Has the UFP learned the hard-way?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-16 07:43pm

So you suggest SF should have amassed a huge fleet on the Romulan border (thus being aggresive to the new regime who are making peace overtures), then later they should have sent this huge fleet to intercept Shizon (hoping hes insane enough to go after the Ent-E even if it has a 100 ships backing it up) and leave earth and the border undefended (thus allowing conventional Romulan forces to have free reign).

I cant say as I agree with your decision since I see alot of negatives and risky chances.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-16 07:58pm

TheDarkling wrote:So you suggest SF should have amassed a huge fleet on the Romulan border (thus being aggresive to the new regime who are making peace overtures), then later they should have sent this huge fleet to intercept Shizon (hoping hes insane enough to go after the Ent-E even if it has a 100 ships backing it up) and leave earth and the border undefended (thus allowing conventional Romulan forces to have free reign).

I cant say as I agree with your decision since I see alot of negatives and risky chances.

You're not paying attention. Here's what the UFP knew: they knew that a coup had installed Shinzon as the new leader of the RSE. They knew practically nothing about this leader. During all this time, they should have been mobilizing forces to move to the Neutral Zone. The Enterprise is dispatched from the Neutral Zone to Romulus by Admiral Janeway where it proceeds to sit for SEVENTEEN HOURS without anyone even calling them on the phone. During all this time, ships should have been moving to the Neutral Zone. The Enterprise then continues to sit while Picard and the senior staff beam over to meet Shinzon, who tells them NOTHING, and never even TALKS about negotiating with the UFP. During all this time, ships should have been moving to the Neutral Zone, because the UFP still has absolutely no idea what's going on. We later learn that Picard doesn't even trust Skippy. If Picard is able to contact SF command, they should be suspicious because Picard doesn't trust him and because by then he knew that Skippy was using a form of bio-terror weapon, and because he hadn't said anything about negotiations. They should have been moving ships to the Neutral Zone. If Picard was UNable to get a message to SF command, shouldn't they be worried about where they sent their flagship and top diplomat? With no idea what the hell is going on, they should have been moving ships to the Neutral Zone. Skippy then asked Picard out to dinner, which Picard accepted. The next day they ate dinner but didn't talk of anything of meaning. During all this time ships should have been moving to the Neutral Zone. Skippy then became blatantly hostile towards the E-E. During all this time, ships should have still been moving to the Neutral Zone. The E-E rescues Picard, and the Scimitar gives chase. Now we KNOW that they've diverted the fleet to meet the E-E outside of the Neutral Zone. Frankly, I don't even think they should have cared about violating the Neutral Zone, at this point, because they were already at war with the RSE, but they did, so it doesn't much matter. We see that in all this time they should have been moving ships to the Neutral Zone, they've moved a grand total of eight starships anywhere near it. That is not good policy.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-17 09:31am

MOO: Prove there were only eight ships along the neutral zone.
Right, if and when you do that then we can continue, if you cant prove that they were the entire SF presence in the area then you can't question anything other than their choice to only send seven ships and deploy the rest elsewhere.

FaxModem1 · Post by **FaxModem1** » 2002-12-17 09:41am

Thank you Darkling, that is what I have been trying to say for a while now.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-17 11:03am

TheDarkling wrote:Alyeska: Isn't the trek ships take years to build idea already been put to rest? a bunch of Rebels with no shipyard (and no SF experience or probably ship building experience) built the Defiant in just a few months, while the Defiant is small it shows how easy it is to build fed ships.
This is why I have always takken Shelbys 40 ships within a year quote to mean that the fleet would be back on course within a year (40 additional ships to those already planned, so keeping fleet building on schedule without a hitch).

I had completely forgotten about the alternate Defiant, thanks. This would also explain how the Sovereign class was apparently built so quickly.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-17 04:52pm

TheDarkling wrote:MOO: Prove there were only eight ships along the neutral zone.
Right, if and when you do that then we can continue, if you cant prove that they were the entire SF presence in the area then you can't question anything other than their choice to only send seven ships and deploy the rest elsewhere.

When SF ordered the E-E to move, Picard tells us that THE FLEET has moved to assist them. That is not, "Part of the fleet," or "a portion of A fleet," he says, "THE fleet." We then find out that there are only eight ships, counting the E-E, that are trying to rendezvous there. Besides, where would the other ships be? They have just one chance to stop the Scimitar, and that is dependent on Shinzon going after the E-E. They should be trying to maximize their chances of destroying Shinzon if and when he engages the E-E. Moreover, they have no reason to be hiding. They have given Shinzon false information that will lead him to believe that the remainder of SF's ships are elsewhere. Finally, after talking with SF command, Picard still believes that SF has no chance of detecting the Scimitar, and to keep forces around Earth would be to waste them. That is a hell of a lot of evidence that all indicates that those were SF's only substantial forces in the region. It is based on dialogue and observation, as well as inference. There is absolutely no reference, WHATSOEVER, to any other ships along the Neutral Zone, nor is there any reason to have additional ships that were not committed to the battle.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-17 04:56pm

FaxModem1 wrote:Thank you Darkling, that is what I have been trying to say for a while now.

No you haven't. Since I pointed this out, in regards to the original question, you have made only two posts and then this one. Here they are:

So, has the Federation relaxed, or is it still a Starfleet pumping machine?

If it is, One despot could decide to conquer the AQ with the way things are going with everybody else(if he conquered the Federation and declared martial law, kinda like B5)

How do we know that? It was only A battle group, there could dozens or a hundred of those..

