Paralles dosnt mean a carbon copy but with a new crew. If they had used completly the same formular it would have been crap and repetativeOberleutnant wrote:Yes, parallels to TWOK were completely intentional. This was stated several times in interviews by the people involved in making of the Nemesis, especially by the script writer John Logan.Hades wrote:How do you know they were trying to parallel TWOK??? Its this based on someone who worked on the film saying so in an interview or you just asuming it from watching the film itself?
@ Alyeska
Great work with your own version. Alas the real movie was not like this.
My idea for fixing Nemesis
Moderator: Vympel
If at first you dont succeed.... destroy all evidence you ever tried
Thats the problem. They tried to make a carbon copy of the final product and it FAILED. Nemesis is an attempt to copy what TWOK was. Nemesis SHOULD have been a copy of the style that created TWOK. Using the same line of reasoning to create Nemesis would have done wonders. Even better, the plot wouldn't have been near so similar.Hades wrote:Paralles dosnt mean a carbon copy but with a new crew. If they had used completly the same formular it would have been crap and repetativeOberleutnant wrote:Yes, parallels to TWOK were completely intentional. This was stated several times in interviews by the people involved in making of the Nemesis, especially by the script writer John Logan.Hades wrote:How do you know they were trying to parallel TWOK??? Its this based on someone who worked on the film saying so in an interview or you just asuming it from watching the film itself?
@ Alyeska
Great work with your own version. Alas the real movie was not like this.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
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Gil Hamilton
- Tipsy Space Birdie
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Parallel does not mean copy. It means using the same styles and ideas that made a previous story work. On of the reason TWoK worked so well is because it was a personal match of wits between foes with history with each other and that it tied up the loose end left by a TOS episode in a spectactular way. Using Sela (and sort of finishing up the loose end left by "Unification", which to my knowledge was never touched again) would have paralleled TWoK without copying it. It would have been a very good movie and would have been a spectactular finale to the TNG/DS9/VOY era of StarTrek, sort of in the same way Undiscovered Country was an "End of History" film as well.Hades wrote:Paralles dosnt mean a carbon copy but with a new crew. If they had used completly the same formular it would have been crap and repetative
Nemesis had alot of promise as the last StarTrek film, but all it did was end the TNG era with a whimper and very little actually changed in the universe (Riker accepts a command post, finally, but that's about it).
Alyeska, I don't like your version either, and its not because I think you're a dick.
Nemesis blew dog for all the reasons already repeated in your thread. You're trying to plug up the cracks in the same type of story. That's not what Trek needs. It needs a movie about awe and exploration, and real triumph over something. If good fiction has taught us anything, its that the bad guys aren't ALWAYS Snidely Whiplash twirling his moustache.
If Nemesis could have saved itself ANYWHERE, it would have had Picard talking Shinzom into surrendering, thus making Picard a hero on his own terms rather than trying to step into Kirk's shoes.
Nemesis blew dog for all the reasons already repeated in your thread. You're trying to plug up the cracks in the same type of story. That's not what Trek needs. It needs a movie about awe and exploration, and real triumph over something. If good fiction has taught us anything, its that the bad guys aren't ALWAYS Snidely Whiplash twirling his moustache.
If Nemesis could have saved itself ANYWHERE, it would have had Picard talking Shinzom into surrendering, thus making Picard a hero on his own terms rather than trying to step into Kirk's shoes.
"Brian, if I parked a supertanker in Central Park, painted it neon orange, and set it on fire, it would be less obvious than your stupidity." --RedImperator
Well part of a good Trek movie usualy involves some sort of action. Then again Undiscovered Country does do an incredible job AND ends with a degree of peace. I still think replacing Schinzon with Sela and including Spock could make for a damned fine movie. There can be peace with the Romulans, REAL peace. I suppose a clever writer could even have Spock talking down Sela. Regardless, I think Nemesis should in the very minimum have involved Sela. Spock doesn't need to be there, or it could be Spock's public funeral on Romulus that entices the Enterprise across the neutral zone. Though you make a good point. Ending on a brighter note while avoiding the bad-guy going down in a blaze of glory can make for a powerful movie.Lord Poe wrote:Alyeska, I don't like your version either, and its not because I think you're a dick.
