Limit on Constitution Class phasers

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Hello. I'm new here so bare with me. I'm just trying to straighten the facts.

I applaud your logic GAT but I see some things wrong with it.

Firstly, the Enterprise didn't merely have it's shields down. It was suffering from a severe lack of power, everything except secondaries down, and was running on impulse power only and barely had enough power just to get out of the atmosphere.

Barely had enough power to get out the atmosphere? That is still an impressive feat.

Secondly, that is an F-104C, which does not carry the Genie. It carries the Mk-28 which has a warhead of 1 megaton, not 1.5 kilotons. F-104's only carried Mk-28s.

As far as I know, the F-104 carried NO nuclear warheads. Post your proof.

Therefore your estimation of 75 kiloton max should be 50 megatons.

Also, Spock states that the damage might not be repairable under "current circumstances" (ie secondary impulse power only, no shields, etc) so its obvious there was no actual threat of irrepairable harm from the nuke, merely "damage". Which could be anything from someone dropping their food to superficial hull damage (a dent).

No, it means if they lost an impulse engine, they'd be in serious trouble. He says it would DAMAGE THEM SEVERELY!

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

In The Ultimate Computer during a wargame exercise, phasers are set to 1% power so they would do any damage. Shields were also lowered. Since hull shots would be possible, 1% phaser must be lower then .75 kilotons and 100% phasers must be lower then 75 kilotons

.75 KT's?

Is that the eqivalent to me throwing a rock?

That is equivalent to 750 tons of explosives!

[Vexx]

Barely had enough power to get out the atmosphere? That is still an impressive feat.

Yes it is an impressive feat, but keep in mind that ship routinely zips through space at FTL speeds which requires much, MUCH more power than simply escaping a planet's gravity.

As far as I know, the F-104 carried NO nuclear warheads. Post your proof.

K.

From www.military.cz:

The Starfighter won a large contract for NATO's next-generation multi-role fighter capable of delivering nuclear weapons

The F-104C was equipped to carry bombs or rocket pods on underwing and fuselage points. For nuclear strike, an MK-28 "special store" could be carried on a pylon underneath the fuselage.

http://www.military.cz/usa/air/post_war ... ist_en.htm

No, it means if they lost an impulse engine, they'd be in serious trouble. He says it would DAMAGE THEM SEVERELY!

They ALREADY were in serious trouble! They had ONLY secondary power and BARELY had the power to escape earth's atmosphere. Given that the ship routinely flies through space in the thousands of c's, that's quite a big problem.

I'm not disputing the fact that they would be seriously damaged. I'm just saying, the bomb was bigger, they were already severely power-deprived. Spock said himself they might not be able to repair the damage in their current state, implying that under normal circumstances, whatever damage was caused could be fixed by repair crews, so it couldn't have been that intense. Damaging, yes, severely damaging, yes, damaging enough to put the ship in danger of being destroyed even though it barely had the capability to escape the atmosphere, no.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

http://www.military.cz/usa/air/post_war ... ist_en.htm

I'm almost certain that's a bomb, not a missle!

They ALREADY were in serious trouble! They had ONLY secondary power and BARELY had the power to escape earth's atmosphere. Given that the ship routinely flies through space in the thousands of c's, that's quite a big problem.

Red Herring. Spock says a hit would cause serious damage.

I'm not disputing the fact that they would be seriously damaged. I'm just saying, the bomb was bigger, they were already severely power-deprived. Spock said himself they might not be able to repair the damage in their current state, implying that under normal circumstances, whatever damage was caused could be fixed by repair crews, so it couldn't have been that intense. Damaging, yes, severely damaging, yes, damaging enough to put the ship in danger of being destroyed even though it barely had the capability to escape the atmosphere, no.

Irrelevant. The fact is it caused SOME sort of damage, which means it MUST be more powerful then 1% phasers, unless Starfleet actually use live weapons against each other!

[Howedar]

I speak with absolute authority when I say that the AIR-2 Genie was the most powerful air-to-air weapon ever devised or constructed. It was, as GAT said, 1.5KT.

Vexx refers to a freefall nuclear bomb, which most certainly could not be used against Enterprise.

[Vexx]

I'm almost certain that's a bomb, not a missle!

Vexx refers to a freefall nuclear bomb, which most certainly could not be used against Enterprise.

That plane that attacked the Enterprise was an F-104. The only nuclear weapon the F-104 carries was the Mk-12 and the Mk-28 bombs, not the Genie AA nuke rocket. This sort of thing can't be left to speculation; it actually did exist and has a set weaponry. If that F-104 had a nuke, it could only have been the Mk-12/Mk-28. I don't want to seem arguementative but you can't change an actual historical fact to suit your beliefs.