BTW, because this has become a discussion of Nemesis, I am moving it to the appropriate forum. I will leave a shadow topic.

FaxModem1 · Post by **FaxModem1** » 2002-12-17 05:13pm

I meant in this thread, with

How do we know that? It was only A battle group, there could dozens or a hundred of those..

That was what I thought I proved it to you, also, in Astrometrics, you can see the "fleet" be called "Battle Group Omega"

I don't think this is the only battle group out there, my GUESS is, that they sent a few battle groups to hunt for the Scimitar. And this was the one that the Enterprise was supposed to meet.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-17 05:16pm

MOO: Again leaving your border open and colonies undefended is a dumb idea - you are asking SF to put all their eggs in one basket and probably destroy their best chance at taking on Shizon (or do you think Shizon would have taken on the Ent-E plus 50 ships?)

The other ships could have been along the NZ, nearby worlds, earth, getting ready for a counter attack (I imagine SF has a plan ready for a Romulan conflict) etc etc.

Can I get a quote on THE fleet please?, saying the fleet is on its way can easily mean that fleet command is sending reinforcements, we do know however that this wasnt actually a fleet (battlegroup Omega).

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-17 05:24pm

TheDarkling wrote:MOO: Again leaving your border open and colonies undefended is a dumb idea - you are asking SF to put all their eggs in one basket and probably destroy their best chance at taking on Shizon (or do you think Shizon would have taken on the Ent-E plus 50 ships?)

He should have been. Picard expected him to bring along more ships than just the Scimitar. The fact that Skippy as an idiot does not mean that SF was banking on his being an idiot in bringing only a single ship, when more were needed.

The other ships could have been along the NZ, nearby worlds, earth, getting ready for a counter attack (I imagine SF has a plan ready for a Romulan conflict) etc etc.

Perhaps, but their plan was clearly in need of revision due to the change in government, and the objective of the scenario changed from defending the border to defending Earth. It is not a poor strategy to sacrifice a few outlying colonies and worthless tracts of territory in order to save your government, and stand a chance at a later counter-attack.

Can I get a quote on THE fleet please?, saying the fleet is on its way can easily mean that fleet command is sending reinforcements, we do know however that this wasnt actually a fleet (battlegroup Omega).

Sure.

Italics mine wrote: Picard: We've been ordered to head to Sector 3274. Star Fleet is diverting the fleet to meet us there.

Riker: Strength in numbers?

Picard: We can only hope so.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-17 05:38pm

No Picard wasnt expecting Shizon to bring reinforcements he just

thought the Romulans that turned up were on Shizon's side.

Perhaps, but their plan was clearly in need of revision due to the change in government, and the objective of the scenario changed from defending the border to defending Earth. It is not a poor strategy to sacrifice a few outlying colonies and worthless tracts of territory in order to save your government, and stand a chance at a later counter-attack.

You are straying now - are you changing your argument from SF not policing the border to SF not being prepared for an uber ship of doom attack? everything you just said up there are comments on the later and leaves the former unrebutted.

On the fleet part it seems it easily references reinforcement from "the fleet", it could also mean "the fleet" as you believe it to mean but this conflicts with the fact that the batte group isn't called a fleet, isnt big enough for a fleet and if anything should have been called a taskforce (since in you theory they were covering the zone thus being a task force or sector group not a "fleet").

The entire fleet quote is a bit flimsy and could go either way except it fits better with my interpretation

.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-17 05:56pm

TheDarkling wrote:No Picard wasnt expecting Shizon to bring reinforcements he just thought the Romulans that turned up were on Shizon's side.

He didn't seem in the least bit surprised by it. Neither did his crew. If he had not expected them, he should have been surprised.

Perhaps, but their plan was clearly in need of revision due to the change in government, and the objective of the scenario changed from defending the border to defending Earth. It is not a poor strategy to sacrifice a few outlying colonies and worthless tracts of territory in order to save your government, and stand a chance at a later counter-attack.
You are straying now - are you changing your argument from SF not policing the border to SF not being prepared for an uber ship of doom attack?

They don't police their borders. We KNOW that from "Nemesis." They hadn't explored a planet that was "safely on" their side of the Neutral Zone. They were afraid of even moving near it, even though it is definitely part of their territory. The question is only how many ships they have prepared for an attack. The evidence clearly demonstrates that they do not have a significant number of ships between Earth and Romulus.

everything you just said up there are comments on the later and leaves the former unrebutted.

Not really. They still should have been able to bring more ships up, especially since they had at least two days to do it, and several months' warning that a coup was going on in the RSE (at least, if they had significant intelligence resources in the RSE they should have known).

On the fleet part it seems it easily references reinforcement from "the fleet",

Not really. Picard makes no mention of any other ships. Picard tells them that the only chance they have is if Skippy goes after him. Picard tells them that all other concerns are secondary to the destruction of the Scimitar (actually, he says they come secondary to preventing Skippy from using his weapon), and he says that THE fleet is moving. He says nothing about reinforcements. He says nothing about another group of ships. He says nothing to the effect of "A group of SF ships is moving to protect us," which would leave it open for interpretation whether or not there are any other ships around. He says THE FLEET. He doesn't even call it an "element of a fleet," which is what your interpretation of the dialogue relies on. He says, "THE FLEET," and not a part of the fleet. Your interpretation is unsubstantiated by the dialogue.

it could also mean "the fleet" as you believe it to mean but this conflicts with the fact that the batte group isn't called a fleet, isnt big enough for a fleet and if anything should have been called a taskforce

Data, IIRC, also calls it "The fleet," during his moralizing talk with Picard in astrometrics, but it is called a battlegroup on the wall.

