Ultimate Federation Weapon - Of course they never used it.

[Darth Wong]

There is still the fact that it was accelerating. That is why the Enterprise had to travel through the wave rather than around it. There was no time to travel around, only through.

Geometrically, a soliton wave will appear to accelerate as its channel narrows. Air does the same thing, hence the venturi effect. No mystical energy from nowhere is required.

[Ted C]

That's why deep-water waves of only a few metres height become towering tidal waves as they approach shore. They haven't actually gained an iota of energy; they are merely being reconfigured. It only LOOKS like they've gained energy to a scientifically naive observer.

Geometrically, a soliton wave will appear to accelerate as its channel narrows. Air does the same thing, hence the venturi effect. No mystical energy from nowhere is required.

Could the soliton wave's behavior be explained by the existence of a sort of "sandbar" in subspace, then? The wave didn't actually gain any energy, but more of it's energy became manifest in normal space?

If so, it's possible that the wave would have subsided once it left the "shallow place" it was crossing. It might also explain how the accident occurred: the designers didn't really know enough about localized variations in subspace to predict this behavior.

It would also make the technology relatively useless as a weapon.

[Embracer Of Darkness]

Just read the above couple of posts.

If that's what the writers were thinking, then yes, useless.

As we don't know what the writers were thinking, we'll have to leave it at that.

[Darth Wong]

Actually, I would like to thank "Embracer of Darkness" and Alyeska and DocMoriartty for prompting me to think about the soliton wave in more detail. Almost as if by accident, I've managed to construct a workable theory for what we saw in that episode which employs real scientific principles and does not rely upon the characters' silly interpretation of simply gaining energy from nowhere.

Yes, it requires a "subspace sandbar", as Ted Collins put it, but that's really no sillier than the idea of a superluminally extended warp field itself, and it's a helluva lot better than a wave which just gains energy for no reason.

When I add these ruminations to my site, I intend to credit you all unless you object.

[Embracer Of Darkness]

Actually, I would like to thank "Embracer of Darkness" and Alyeska and DocMoriartty for prompting me to think about the soliton wave in more detail. Almost as if by accident, I've managed to construct a workable theory for what we saw in that episode which employs real scientific principles and does not rely upon the characters' silly interpretation of simply gaining energy from nowhere.

Yes, it requires a "subspace sandbar", as Ted Collins put it, but that's really no sillier than the idea of a superluminally extended warp field itself, and it's a helluva lot better than a wave which just gains energy for no reason.

When I add these ruminations to my site, I intend to credit you all unless you object.

No problem, it was a very interesting discussion. If/when you credit me (you may) make sure to include me as the annoying one (joke).

[Alyeska]

When I add these ruminations to my site, I intend to credit you all unless you object.

Not a problem here.

[Ender]

I just want to make the comparrison to global warming here:

There is evidence it is increasing. However, it also turned out that the scientists making the precdictions were totally wrong.

[Ted C]

When I add these ruminations to my site, I intend to credit you all unless you object.

No objection

[Wrath]

that wave was designed to move objecsts yeah?

so when it hit the planet it would try and push that planet to warp would it not, and would that in turn not cause said planet to self distruct?.

from what I can remeber the drone fell part due to stress rather then anything the wave did so how much stress would be placed on the planet when a wave traveling warp 9+ hit it?

[JodoForce]

Since accident caused this warp shell to become so dangerous in the eyes of the Enterprise crew, it's quite plausible that if further research was made to make the warp shell *deliberately* feed on subspace as much as possible, it could become a planet-killer weapon.

[Ted C]

that wave was designed to move objecsts yeah?

so when it hit the planet it would try and push that planet to warp would it not, and would that in turn not cause said planet to self distruct?.

from what I can remeber the drone fell part due to stress rather then anything the wave did so how much stress would be placed on the planet when a wave traveling warp 9+ hit it?

Since accident caused this warp shell to become so dangerous in the eyes of the Enterprise crew, it's quite plausible that if further research was made to make the warp shell *deliberately* feed on subspace as much as possible, it could become a planet-killer weapon.

You guys are SO late to the party.

[Wrath]

yeah I know was on spacebattles argueing about Dune, forgot to check this forum

[JodoForce]

so...?

[Ted C]

so...?

So Wrath's questions are already answered, and the prevailing theory of the Soliton Wave's behavior refutes your assertion of "feeding on subspace".

[Typhonis 1]

if we take the tidalk wave aspect one step farther could it be argued that gravity was changing the shape of the Soliton wave like a coast will do a tidal wave??? seemss to be the simplest explanation

[Setesh]

just a thought but since we 'know' that subspace is 'damaged' by cullumative warp travel could areas that are more 'worn' then others be causing the channeling effect? I seem to remember that the lauch site and the destination being trading partners or something so there would have been a lot of traffic between them before hand.

