Finally watched Nemesis (spoilers)

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-06-02 09:17pm

Alyeska wrote:Nemesis could have been so much better if Sela had been used... So many different story angles... And even better use of the Romulans could still have had better DS9 mentions with clear stuff about the Dominion.

I agree, as that would have brought in elements from the series that actually made sense.

Let's assume, for a moment though, that the producers and writers decided that they wanted to use the idea of the Remans, even though they had never been alluded to in any way, shape, or form in the series itself. Now let's use DW's idea of having the E-E fighting to save Romulus instead of Earth (which I think is brilliant). From there it's pretty easy to build up more suspense (we don't know whether or not Romulus is going to be destroyed, at the end of the film), but more importantly you can allude again to Yesterday's Enterprise, which was clearly one of TNG's best episodes.

From the premise of using the Remans, you can ALSO bring in some of the Romulan villains. Wouldn't it be cool to see the Romulans beginning to finally come around, and work WITH Picard? Wouldn't it be cool to see the fruits of Spock's labor on Romulus? You can do all this, keep the Remans as villains, and present much more interesting moral questions:

Why should the UFP be protecting the Romulans? Particularly since they're trying to protect them from their former slaves, who they've obviously mistreated? What should happen with the Remans AFTER the fighting's over? What would happen to the AQ if the Remans succeeded in their task? These strike me as much more interesting than the "What is it to be human" that Odo, Spock, and Data have all attempted to answer through decades of science fiction episodes.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-06-02 09:23pm

Just toss in Spock and things get all the more interesting. I imagine Spock could either invite the Enterprise to Romulus (with Sela manipulating it without Spock knowing) or having Spock die (Sela also arranging this) to get the Enterprise to come to Romulus. That can set up much more of the movie. I think a climatic fleet battle could have been well done. Give Riker his own ship already and have him make the ultimate sacrafice with his first officer (Data) and wife. Worf could also have been present on board a Klingon ship that was also invited (Worf is a diplomat now thanks to DS9) and I can see Worf fighting to the death. You could have made this the "Generations Final Journey" and sacraficed half the crew in a meaningful manner and had Trek bow out gracefully.

That and they need proper technical advisors who have AUTHORITY over the writers to make sure scenes are done properly. That means proper refire rates constantly used in the space combat AND some real fucking military adivors for any infantry style fighting.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-06-02 09:41pm

I gotta hand it to you Wong, Picard fighting to save Romulus is brilliant! That answered something i felt was wrong from day one that I simply could not place. The writers wanted Picard to be alone in his battle, but running--alone--to save Earth is too overdone. I am tired of the "yours is the only ship out there" senario, not because I don't want to see a one on one battle ala TWOK, but because it is hard to rationalise why no one can help. This makes sense. If Picard was deep in Romulan territory standing, and pehaps falling, for his federation's ideals in defense of a long enemy... the questions it could ask go so far beyond basic, "what is human." I find this hard to put to words. Brilliant, Wong, that could have been great.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-03 12:48am

Is this Sela character from TNG or DS-9? I assume TNG, since I haven't seen a single ep (I can see the flames already)...

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-03 01:00am

Nemesis, like Enterprise, Voyager, and DS9 are all prime examples of what has been wrong with trek of late: No matter what you thought of it, it was a mere shadow of what it could have been.

Good setup, bood background, god characters... it's a writers dream. You could create wonders there.

Instead it all gets flushed away.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-06-03 01:01am

Crown wrote:Is this Sela character from TNG or DS-9? I assume TNG, since I haven't seen a single ep (I can see the flames already)...

She's from TNG. She was a recurring Romulan villainess.

And.... Say that again.... You haven't seen TNG?

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-03 01:08am

Master of Ossus wrote:
Crown wrote:Is this Sela character from TNG or DS-9? I assume TNG, since I haven't seen a single ep (I can see the flames already)...
She's from TNG. She was a recurring Romulan villainess.

And.... Say that again.... You haven't seen TNG?

I know, I know... My manager at work (also a close friend) is an ardent Trekkie, and he refuses to say anything good about SW until I see TNG... Mind you I did see 1 episode ages ago, and all that I can remember about it was Picard being, well 'soft' is the best adjective to use.

Then of course the next Trek series on TV was Voyager (I missed most of DS-9 because of B5, and I caught up on it on video rentals), and well, the less said about that the better.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-06-03 01:09am

Crown wrote:Is this Sela character from TNG or DS-9? I assume TNG, since I haven't seen a single ep (I can see the flames already)...

You've been here that long and you haven't seen TNG?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-06-03 02:52am

Actually since he hasn't seen it at all I can't say I blame him for not seeing any. Sure, I think he'd like a lot of it but the recent discussion about a DS9 episode made me think that a lot of what we as sci-fi fans accepted then was based on our knowledge of how expensive and/or time consuming sfx shots were. Just think how a lot of the people on this board consider the battle in "Yesterday's Enterprise" to be one of the best of TNG and then consider the kind of battles that routinely show up on shows like Andromeda. Granted there's more to TNG than spacebattles but I don't think he wants to go out and get all the seasons on DVD and just start watching from the begining unless he's really into "history".

I think that sugestions on the good stuff to watch would be a good idea and then if he wants to be completist about it he can see it all good and bad.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-03 09:53am

Tsyroc wrote:Granted there's more to TNG than spacebattles but I don't think he wants to go out and get all the seasons on DVD and just start watching from the begining unless he's really into "history".