(since in you theory they were covering the zone thus being a task force or sector group not a "fleet").

There is no real definition of a battle group, and certainly not one that means that if they were covering an area, they would be considered a fleet or a task force.

The entire fleet quote is a bit flimsy and could go either way except it fits better with my interpretation .

Bullshit. You are twisting the dialogue to fit your narrow view of the UFP. It is clear that those were the only ships in the area. There is NO reference to other ships. There is NO reference to what else the other ships are doing. There is NO reason why SF should not have deployed the vast majority of its forces to support the E-E, which is (conveniently enough) also considered their flagship. If Picard had said, "A fleet," you would be right. He said, "THE fleet." That clearly indicates that there was only one, which is confirmed circumstantially by everything else that went on during the movie, which makes it abundantly clear that the only hope for SF is if Shinzon fucks up and goes after the E-E, which he does.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-17 06:28pm

MOO: He wasnt surprised that doesnt mean he thought it likely.

Exploring all the planets on their side of the NZ doesnt translate to not patroling the Zone ( we know they do patrol it since the Enterprise pulls that duty during TNG and during FC, we also know that during the Dominion war ships patroling he NZ keep getting destroyed).

The evidence demonstrates they didnt send a load of ships against Shizon nothing more, tell me how long is the NZ, whats the distance from earth to the NZ? how many importnat colonies in the area? how many ships did SF have deployed at earth? did SF send all its ships to take on Shizon?

You have a number and a heap of assumntion with no reasoning behind it that can't (and has been) be refutted.

The coup wasn't seen coming by the Senate so I doubt the Feds knew, the only reference was some problems on a Remus ( a mining world) that doesnt translate to a fullscale coup.

Shizon is in charge of the RSE, hes got a superweapon, he declared hes going to take ut the Feds yet you think he wont use his fleet, I thinkShizon isn't that foolish, just because Picard doesnt state the blindingly obvious (that a conventional attack will probably take place if fullscale war occurs) doesn't mean it wont occur.

My interpretation is supported since it ISN'T a fleet, your theory ignores this, it ignores the size of this fleet (compared to almost (if not) every fleet we have seen this doesnt qualify).

It wasn't a fleet to imply that it actually was is going off the deep end, you literal interpretation of the word FLEET means its either a fleet (which it isnt) of the entire sum amount of SF's ships (lunacy).

Why is it clear those are the only ships in te area, you still havent offered any proof of this.

You claim SF would sacrifice the security of entire worlds to protect its flagship, sorry scratch that OVER protect its flagship.

If Shinzon going after the Ent-E is the only hope for the UFP you dont want to scare him off.

Again you have no proof those are the only ships between the Romulus and Earth and you are then using your assumption to show the Feds at a low state of readiness.

It seems however you are clinging to this interpretation so I dont see any point in continuing this discussion.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-17 06:49pm

TheDarkling wrote:MOO: He wasnt surprised that doesnt mean he thought it likely.

Oh, you're right. They should count on the bad-guy being stupid in ST, because they usually have been in the past.

Exploring all the planets on their side of the NZ doesnt translate to not patroling the Zone ( we know they do patrol it since the Enterprise pulls that duty during TNG and during FC, we also know that during the Dominion war ships patroling he NZ keep getting destroyed).

They detected those positronic emissions from some distance away. They were also afraid to go into the Neutral Zone. They were afraid even to go NEAR the thing, even though they would still be well on their side of the border. That does translate into not patrolling it. Further, if they had been patrolling it they should have detected the Remans or Romulans moving through the Neutral Zone, earlier, when they deposited B-4 onto the planet.

The evidence demonstrates they didnt send a load of ships against Shizon nothing more, tell me how long is the NZ, whats the distance from earth to the NZ? how many importnat colonies in the area? how many ships did SF have deployed at earth? did SF send all its ships to take on Shizon?

It indicates that they sent a good majority of their available forces to fight Shinzon. There would have been no reason, short of stupidity, for them not to do so. We hear that they sent THE fleet to fight Shinzon, and as long as the Neutral Zone is within two days of Earth, all of SF's ships should have been there.

You have a number and a heap of assumntion with no reasoning behind it that can't (and has been) be refutted.

Assumption based on strong circumstantial evidence, and one line of dialogue. You have nothing but appeals to ignorance to back up your cause, and have done nothing to refute ANY of the circumstantial evidence that supports my point of view, or even explained why it is not relevent to this discussion.

The coup wasn't seen coming by the Senate so I doubt the Feds knew, the only reference was some problems on a Remus ( a mining world) that doesnt translate to a fullscale coup.

Not true, the Senators were discussing opening up negotiations BECAUSE there were obvious problems on Remus. That is either a massive rebellion that the military is incapable of suppressing, or a coup. It had been going on for months. There is no excuse for not recognizing that, if the UFP had ANY intelligence assets in the RSE.

Shizon is in charge of the RSE, hes got a superweapon, he declared hes going to take ut the Feds yet you think he wont use his fleet, I thinkShizon isn't that foolish, just because Picard doesnt state the blindingly obvious (that a conventional attack will probably take place if fullscale war occurs) doesn't mean it wont occur.

