because literally your guess is as good as mine.

I can understand that, but I would argue that looking for an in-universe one that works can also help in reconciling alot of purported 'problems' or 'inconsistencies' in a series. Call it/view it whatever you will, but more oftne than not when someone says something is contradictory or just complains about it, it has more to do with their perspective or preconceptions about it. So talking about it/reasoning out an answer can help break those preconceptions, misconceptions, whatever.

Also it beats just complaining about how stupid something is or isn't, in my book. Well that, and I've come to enjoy mental puzzles like this.