Red Herring. Spock says a hit would cause serious damage.

I don't know what a red herring is and I'm not sure I want to, since it seems like a phrase coined for common sense. Serious damage at secondary impulse power after already suffering major damage from being flung through space and time is not the same as serious damage at full strength and full capacity.

Irrelevant. The fact is it caused SOME sort of damage, which means it MUST be more powerful then 1% phasers, unless Starfleet actually use live weapons against each other!

1% phasers at secondary power mode yes. Whether or not it would do damage if the Enterprise had been at full power with all of its systems working is something else.

Anyway I DO think 75 kilotons is a good low-end estimate of phaser firepower, and 50 megatons more of a mid-high end figure.

[Sir Sirius]

Red Herring. Spock says a hit would cause serious damage.

I don't know what a red herring is and I'm not sure I want to, since it seems like a phrase coined for common sense.

Red Herring, read and learn.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

That plane that attacked the Enterprise was an F-104. The only nuclear weapon the F-104 carries was the Mk-12 and the Mk-28 bombs, not the Genie AA nuke rocket. This sort of thing can't be left to speculation; it actually did exist and has a set weaponry. If that F-104 had a nuke, it could only have been the Mk-12/Mk-28. I don't want to seem arguementative but you can't change an actual historical fact to suit your beliefs.

Hey Mr. Stupid? YOU CAN'T USE A BOMB ON AN AIRCRAFT! So either this fighter was modified to carry a Genie, or Spock was worried about the Sidewinders.

I don't know what a red herring is and I'm not sure I want to, since it seems like a phrase coined for common sense. Serious damage at secondary impulse power after already suffering major damage from being flung through space and time is not the same as serious damage at full strength and full capacity.

GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD. It would cause DAMAGE! It doesn't matter how much, the fact is it must be more powerful then 1/100 phasers!

1% phasers at secondary power mode yes. Whether or not it would do damage if the Enterprise had been at full power with all of its systems working is something else.

The Enterprise had all its systems working dumbass. 1% phaser is from a different episode. Do you have reading problems?!

Anyway I DO think 75 kilotons is a good low-end estimate of phaser firepower, and 50 megatons more of a mid-high end figure.

50 megatons is fucking higher then the E-D photon torpedoes!

[Howedar]

Anyway I DO think 75 kilotons is a good low-end estimate of phaser firepower, and 50 megatons more of a mid-high end figure.

75kt is in fact a high-end number.

[seanrobertson]

75kt is in fact a high-end number.

Yep

It's also substantiated by a LOT of the things we see.

The phaser cuts on the hull of the E refit in "The Wrath of Khan" might've been good to a tune of a kiloton per second or single-digit terawattage.

Phaser fire was evidently totally worthless in trying to destroy the Planet Killer, even if it was shot directly in its maw...otherwise, why would they waste one of roughly a dozen Constitution-class heavy cruisers on the thing? If they were capable of just 2 50 megaton bursts, Stargazer would've been just thrown away for no good reason.

Also, if one accepts ENT as canon, the E-nil's upper-limit phaser firepower of ~310 TW would be some 620 to 3,875 times greater than the NX-01's individual phase cannons, perhaps moreso (damn stupid Reed...for all we know, his 80 or 500 GJ figures are delivered over the course of several seconds, indicating even LESSER firepower).

Subjectively speaking, that sounds a bit--no, a LOT--fucking dumb. The Constitutions came along in the 2240s according to some sources. I'm to believe that, in 90 years, a weapon of similar technology AND size must be well over thousands of times more powerful?

Even with the 75 kT/sec. upper-limit, this would mean that, between ENT and TOS, we might see weapons increase in power by up to around 400,000%.

How would anyone keep pace with them at that rate? Where is that improvement coming from? It's absurd. Even if we ran with more reasonable figures--counting both ENT's fwd. emitters for a total of maybe a terawatt, going by Reed's highest figures--that's still over 300,000%. They'd easily and consistently be able to double their maximum firepower in under a year at that rate.

That doesn't fit with later Trek, in which increasing shield strength by 100% sometimes takes decades of work. Weapons would quickly outpace advancements in shield technology, to the point that they'd be worthless.

It also doesn't fit with the fact that, by and large, more powerful phaser-type weapons invariably involve FAR larger weapons.

The strips on a Galaxy-class starship consist of hundreds of emitters; in total volume and mass, they must dwarf the armaments of TOS-era ships, yet they're not hundreds of times more powerful either. (Could you imagine the E-D taking on hundreds of Excelsiors or similar ships? )

This strongly suggests that to get a significantly more powerful phaser, you've got to build ever larger emitters.