I think he will use his fleet for a pre-emptive strike, especially since his attack on the E-E is going to reveal his intentions to the UFP before he is able to launch his attack on Earth. He should have brought his fleet along to help him.

My interpretation is supported since it ISN'T a fleet, your theory ignores this, it ignores the size of this fleet (compared to almost (if not) every fleet we have seen this doesnt qualify).

Wrong. You assume that Picard was mistaken. You assume that the term "battle group" precludes the possibility that it could be a fleet, despite the fact that in real life the two terms are sometimes used interchangeably and the words "battle group" have no set definition. You assume that the small fleet size is not the result of decommissionings, despite the lack of openly hostile enemies until the re-emergence of Shinzon and the RSE, despite the canonical decommissionings that have occurred after EVERY UFP war in the past. My theory says that the UFP has relaxed too much since the Dominion War and "End Game." Your theory presents nothing, other than a vague accusation that Picard was twice mistaken in classifying the group of ships we saw as a fleet.

It wasn't a fleet to imply that it actually was is going off the deep end, you literal interpretation of the word FLEET means its either a fleet (which it isnt) of the entire sum amount of SF's ships (lunacy).

It was THE fleet. It was not A fleet, or a portion of several fleets. It was THE fleet, according to Picard. Why don't you respond to this, explaining why he would have used the term "THE" instead of "A" or "part of the," instead of dancing around it and relying on appeal to ignorance fallacies.

Why is it clear those are the only ships in te area, you still havent offered any proof of this.

Why? Because it is clear that SF is moving the ships it has to Sector 3274. If it had additional ships in the area, they would also have been moving there. Moreover, once again, their only chance to stop Shinzon was at Sector 3274, and NO ONE even hints that there were additional ships there. You are assuming that they exist, despite having absolutely no evidence that they do. That is a burden of proof fallacy.

You claim SF would sacrifice the security of entire worlds to protect its flagship, sorry scratch that OVER protect its flagship.

Not at all. They are already sacrificing the security of Earth (and numerous other planets) if they do NOT send those ships to protect the E-E. They need to maximize their chances of defeating Shinzon there. It is their only chance. As Picard puts it, "All other concerns are secondary." At least if they send more ships to Sector 3274, they know that if Shinzon goes there he will have a greater chance of losing. As it was, they had no such guarantees.

If Shinzon going after the Ent-E is the only hope for the UFP you dont want to scare him off.

No, but he won't be scared off. He thinks he knows where all of SF's ships are. He thinks they are elsewhere. If he is going to attack the E-E, it would be best to have as many ships there waiting for him as possible. Moreover, had it not been for Shinzon's stupidity, he would have easily defeated the E-E, because he would have had more vessels to back him up.

Again you have no proof those are the only ships between the Romulus and Earth and you are then using your assumption to show the Feds at a low state of readiness.

Wrong. I am subscribing properly to the burden of proof. YOU are claiming it is my responsibility to show that there are NOT ships there. In fact, if you believe that there were ships there, you must show evidence of their existence. There would be no reason for them to be there, they are never referred to in any way, shape, or form, and they would be worthless anywhere but with the fleet gathered in Sector 3274.

It seems however you are clinging to this interpretation so I dont see any point in continuing this discussion.

Fine, run away. You haven't even bothered to present any evidence whatsoever, other than a belief that Picard is wrong without any evidence, whatsoever, that he was.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-17 07:36pm

MOO: We dont know how B4 was planted, the Super cloak could have been used, a third party (Klingons etc, traders we know they have used for this sort of thing before).
You didnt address my evidence, we know border controls go on - we have seen them and we have heard about them Riker saying its close to the neutral zone because hes eager to appear nude in public doesnt constitute enough evidence to overturn this evidence.

What amount of forces were available? If you dont know this how can you make claims about the portion of those ships sent to take on Shinzon.

Againa and again and again and again I have shown valid reasons for Sf to not send all their ships, you havent addressed these except to say your way is better - thats your opinion, one I do not share and one SF maynot share.

You have one line of dialogue, I have an actual SF designation (we see this designation) every previous instance of SF "fleets" and another interpretation of that line of dialogue.

Not true, the Senators were discussing opening up negotiations BECAUSE there were obvious problems on Remus. That is either a massive rebellion that the military is incapable of suppressing, or a coup. It had been going on for months. There is no excuse for not recognizing that, if the UFP had ANY intelligence assets in the RSE.

Or maybe it was just a bad mining due to cave ins or some such, the Remans or guards skimming off the top and even if there was active resistance on the planet that doesnt translate to coup.

If the fleet had moved to intercept Shinzon he could have done an end run around them hit earth while his fleet took control of key sectors because SF left itself wide open by consolidating its forces in an area where they weren't needed.

The term fleet culd simply be a collection of ships, the fleet could refer to the nearest fleet.

Give me ANY evidence that those were the only ships in the area, any PROOF not guesses based upon what you think would be a good idea in that situation but actual proof.

Picard could have simply meant fleet as in collection of ships, this proves nothing.
You have a theory based upon no evidence (the Romulans were still considered a threat Ref Sloane) the Borg still exist, the Dominion are still a power that arent friendly - a rapid deommissioning (within a year or so) makes very little sense since decommissioning has only been seen when the Feds had no treats to them, the Romulans still existed as a potential threat (as did the Borg and to a lesser extent the Dominion).

