Just Watched Redemption!

[BenRG]

It's also possible that if the Federation sent ships to aid either side, Klingons on both sides would decide the Federation is trying to make themselves the kingmaker, and unite against them, so no matter who wins, the alliance would be flushed.

I have to disagree with that.

The Klingons in general were never really happy with K'mpec's decision to involve the Federation in his succession, so they were probably not entirely happy with the situation even given total non-interference. Gowron would always be seen as 'the Federation's choice' by some on the High Council no matter what happened. Remember we learn in TNG 'Unification' that he had to re-write history to remove the Federation's involvement from the entire event or lose considerable face.

You are also forgetting the 'honour' issue. The Klingons would respect the Federation for honouring their agreement to stand by the Empire in battle. They would disrespect them for hiding behind the letter of the law and let declared traitors rebel against the will of the High Council. Remember how quickly the Klingons turned against the Federation in DS9 season 4? That is how much importance they attached to the Federation being seen to be their allies, irrespective of the legal technicalities of the issue.

Ironically, if the Federation had openly supported Gowron during the Civil War, the Federation/Klingon war of DS9 season 4/5 might not have taken place. Certainly, Gowron would have been more willing to accept any reservations his allies had regarding the Cardassian campaign if he felt that they were real allies and not simply fair-weather friends who were likely to bail no matter what the real situation. The very real fact is that Gowron clearly interpreted the Federation's behaviour in the Civil War as cowardice and betrayal. That soured international relations and turned the invasion of Cardassian space into a watershed.

[CDiehl]

Look at it this way. No matter what the Federation did, the Klingons could spin it into a reason to distrust them. If they supported one side and that side won, the winner looks like the Federation's waterboy. If the Federation supported one side and that side lost, the winner ends the alliance and declares war. If the Federation does nothing, the winning side accuses the Federation of betrayal in order to appease hard-liners. No matter how the war goes, the Klingons can use the Federation as a convenient scapegoat to reunite their society. In such a situation, the best move for the Federation is just to stick to their policies, and be damned for what they really are.

About the idea that involvement in the civil war would have prevented the invasion of the Arcanus Sector, I say, Ha! They would have found or ginned up another phony bullshit excuse to sucker-punch the Federation over. They only have a couple centuries of war and distrust to pick from. And, let's gloss over how noble and honorable the Empire was when Gowron got up one day and decided to assault a Federation sector without provocation, with a flimsy and relinquished claim to it, and not even one "honorable" Klingon warrior spoke up in opposition. I would not rely on an empire's sense of honor to keep the peace; when it comes to a chance for glory, honor is negotiable. Yes, Gowron was given bad advice, but he chose to listen to it.

[BenRG]

About the idea that involvement in the civil war would have prevented the invasion of the Arcanus Sector, I say, Ha! They would have found or ginned up another phony bullshit excuse to sucker-punch the Federation over. They only have a couple centuries of war and distrust to pick from. And, let's gloss over how noble and honorable the Empire was when Gowron got up one day and decided to assault a Federation sector without provocation, with a flimsy and relinquished claim to it, and not even one "honorable" Klingon warrior spoke up in opposition. I would not rely on an empire's sense of honor to keep the peace; when it comes to a chance for glory, honor is negotiable. Yes, Gowron was given bad advice, but he chose to listen to it.

You are right that, if Gowron really wanted to break the treaty and attack, he would have found an excuse. However, if the Federation had already done something that caught the lower-caste Klingons' imagination by 'shedding blood at our side', he would have found it a lot harder to spin it. No matter how much of a smokescreen Klingon martial honour is at the highest societal level, there is no doubt that it has real force and influence at lower levels (why else would the idiots charge phaser rifles with Bat'leths?).

The problem with your arguments is that you are taking each event in isolation. What I am suggesting is that what we are seeing is a series of related events, each leading to the next. When the Federation did not openly support Gowron in the Civil War until Picard could provide proof positive of Romulan involvement (and even then, it was only the Romulans' unwillingness to force the Federation to show or fold that put their ringers out of the game), this led to a certain degree of suspicion at the highest level of the Klingon government about the Federation's motives, honour and reliability. When Captain Sisco (rightly) helped the democratic (!) Cardassian government escape the Klingons, this simply re-enforced Gowron's belief that the Federation was without honour and would betray the Empire whenever it suited them. Certainly, the Klingons would have been more likely to have consulted the Federation before invading Cardassia if they felt they were a reliable ally. This all left Gowron easy prey to the poison that the false Martok was dribbling in his ear, resulting in his abandoning the Khitomer Treaty and attacking the Arcanus Sector.

Also, without this previous (alleged) history of Federation dishonour, his political enemies would have used the abandonment of the treaty as a 'proof of dishonour' on his part and might have even openly challenged him. BTW - This is just a theory of mine, of course. I don't know how popular Gowron was among the ruling families of the Empire at that time.

[CDiehl]

I see what you mean about these events being related. I just don't think the Federaton should flush its principles and take sides in a civil war, just to kiss up to the Klingons, who should know better. I also think that regular Klingon troops fight the way they do because that is how they are trained. I would attribute their preference to a combination of ferocity and arrogance; they assume everyone else can be cowed when confronted by Klingons at close range.

[BenRG]

I would attribute their preference to a combination of ferocity and arrogance; they assume everyone else can be cowed when confronted by Klingons at close range.

Or, like certain fanatical fighting groups today, they genuinely think that their honour and ferocity in battle somehow makes them proof against nadion cascade reactions.