I'm sure that, between Archer's and Kirk's time, the development of a true phaser weapon, vs. a more crude "phase cannon," skew this a HAIR since NDF might be more strongly involved in the former case, but POWER is what we're concerned about here. It's not something that can just magically be pulled out of nowhere, not without extreme and ridiculously rapid advancements in all other areas to keep up that kind of pace.

This is just more good proof that the Super Connie people are kidding themselves.

[Vexx]

Phaser fire was evidently totally worthless in trying to destroy the Planet Killer, even if it was shot directly in its maw...otherwise, why would they waste one of roughly a dozen Constitution-class heavy cruisers on the thing? If they were capable of just 2 50 megaton bursts, Stargazer would've been just thrown away for no good reason.

I believe the ineffectiveness of phasers was due to what the Planet Killer was made up of, so it wouldn't really matter what strength the phasers were if the target is immune to it. Also speaking of that episode, I vaguely remember the E-Prime being fired upon by the thing, evidently the same weapon that can destroy planets. I highly doubt it was at the same strength, but it couldn't have been infinitely less powerful. Even if it was 1% the power it uses to destroy a planet, that's still pretty impressive. Anyway thats not the issue.

The Enterprise had all its systems working dumbass. 1% phaser is from a different episode. Do you have reading problems?!

1: I don't see why you're getting so upset and calling me names. Are you a child or something?

2: You're not making sense. In the episode in question, with the F-104, the Enterprise was already severely damaged and had a severe power shortage problem. In the episode with the 1% phasers, the Enterprise wasn't heavily damaged, it was perfectly fine.

Hey Mr. Stupid? YOU CAN'T USE A BOMB ON AN AIRCRAFT! So either this fighter was modified to carry a Genie, or Spock was worried about the Sidewinders.

I wasn't aware that the Enterprise is an aircraft. Free-fall bombs are routinely used on naval ships of roughly the same size as the Enterprise. But you're ignoring the fact that THE F-104 DID NOT CARRY THE GENIE, AND A SIDEWINDER IS NOT A NUCLEAR WEAPON. That's not from the episode, thats not conjectural or circumstantial. That's a solid fact. You can't change fact to suit your estimate on phaser firepower, and by doing so you basically prove how much of a liar you are, and I don't argue with liars. So you might as well not bother, I'm not going to listen to whatever else you have to say.

[Uraniun235]

Hey Mr. Stupid? YOU CAN'T USE A BOMB ON AN AIRCRAFT! So either this fighter was modified to carry a Genie, or Spock was worried about the Sidewinders.

Spock says, and I quote DIRECT from the episode: "Aircraft is an interceptor. Equipped with missiles, possibly armed with nuclear warheads."

Spock doesn't know what the aircraft is armed with. He may not even know what type of aircraft it is or what it's capabilities are.

[SPOOFE]

I believe the ineffectiveness of phasers was due to what the Planet Killer was made up of, so it wouldn't really matter what strength the phasers were if the target is immune to it.

Learn how to read, my dear sir. He specifically mention the Planet Killer's maw... it's "mouth", to the plebians in the audience. He did NOT mean its "hull". The Planet Killer was destroyed by an explosion of only a few dozen megatons in its maw... if phasers were capable of anywhere NEAR that level of firepower, they would have been used.

Also speaking of that episode, I vaguely remember the E-Prime being fired upon by the thing, evidently the same weapon that can destroy planets.

It's never said that it can "destoy" planets. Only that it carves up planets and eats them. A timeframe is NEVER specified, and as such, firepower cannot be derived.

1: I don't see why you're getting so upset and calling me names. Are you a child or something?

He's getting upset because you're not paying very good attention to his posts. I do not mean to be insulting, but I have to ask... is English not your native language? You're missing a lot of information in someone else's posts, indicating that you're either not fully reading someone's post before responding, or you just don't fully understand it. If it's the former, I would suggest that you read someone's post more carefully... it's considered quite rude to just gloss over what they say.

2: You're not making sense. In the episode in question, with the F-104, the Enterprise was already severely damaged and had a severe power shortage problem. In the episode with the 1% phasers, the Enterprise wasn't heavily damaged, it was perfectly fine.

In the "travel back in time" episode, the hull is still perfectly sound. This provides us with a rough upper limit at what their unprotected hulls should be able to withstand. In the "Ultimate Computer" episode, the fact that they dial down to 1% phasers indicates that anything higher could pose a threat to the other ship. Remember, this is a war game... they want to make absolutely sure that they don't harm the other ship, EVEN IF, by freak accident, the phaser shot manages to strike hull. Ergo, they dialed down the phasers to a level that would be safe even if it struck bare hull.