THE FLEET wasn't fleet sized, it wasn't designated a fleet and taken absolutley literally would mean the entire Federtion compliment of ships

.

Geordi once said to a Romulan "the fleets in, the skies full of federation ships" he wasnt referencing the 5th fleet, the local fleet, the sector fleet or the entire federation fleet he was simply refering to "the fleet" as in starfleet ships.

Im not saying there are other ships within an hour of the Ent-E im saying other groups could be protectnig the neutral zone, other colonies or earth etc.

You cant prove every single SF ship rushed to one point when the heard about the peace deal (dumb move) or that they all rushed to intercept Shinzon leaving other areas open when it wasn't necessary.

If you send a ton of ships there Shinzon wont commit suicide with a frontal assault so sending loads of ships there has disadvantages but no advantages.

Hello....he has a cloak he follows the Ent-E sees 30 ships and thinks "I cant win this lets go frag earth, oh and tell the rest of the fleet to start attacking the undefended colonies since these morons are sitting here waiting for me", may the battle unwinable and hes just going to go after earth out of revenge.

No you are claiming there are no other ships between earth and Romulas and using this claim as proof are SF decommissioning therefore you must prove this at least has some grounding.

They never refered to letting their allies the Klingons know or getting earths defenses ready - did these since to exist aswell?
Just because they didnt stop for 20 minutes in the middle of the movie to discuss the exact position of all SF forces along the NZ and this side of earth.

Im not saying Picard is wrong Im saying you interpretation of his words is wrnog, you seem to be having a problem seperating your opinion from fact.

I also wasnt running away just admitting that your claims dont constitute canon fact and therefore dont prove a thing however you believe your opinion is correct and thus are basing a theory off of it, we cant come to an agreement so this is pointless however it seems you dont agree (for some reason).

I will reply tomorrow.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-17 07:57pm

Darkling, you can invent whatever excuses for Starfleet's pitiful fleet deployment that you like, but if you think they don't look like flimsy excuses, you're deluding yourself.

As for the DS9 fleets, several points:

1) A lot of them were old ships rushed into service. They might not have kept them operational.

2) Over a period of years, they can pull lots of ships in from around their territory. However, their pitiful propulsion speed means that in order to have good coverage of their territory, they must spread them out again after the war, to the point that it would take months or years to re-assemble them into one place. A fleet like that is ultimately trivial unless you give your enemy a year to prepare for you.

3) We never see hundreds of capships onscreen. Too many Trekkies are assuming that they ignore certain classes of ships when they count ships, hence their outrage when we say that ship-counts include fighters; sorry, but EXCLUDING certain types of ships from the word "ships" is hardly a default condition; the onus is on the Trekkies to show that they are doing this.

Sorry, but there's only so much spin-doctoring you can do on a pitiful fleet deployment.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-17 08:05pm

TheDarkling wrote:MOO: We dont know how B4 was planted, the Super cloak could have been used, a third party (Klingons etc, traders we know they have used for this sort of thing before).

Concession accepted. The UFP was not aware of what was going on, indicating that their patrols were too few and far between.

You didnt address my evidence, we know border controls go on - we have seen them and we have heard about them Riker saying its close to the neutral zone because hes eager to appear nude in public doesnt constitute enough evidence to overturn this evidence.

You use evidence from a bygone era to refute something that is only meant to apply after "End Game" and "ST:FC?" Your evidence is just a red herring. Why should I respond to that.

What amount of forces were available? If you dont know this how can you make claims about the portion of those ships sent to take on Shinzon.

I'm not MAKING claims about what portion of ships were sent to fight Shinzon. I'm talking about what portion of ships they SHOULD have sent (all of them), and concluding that the number of ships they had was small. I have every right to speculate on what they SHOULD have done. You, on the other hand, have absolutely no idea what other ships were doing, if they even existed. As I pointed out previously, this is just an appeal to ignorance fallacy.

Againa and again and again and again I have shown valid reasons for Sf to not send all their ships, you havent addressed these except to say your way is better - thats your opinion, one I do not share and one SF maynot share.

No you haven't. All you do is appeal to ignorance, use strawman tactics to talk about different eras, use red-herrings to talk about other areas, and ignore canonical evidence about what is going on in the movie. You have no evidence that SF did not send all of its ships. I DO have evidence that they did send every ship available. Even if they did not do that they were stupid to have not done so.

You have one line of dialogue, I have an actual SF designation (we see this designation) every previous instance of SF "fleets" and another interpretation of that line of dialogue.

In real life, the terms "battle group" and "fleet" can be used interchangeably. You completely ignored that, and somehow came to the truly bizarre position that the term "battle group" precludes the notion that that was their entire fleet. If, in fact, a battle group is shown to be smaller than a fleet in ST, it would only indicate a SMALLER force for SF, because that battle group was still the only thing they sent to fight Shinzon's Scimitar.

Not true, the Senators were discussing opening up negotiations BECAUSE there were obvious problems on Remus. That is either a massive rebellion that the military is incapable of suppressing, or a coup. It had been going on for months. There is no excuse for not recognizing that, if the UFP had ANY intelligence assets in the RSE.
Or maybe it was just a bad mining due to cave ins or some such, the Remans or guards skimming off the top and even if there was active resistance on the planet that doesnt translate to coup.