I think that sugestions on the good stuff to watch would be a good idea and then if he wants to be completist about it he can see it all good and bad.

If he's got cable, he can just watch it on TNN.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2003-06-03 11:08pm

I actually I errr 'saw' Last Years Enterprise last night very, very good. Most impressed. Okay thread Hijack, which TNG episodes are a must see? Actually go to the thread I am making about it...

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-06-04 09:09am

Crown wrote:I actually I errr 'saw' Last Years Enterprise last night very, very good. Most impressed. Okay thread Hijack, which TNG episodes are a must see? Actually go to the thread I am making about it...

Its Yesterday's Enterprise, and that my friend is as good as they get. Although the Picard as a POW ("there are 4 lights!") 2-part episode was fantastic as well. We also get the pleasure of a visit from Capt. Edward Jellico.... i forget the name of that ep. though. Troi as a member of the Tal Shiar aboard a Romulan Warbird was good too.

there are a great many BAD episodes as well. Some were so bad i found them comical. i remember one in particular where Geordi is abducted by space retards and forced to upgrade their ship. and who can forget the shaka-zulu stick fighting episode......

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-06-04 10:01am

Crown wrote:I actually I errr 'saw' Last Years Enterprise last night very, very good. Most impressed. Okay thread Hijack, which TNG episodes are a must see? Actually go to the thread I am making about it...

There are several that are well done enough to watch.

Lets see...

Q Whoe (introduces the Borg)

Best of Both Worldls PT1&2 (concludes the Borg)

Data Lore

Decent PT1&2 (has Lore again)

Yesterdays Enterprise

Unification PT1&2 (For Spock and Sela)

The Wounded

All Good Things (series finale and very well done at that)

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-06-04 07:40pm

What about fucking TOMALAK? The one chance where the two rivals could have worked together in a glorious battle and they blew it!

And, of course, maybe get some fucking competent people in who can actually orchestrate a good space battle.

kmart · Post by **kmart** » 2003-06-05 03:57pm

Uraniun235 wrote: And, of course, maybe get some fucking competent people in who can actually orchestrate a good space battle.

Gotta love it. remember when the forward shields go to 10%? Right afterward, Riker orders to keep them bow-on to the Scimitar, but when they cut outside, we see the ship cross frame after the S, but then swerve around to give the baddies an extended flank shot. Somebody at DD didn't read the script, and obviously none of the micromanagers at Paramount gave a shit either.

I'd have much preferred seeing a dynamic move that had the E pivoting around the S while maintaining the bow-on position ... they gave the impression of these kinds of maneuvers more successfully back in the old OLD days, during ELAAN OF TROYIUS on TOS, even though it was just a block on a stick, with only a single ship element in frame most of the time.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-05 04:26pm

Screw sfx, Yesterday's Enterprise had more heart to that space battle than anything else Trek has ever produced.

kmart · Post by **kmart** » 2003-06-05 07:17pm

consequences wrote:Screw sfx, Yesterday's Enterprise had more heart to that space battle than anything else Trek has ever produced.

For me BALANCE OF TERROR and DOOMSDAY MACHINE have it beat hands down in the 'heart' department, but I grant you the 'that will be the day' line is one of those too-rare times when Stewart really delivered the goods. I wish they'd done a SEASON of eps in that alternate timeline, just so we could have some dramatic lighting and conflict on the E-D.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-06-05 07:25pm

Sorry, anything after TOS, you are correct.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-06-06 02:31pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Why should the UFP be protecting the Romulans? Particularly since they're trying to protect them from their former slaves, who they've obviously mistreated? What should happen with the Remans AFTER the fighting's over? What would happen to the AQ if the Remans succeeded in their task?

For an added twist, the Prime Directive would actually forbid Picard to get involved, just as it forbid direct involvement in the Klingon civil war in "Redemption". You could introduce an interesting bit of moral debate over what they should do...

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-06-06 03:37pm

Would it? The Remans seem to have warp drive so I don't know if the Prime Directive applies.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-06 03:51pm

neoolong wrote:Would it? The Remans seem to have warp drive so I don't know if the Prime Directive applies.

The Prime Directive still applies to civilizations after they achieve warp capability. So it could apply in this case. Like for instance with the Baku, they had warp capability and the federation was not allowed to interfere with their society(forcably remove them from the planet). The whole pre-warp thing is that they don't want to introduce and influence a society into interstellar society before they are ready.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-06 04:09pm

Which means there is the amusing implication that technological savvy is a perfect indicator of societal advancement.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-06-06 04:49pm

Not necesarily, there were a couple of good examples in TNG. The episode with the proto-vulcans than began worshipping "the Picard" and in the episode "First Contact" when a planet develops warp, Picard and Co. are sent to welcome them to the galactic neighborhood, but the leaders decided that they are not ready to join the neighborhood yet, so they put their warp program on hold to adjust their society to possibilities that the leaders believed would ruin their society if they just forced it upon the people. It should be noted that one of the major beliefs that was supposed to be a problem was the fact that the Malcorian's believed their planet to be the center of the universe and that everything rotated around it, how they were advanced enough to develop warp capability but not bright enough to look through a telescope and figure out they were wrong I don't know....