Nemesis blew dog for all the reasons already repeated in your thread. You're trying to plug up the cracks in the same type of story. That's not what Trek needs. It needs a movie about awe and exploration, and real triumph over something. If good fiction has taught us anything, its that the bad guys aren't ALWAYS Snidely Whiplash twirling his moustache.
If Nemesis could have saved itself ANYWHERE, it would have had Picard talking Shinzom into surrendering, thus making Picard a hero on his own terms rather than trying to step into Kirk's shoes.
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
Simply repeating the same styles over and over though gets boring. They need to bring out diffrent movies each time!! ones that are competly diffrent from previous ones.Alyeska wrote:Thats the problem. They tried to make a carbon copy of the final product and it FAILED. Nemesis is an attempt to copy what TWOK was. Nemesis SHOULD have been a copy of the style that created TWOK. Using the same line of reasoning to create Nemesis would have done wonders. Even better, the plot wouldn't have been near so similar.Hades wrote:Paralles dosnt mean a carbon copy but with a new crew. If they had used completly the same formular it would have been crap and repetativeOberleutnant wrote: Yes, parallels to TWOK were completely intentional. This was stated several times in interviews by the people involved in making of the Nemesis, especially by the script writer John Logan.
@ Alyeska
Great work with your own version. Alas the real movie was not like this.
Any way this argument could go on for ever. I like the movie, you didnt. But at least admit this, it was better then Insurection
If at first you dont succeed.... destroy all evidence you ever tried
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Gil Hamilton
- Tipsy Space Birdie
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- Joined: 2002-07-04 05:47pm
- Contact:
A movie being better than Insurrection is like being a better runner than a parapelegic.Hades wrote:Simply repeating the same styles over and over though gets boring. They need to bring out diffrent movies each time!! ones that are competly diffrent from previous ones.
Any way this argument could go on for ever. I like the movie, you didnt. But at least admit this, it was better then Insurection
Do you have any idea what you are saying? Had they followed the IDEA of TWOK we would have watched an ORIGINAL movie that was very well made. You bitch and whine about how it would be a "COPY of TWOK!" ignoring the fact that the Nemesis we saw was a fucking carbon copy! Had they approached Nemesis in the way we are suggesting it would have been LESS of a copy then Nemesis came out as and would have been MORE and BETTER then what Nemesis came out as.Hades wrote:Simply repeating the same styles over and over though gets boring. They need to bring out diffrent movies each time!! ones that are competly diffrent from previous ones.
Any way this argument could go on for ever. I like the movie, you didnt. But at least admit this, it was better then Insurection
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
I take it you missed the part where every single writer said they were copying TWOK? I guess you missed how they tried a direct copy with the Kirk-Khan conflict to a Picard-Schinzon conflict. End the movie in a big space battle and a one-to-one battle. Kill off a main character who sacrafices himself to save the many... The parrelles are so similar its almost revolting. My idea for the movie would be vastly different in many ways and would have a nice three way conflict (Picard, Data, Sela) bare minimum.Hades wrote:Nemisis was not a copy of anything as far as i could tell. It was an original consept with the right mix of action and drama
"If the facts are on your side, pound on the facts. If the law is on your side, pound on the law. If neither is on your side, pound on the table."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
"The captain claimed our people violated a 4,000 year old treaty forbidding us to develop hyperspace technology. Extermination of our planet was the consequence. The subject did not survive interrogation."
Maybe they tried.....and failedAlyeska wrote:I take it you missed the part where every single writer said they were copying TWOK? .Hades wrote:Nemisis was not a copy of anything as far as i could tell. It was an original consept with the right mix of action and drama
Alyeska wrote:I guess you missed how they tried a direct copy with the Kirk-Khan conflict to a Picard-Schinzon conflict.
Debatable. I would have said the Picard-Borg queen conflict was more similar to picard-schinzon
All good movies end dramatically.Alyeska wrote: End the movie in a big space battle and a one-to-one battle.
ill give ya that oneAlyeska wrote: Kill off a main character who sacrafices himself to save the many... .
If at first you dont succeed.... destroy all evidence you ever tried