LMAO! I guess that the Remans were subjected to bad mining for months before they decided to rebel, all the while the guards did not notice something was up, even though they would be watching more closely for something like that. Moreover, they were trying to NEGOTIATE with someone (ie. the Rebels). Further more, you again disregard canonical dialogue. In this case, "if we hesitate we’ll lose this important source of dilithium." How the hell can a cave in result in a critical negotiation that will cause a loss of a valuable source of dilithium?

If the fleet had moved to intercept Shinzon he could have done an end run around them hit earth while his fleet took control of key sectors because SF left itself wide open by consolidating its forces in an area where they weren't needed.

Except that he needs Picard. You're ignoring the point of that whole crappy sub-plot of the movie. Demonstrate that more ships existed.

The term fleet culd simply be a collection of ships, the fleet could refer to the nearest fleet.

Picard said that THE fleet was being sent to rendezvous with them. That precludes the reference being to the nearest fleet. A fleet is a term for a large collection of ships, but you have yet to demonstrate the existence of additional ships in the area. Demonstrate that more ships existed.

Give me ANY evidence that those were the only ships in the area, any PROOF not guesses based upon what you think would be a good idea in that situation but actual proof.

Burden of proof fallacy. YOU must prove that there were additional ships in the area. You haven't even presented evidence that this is the case. There IS no evidence that this is the case.

Picard could have simply meant fleet as in collection of ships, this proves nothing.

You've said this before. Demonstrate that there were additional ships in the area.

You have a theory based upon no evidence (the Romulans were still considered a threat Ref Sloane) the Borg still exist, the Dominion are still a power that arent friendly - a rapid deommissioning (within a year or so) makes very little sense since decommissioning has only been seen when the Feds had no treats to them, the Romulans still existed as a potential threat (as did the Borg and to a lesser extent the Dominion).

Bullshit. My theory is based on dialogue and extrapolation on what ordinarily happens in REAL LIFE when things like this occur. Your theory is based on made up evidence of ships that don't exist, and on numerous logical fallacies.

THE FLEET wasn't fleet sized, it wasn't designated a fleet and taken absolutley literally would mean the entire Federtion compliment of ships .

Not really, SF has been shown to have numerous fleets in the past, however there is no reason not to have all of the ships available fighting Skippy, in this case, and you must demonstrate that those ships were all in the area.

Geordi once said to a Romulan "the fleets in, the skies full of federation ships" he wasnt referencing the 5th fleet, the local fleet, the sector fleet or the entire federation fleet he was simply refering to "the fleet" as in starfleet ships.

So what? This is a different era. Demonstrate that there were additional ships in the area that were not committed to fighting Skippy with the E-E.

Im not saying there are other ships within an hour of the Ent-E im saying other groups could be protectnig the neutral zone, other colonies or earth etc.

Demonstrate that these ships exist.

You cant prove every single SF ship rushed to one point when the heard about the peace deal (dumb move) or that they all rushed to intercept Shinzon leaving other areas open when it wasn't necessary.

Obviously not. I don't have to. YOU need to prove that there were additional ships in the area, in order to discount my theory. You have not done so. You have not even TRIED to do so. You have no evidence that these other ships exist.

If you send a ton of ships there Shinzon wont commit suicide with a frontal assault so sending loads of ships there has disadvantages but no advantages.

Again, demonstrate that additional ships were available, but were not sent for this reason. Further, Skippy should have brought along additional ships, and he was relying on faulty information. The UFP should have moved more ships to the area, if they had the capability of doing so.

Hello....he has a cloak he follows the Ent-E sees 30 ships and thinks "I cant win this lets go frag earth, oh and tell the rest of the fleet to start attacking the undefended colonies since these morons are sitting here waiting for me", may the battle unwinable and hes just going to go after earth out of revenge.

Okay, demonstrate that more ships were in the area and were not sent so as not to scare off Skippy. Moreover, demonstrate that he would have attacked other areas, given his obviously faulty information on UFP fleet movements. You have presented another unsubstantiated claim.

No you are claiming there are no other ships between earth and Romulas and using this claim as proof are SF decommissioning therefore you must prove this at least has some grounding.

Not really. I'm saying that they should have been moving to Sector 3274. You must demonstrate that there were additional ships between Earth and the Neutral Zone, if that is the part of my theory you disagree with. All you've done is attacked PARTS of my evidence, without any success.

They never refered to letting their allies the Klingons know or getting earths defenses ready - did these since to exist aswell?

Perhaps, or else they were unable to reach Earth in time. More importantly, Picard clearly stated AFTER talking with SF command that the only hope for Earth was if Skippy came after the E-E. They clearly knew that the E-E was their only hope.

Just because they didnt stop for 20 minutes in the middle of the movie to discuss the exact position of all SF forces along the NZ and this side of earth.

What of it? The map showed no additional SF ships in the region. No reference was made to additional ships in the region. Picard's quote indicates that only one group of ships (fleet) is in the area, by making it out to be a singular and unique entity within the region.

Im not saying Picard is wrong Im saying you interpretation of his words is wrnog, you seem to be having a problem seperating your opinion from fact.

Why would Picard use the word "the" to signify a fleet, if it was one of a group or a number of fleets? Again, the map showed no additional ships. He referred to no additional ships. No mention was made of the defenses of Earth, even though in "BoBW" they made a big deal about how Earth was preparing to defend itself, and talked about it briefly again in ST:FC.

I also wasnt running away just admitting that your claims dont constitute canon fact and therefore dont prove a thing however you believe your opinion is correct and thus are basing a theory off of it, we cant come to an agreement so this is pointless however it seems you dont agree (for some reason).