[Darth Wong]

just a thought but since we 'know' that subspace is 'damaged' by cullumative warp travel could areas that are more 'worn' then others be causing the channeling effect? I seem to remember that the lauch site and the destination being trading partners or something so there would have been a lot of traffic between them before hand.

Interesting iteration upon the theory. It would explain why the effect did not behave as they expected. It was supposed to be contained in a channel but instead, the channel narrowed unexpectedly, thus causing the wave to accelerate and become more intense.

[Alyeska]

just a thought but since we 'know' that subspace is 'damaged' by cullumative warp travel could areas that are more 'worn' then others be causing the channeling effect? I seem to remember that the lauch site and the destination being trading partners or something so there would have been a lot of traffic between them before hand.

Interesting iteration upon the theory. It would explain why the effect did not behave as they expected. It was supposed to be contained in a channel but instead, the channel narrowed unexpectedly, thus causing the wave to accelerate and become more intense.

I still see weapon applications to this. If they can scale it up OR fire it through routes that condense it greatly, these could be effective against an enemy. In the very least it would require enemy resources to defend their planets against such a device. Imagine being able to fire 100 MT shots against an enemy planet at will.

[Darth Wong]

I still see weapon applications to this. If they can scale it up OR fire it through routes that condense it greatly, these could be effective against an enemy. In the very least it would require enemy resources to defend their planets against such a device. Imagine being able to fire 100 MT shots against an enemy planet at will.

Three words: long range torpedoes.

[Alyeska]

I still see weapon applications to this. If they can scale it up OR fire it through routes that condense it greatly, these could be effective against an enemy. In the very least it would require enemy resources to defend their planets against such a device. Imagine being able to fire 100 MT shots against an enemy planet at will.

Three words: long range torpedoes.

That would require putting drive systems on a torpedo. They would become nothing more then warp pods, shuttles with anti-matter containment systems. I think those would be easier to intercept. However, if you can speed them up to a point where interception is difficult, such a weapon system would be nice.

[Wrath]

That would require putting drive systems on a torpedo. They would become nothing more then warp pods, shuttles with anti-matter containment systems. I think those would be easier to intercept. However, if you can speed them up to a point where interception is difficult, such a weapon system would be nice.

there have been long range missiles seen in star trek though, they don't appear to be mass use weapons though.

[SPOOFE]

That would require putting drive systems on a torpedo. They would become nothing more then warp pods, shuttles with anti-matter containment systems.

The Cardassians thought of that, and their design was HUGE (and carried a relatively tiny payload, t'boot).

[Ted C]

just a thought but since we 'know' that subspace is 'damaged' by cullumative warp travel could areas that are more 'worn' then others be causing the channeling effect? I seem to remember that the lauch site and the destination being trading partners or something so there would have been a lot of traffic between them before hand.

Interesting iteration upon the theory. It would explain why the effect did not behave as they expected. It was supposed to be contained in a channel but instead, the channel narrowed unexpectedly, thus causing the wave to accelerate and become more intense.

To expand further upon that though, "New Ground" occurs in season five around stardate 45376.3. "Force of Nature" occurs in season seven around stardate 47310.2.

In other words, the Federation was unaware of the effect warp engines were having on subspace at the time they tested the soliton wave propulsion system.

[Setesh]

I still see weapon applications to this. If they can scale it up OR fire it through routes that condense it greatly, these could be effective against an enemy. In the very least it would require enemy resources to defend their planets against such a device. Imagine being able to fire 100 MT shots against an enemy planet at will.

Three words: long range torpedoes.

That would require putting drive systems on a torpedo. They would become nothing more then warp pods, shuttles with anti-matter containment systems. I think those would be easier to intercept. However, if you can speed them up to a point where interception is difficult, such a weapon system would be nice.

Depending on how difficult it is to detect an approaching soliton wave you could use it like the guass cannon in Semper Mars (its a book), you wouldn't even need it to be explosive, a group of solid 5 ton iron I beams accelerated to around 50%c then warp driven by the wave to within a few 100000km of the target they'll do the same damage as small nukes, granted they'd have to get the POS to work, though with solid Iron masses the stresses tearing them apart aren't so much of a problem.

[Wrath]

The Cardassians thought of that, and their design was HUGE (and carried a relatively tiny payload, t'boot).

yeah but fitting that missile with a cloaking device instead of all those weapons and shields would mean they could increase the pay load I would have thought