From there, we can extrapolate a rough parity between the two episodes. Now, GAT does make one mistake, in my opinion, of assuming that phaser power dials down linearly... however, that estimate can't be off by more than an order of magnitude, in my opinion.

I wasn't aware that the Enterprise is an aircraft.

No offense, my dear sir, but that's a stupid response. Even if the Enterprise is not technically an "aircraft", it was in a position where it was BEHAVING as one. The point he was making was that you can only use bombs on GROUND targets, and the Enterprise was most certainly not on the ground.

Free-fall bombs are routinely used on naval ships of roughly the same size as the Enterprise.

Which are on the surface, NOT up in the air.

But you're ignoring the fact that THE F-104 DID NOT CARRY THE GENIE, AND A SIDEWINDER IS NOT A NUCLEAR WEAPON .

No, he is not. Those facts are irrelevent. What IS relevent is that Spock believed that the F-104 might carry a nuclear weapon, and that this weapon posed a significant risk to the ship.

Think of it this way... if you believed that a letter you received in the mail contained anthrax, how would you react to it?

Remember, it's entirely Spock's belief that's the crux of the argument, here. He believed that the F-104 posed a risk, even if we, as the audience, know otherwise. He believed that it carried nuclear weapons, even if it did not. He believed that these nuclear weapons posed a threat, even if they didn't exist. The important thing is that Spock is saying that a low-kiloton nuke posed a significant risk to the Enterprise.

[seanrobertson]

I believe the ineffectiveness of phasers was due to what the Planet Killer was made up of, so it wouldn't really matter what strength the phasers were if the target is immune to it.

I agree with you to an extent.

The hull of the PK was pretty much invulnerable to phaser fire.

However, the Constellation was detonated inside the weapon's maw. Its energy release was 97 point-something megatons.

If the E-nil's phasers were barely even into 10s of megatons/sec. range, they should've had no reason to sacrifice the Constel.

Also speaking of that episode, I vaguely remember the E-Prime being fired upon by the thing, evidently the same weapon that can destroy planets. I highly doubt it was at the same strength, but it couldn't have been infinitely less powerful. Even if it was 1% the power it uses to destroy a planet, that's still pretty impressive. Anyway thats not the issue.

Indeed, we don't know the power of the weapon. 1% might be very generous. And as I recall, the PK itself didn't blow apart planets like the DS. It did a hell of a job, but something more akin to slicing parts of it up for consumption.

We might regard it as a giant version of what the Borg do when they tractored colonies into space.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The Enterprise had all its systems working dumbass. 1% phaser is from a different episode. Do you have reading problems?!

1: I don't see why you're getting so upset and calling me names. Are you a child or something?

2: You're not making sense. In the episode in question, with the F-104, the Enterprise was already severely damaged and had a severe power shortage problem. In the episode with the 1% phasers, the Enterprise wasn't heavily damaged, it was perfectly fine.

Let's make this simple.

1. In Tommorow is Yesterday the F-104 could damage the Enterprise.
2. In The Ultimate Computer 1% phasers would only nudge a ship.

I wasn't aware that the Enterprise is an aircraft. Free-fall bombs are routinely used on naval ships of roughly the same size as the Enterprise.

Please tell me how that has ANYTHING to do with this situation.

But you're ignoring the fact that THE F-104 DID NOT CARRY THE GENIE, AND A SIDEWINDER IS NOT A NUCLEAR WEAPON. That's not from the episode, thats not conjectural or circumstantial. That's a solid fact. You can't change fact to suit your estimate on phaser firepower, and by doing so you basically prove how much of a liar you are, and I don't argue with liars. So you might as well not bother, I'm not going to listen to whatever else you have to say.

I'm a liar? You're claiming you can use a BOMB on a flying object! This is impossible. Spock was worried about being hit by a nuclear warhead. Therefore, according to his information, he thought the aircraft following him had a nuke capable of hitting the Enterprise. AFAIK, the only nuclear air to air weapon the United States used was the Genie.

[Sabastian Tombs]

[quote="Vexx] You can't change fact to suit your estimate on phaser firepower, and by doing so you basically prove how much of a liar you are, and I don't argue with liars. So you might as well not bother, I'm not going to listen to whatever else you have to say.[/quote]



Hopefully this means Vexx is going away?

[Sir Sirius]

It most likely means that he'll stick his fingers in his ears and chant, "I can't hear you, I can't hear you, I can't hear you..."