Perhaps because you haven't provided evidence of your mysterious massive groups of other ships' existence? You don't have any evidence. Your alternative theory was based on nothing. You've demonstrated that you're willing to ignore the dialogue even though we have no evidence whatsoever that it is incorrect. You've also used numerous fallacies to attack my theory, including but not limited to red-herrings and burden of proof fallacies. I ask you again, do you have ANY evidence that there are other ships in the region, or are you merely attacking the evidence I have presented and thus creating an appeal to ignorance fallacy defense?

I will reply tomorrow.

See you then.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-17 08:11pm

I just want to point out that the UFP response was planned by Janeway.

That should cover all the fuckups you want to point out right there.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-17 08:12pm

Ender wrote:I just want to point out that the UFP response was planned by Janeway.

That should cover all the fuckups you want to point out right there.

Why does Janeway's involvement in the sector mean that she's in charge of everything? It would pretty well cover up a complete strategic or tactical blunder IF Janeway were in charge of everything, though.

T-1000 · Post by **T-1000** » 2002-12-18 01:43am

Master of Ossus wrote:
FaxModem1 wrote:nevermind, the Klingon Empire's losses don't have to do with the Feds learning curve.

But, didn't the war make them realize that they always need to be on their toes.

EX. "Endgame", 18 ships in 2 minutes, with 9 on the way in the Sol system.
In "Nemesis" (spoiler ahead)

they managed just seven ships in two days. This demonstrates that with the removal of the Borg threat, SF reverted to its old and pacifistic ways. If they learned anything, they learned it temporarily and rapidly forgot it.

Yes, but that wasn't close to Earth. That was along the outer area, more along the Neutral zone. We don't know if more ships were on their way and if those ships were the only ones the Enterprise were expected to rendezvous with in time.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-18 06:25am

See MOO theres yuo problem you say they should have sent all their ships to taker on Shinzon, I have exlpained why this is a bad idea but you disagree.

You opinion is SF should and did send its entire fleet mine isnt they shouldnt and probably didnt.

Imagine if I were to say the fleet at Endor was all the ships the empire could muster in the months they had been planning the Endor "trap", is just plain stupid, they only needed the ships they sent and the rest of their ships were better used elsewhere.

The UFP wasnt aware what was going on thus their patrol weren't enough? what are you arguing here, if they didnt know what was going on then whatever ships that were deployed (an unknown number) to deal with the situation were standard, I simply dont see your point here, I wasnt saying SF had increased its deployment in the area with months of forewarning so why is this a concession?

Whatever fleet assets deployed to the region were sent there during the time frame involved imn the movie - this proves nothing so I can't possibly understand whatt concession you are accepting but it isn't mine.

Oh I see the Romulan threat has stayed the same (if not increased) since TNG yet you think its been reduced and that SF has reduced border patrol and fleet deployment accordingly, prove it.

Exactly my pint mOO you are assuming that SF was stupid enough to send all its fleet against Shinzon because thats what you would have done, I dont think it was the right call and you haven't proved SF thought it was either therefore the size of the battlegroup has no bearing upon anything except the size of the battlegroup.

You, on the other hand, have absolutely no idea what other ships were doing, if they even existed. As I pointed out previously, this is just an appeal to ignorance fallacy.

Now this is an outright lie, I have said many times what other ships would be doing, patroling the Zone, potecting colonies, protecting earth, preparing a counter strike, hell they could have moved fleet assets to cover the Klingon-Romulan border for all I know.

Again your opinion on what they did doesnt count as canon fact.

Different eras (within the last 15 years, endgame was a year ago - not exaclty a different era, FC was a couple of years before that and so on), you are starting to debate my argument because you know realise that your entire argument is based upon your opinion based upon a tiny flimsy quote that can (and has been) handily dealt with.

Again you DON'T have any evidence they sent every ship you have what you would have done projected onto SF, that doesn't count.

Yet again you cling to this argument that since thats all they sent to take no Shinzon thats all they have got, yuo havent proved it other than to say "thts what I would have done", I hav given many reasons to think this was a bad idea and enough reasons to point that your opinion isn't the only valid one.

Ermm Dilithium moons can (and have) blown up in the past, you think SF who have opperatives at the highest levels of he RSE and can take images of Romulus so precise you can make out a guys fac wouldn't notice something like this? Shinzon mayh have been holding the mine hostage but that still doesn't = coup, we saw a Klingon world (kreos 6 I think) undergoing a rebellion - did the high council start panicking about being overhtrown? no.

The senate didn't see the Romulan military switching sides so I dont think SF could have been honestly expected to.

Demonstrate SF has all the battle planning of a Lemon and will hand the RSE everything upto and including Earth just to chance Shinzon, while he did need Picard by the time we caught up with him it was already getting to the stage where it was too late, if 50 ships had been covering the Ent-E it would be suicide so in a fit of anger (as he does have in the movie) he would go after earth.

The fleet taken literally could mean every single SF ship in action - why not go the whole hog and spout this lunarcy instead?

Again Geordi said "The Fleets in" he was refering to no specific fleet smiply refering to THE fleet as ships sent by SF command, a number of ships etc etc, you one piece of flimsy dialogue and your OPINION do not amount t canon fact and to then go on and use an isolated action (unproven I might add) to say that SF has gone back to TNG level (or even lower you would have us believe) state is A) Foolish due to you not proving you actual theory B) stupid because its one isolated incident in a vacumm and C)just plain dumb because even if they HAD weakened their border control (which you havent proven) it cuold simply be because they were working towards peace with Romulas etc.