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The F-104C was a tactical variant, but the centre pylon was modified in Project GRINDSTONE to allow for an additional variety of ordnance to be carried. I'm going to ask some people if it's possible that one or two AIM-4s could perhaps be carried hence.

[Soulman]

I'm a liar? You're claiming you can use a BOMB on a flying object! This is impossible. Spock was worried about being hit by a nuclear warhead. Therefore, according to his information, he thought the aircraft following him had a nuke capable of hitting the Enterprise. AFAIK, the only nuclear air to air weapon the United States used was the Genie.

But does Spock know that the only AA nuclear missile used by the US was the Genie? As he couldn't even identify the aircraft as an F-104I very much doubt it. Therefore he could only have made generalised assumptions based on:
1. Technology in the 1960's
2. The size of missile that could conceivably be carried by a small aircraft with that technology and therefore the size of the warhead.
Working with that information he probably could've come up with a high end estimate of maybe the low tens of kilotons (less?) for the warhead.

Unless of course he had information about every weapons system ever used on Earth like how much armour the 88mm on the Tiger could penetrate or the amount of explosives in a WW-1 hand grenade.

The fact that he said a fighter that never carried a nuclear missile could be carrying one puts whether he knew the strength of the warhead on the Genie (or whether the Genie existed) into doubt.

[SPOOFE]

But does Spock know that the only AA nuclear missile used by the US was the Genie? As he couldn't even identify the aircraft as an F-104I very much doubt it.

He wouldn't have even known about the possibility of the fighter carrying a nuclear weapon unless he did a quick check in the computer's databank. Such a databank - if we are to assume that the Enterprise's computer had the information capacity of Google - would have mentioned kiloton-level yields.

But let's be generous... let's say that Spock was concerned about, say, 10 kiloton nukes. Using the OP's equation, that still puts their phaser limitations at 500 kilotons.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

He wouldn't have even known about the possibility of the fighter carrying a nuclear weapon unless he did a quick check in the computer's databank. Such a databank - if we are to assume that the Enterprise's computer had the information capacity of Google - would have mentioned kiloton-level yields.

But let's be generous... let's say that Spock was concerned about, say, 10 kiloton nukes. Using the OP's equation, that still puts their phaser limitations at 500 kilotons.

Well, it's possible that the Enterprise's sensors detected fissile material on the fighter.

[Soulman]

Well, it's possible that the Enterprise's sensors detected fissile material on the fighter.

Which would've been from a bomb. What yields did those bombs have?

[Lord Poe]

The fact that he said a fighter that never carried a nuclear missile could be carrying one puts whether he knew the strength of the warhead on the Genie (or whether the Genie existed) into doubt.

And again, you're missing the point Spock assumed the plane had a nuclear warhead onboard. He made his assumption BASED on this belief.

[The Silence and I]

Spock clearly was lacking in his knowledge of the weapons from that time period. He identified the F-104_ as an interceptor, when it wasn't. He stated said craft may carry a nuclear warhead, and does carry missiles: "Aircraft is an interceptor. Equipped with missiles, possibly armed with nuclear warheads." When he should know that the F-104_ does not carry nuclear missiles, but that the F-104c carries a nuclear bomb. Given this, I doubt he even knows what a Genie is, let alone its exact yield. And do you err on the side of caution? YES!! YOU DO, IT IS LOGICAL!!! So, for all he knows the missiles could have been a dozen KT or maybie, though not likely, more. He really should know it would be low KT at most, but he would assume the high-end of what he thinks they could be capable of, as he has already shown that he does not in fact know for sure.

And of course a starship at low power has a weaker hull than one at full power... because of Structural Integrity Fields;

Four phaser hits did this to a power-less D-7:

Some debris flew out in a whimpy explosion, and the red glowy part dissapeared ala TOS phasers... Four hits phaserized most of a powerless D-7!!

Then in TWOK, repeated phaser hits did this:

What? Did the phasers become weaker by orders of magnitude? Unlikely. The only difference was this ship, the Ent-nil, had SIF, which reduced the damage greatly. A powerless hull would indeed be damaged severly by a low KT explosion, but a powered hull? Probably not.

[Soulman]

The fact that he said a fighter that never carried a nuclear missile could be carrying one puts whether he knew the strength of the warhead on the Genie (or whether the Genie existed) into doubt.

And again, you're missing the point Spock assumed the plane had a nuclear warhead onboard. He made his assumption BASED on this belief.

But did he know the strength of the warhead on the Genie? If not then the calc has to be revised upwards to reflect the max possible strength of a AA nuclear missile using 20th century technology. This may not be too much higher but saying that Spock knew the yield of a missile when he didn't identify the aircraft or that the aircraft couldn't carry the missile anyway is flawed.