There is no evidence to show that other ships where in the area except prior knowledge of SF deployment, there is no evidence against other ships being in the area ships but your opion on what should have been done.

In normal life? SF had been building up because of the Borg, Romulans and Klingon and then later the Dominion, the Borg are still a threat, the Romulans are still a threat, the Klingnos aren't and the Dominion is a reduced threat.
There has been no letting up yet you say there has been.

You ask me to prove additional ships again, I have given evidence that SF does what im describing you show me evidence that proves these previous actions and mindsets are no longer in effect.

You are the one trying to prove a change in mindset (based upon these incident alone which in turn is based upon you opinon), so you prove this change in mindset, yous till havent proven SF had all available ships there since you havent you cant prove SF had no ships along the border, its possible for some very far out reason they didnt have any other ships available however since Im not trying to build an entir etheory regarding the Federation on information I dont have,im ok you however are not.

Ther eare reason to not have you entire flee go after one ship, hand the Federation to the Romulans, scare Shinzon off anf thus void the reason for your mission (get shinzon to save th federation) and still fail tat mission (scare Shinzon off).

I havent proven these ships exist (although I have given every reason to think so) however you havent proven SF sent everything it had, you are building a theory on your unproven guesswork, I'm not theres the diff you see.

Oh I see he was given faulty info n SF ship positions, now dont you think he might have twigged if Sf had said they had a huge amount os ships on the border, he does have his own intel network you know, its far more likely SF simply left worlds open on the info they gave him but actually covered those worlds in order to lay a trap for his forces, this however has no bearing what so ever on his forces attacking elsewhere along the border nd I think you know it.

No i have said countless times that I disagree with the need to move every SF ship within range to meet up with the battlegroup, I see no need for it and therefore I see the size of the battlegroup having any limiting effect on SF stance.

Yehan and Admiral Ross stated that the Feds only hope was to take out the White Storage during the war, he didnt however pull every single asset he had to mount a frontal assault and he sure as hell didnt hand them Earth or Vulcan to try and accomplish that mission, Picard was of the opinion it was SF only hope however that doesn't mean SF agreed and it didn't mean SF would pull ships from protecting earth (and the border and colonies etc) to try and race to the meeting place when there was no need.
Im getting tired of explainnig the gaping holes in yuor plan but you just dont get it and whats worse you then build an entire theoru outlinging the Feds state of mind upon it.

The region was a small sections of the border, we dont see the rest of the border, we dont see the sector behind those, we dont see earth and so on.

No mention was made of earths defense just like none where made about other ships therefore both dont exist - gottya.

I have no alternative theory accept that since we dont see the Feds deployment its logical to assume they are deployed in a manner to how they have been before, you are saying its a new era but to prove that you are using thje fact that its a new era obviously you see the problem here, you are using your conclusion as one of the main factors in reaching that conclusion (because without it you don't have any evidence SF has changed its fleet deployments for what they once where).

You claim no ships between the NZ and earth without evidence, you claim no ships along the NZ again without evidence (did yu think that the NZ may be long enough that they couldnt pull forces from across it to converge in time even if they were astupid enough to do so same for earth, Picard has been on NZ before and been out of real time comms range so it must be a long border etc) and then you use these claims to justify a conclusion based upon one unproven and isolated incident.

Again my opinon is that SF wouldnt converge all its forces yours is that they would - everything else is window dressing and since we aren't going to change our minds this is pointless however you will probably once again accuse me of being a coward when in fact im being sensible and reasonable.

Darth Wong: Obviously im not as awe inspiringly intelligent as you because they dont seem flimsy to me they are based upon what we have seen before (which we dont have any reason to believe things have changed unless we build out conclusion and work backwards using that conclusion to rewrite facts we are in the dark about) and if they are flmsy then what do you think of building an entire theory upon one incident when we don't have all the facts and previous examples point towards other delpoyments.

1)Agreed however the endgame fleet is IIRC mad eup of newer ships except one.

2)They were usnig rather large fleet months into the war, true hey probably saw thw riting on the wall but it didnt take them years to muster those fleets (and it didnt take them years to rustle up a fleet for earths protection yet MOO would have us bel;ieve that this time they couldnt even mount a defence unlike BOBW,FC,DS9,Endgame)

3)I have heard this about fighters before but never yet have I seen evidence except because.... because... because.... they just are right, I'm understandably (at least to myself) unconvinced.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-18 10:12am

Darth Wong wrote:Darkling, you can invent whatever excuses for Starfleet's pitiful fleet deployment that you like, but if you think they don't look like flimsy excuses, you're deluding yourself.

That is a might strong and it flat out disregards anything Darkling has said without really examing his ideas. He has had several good ideas as to why the Federation didn't have seemingly lots of ships. The primary reason being that we are only seeing the sector nearest where the E-E was, not the whole thing. You don't call a fleet a Battle Group. A Battle Group is typically the smallest force of ships one creates. Then you have Task Forces, then Fleets.

As for the DS9 fleets, several points:

1) A lot of them were old ships rushed into service. They might not have kept them operational.

We already know they decomissioned most of the older ships. Just look at the ratio of ship classes in Voyager End Game

2) Over a period of years, they can pull lots of ships in from around their territory. However, their pitiful propulsion speed means that in order to have good coverage of their territory, they must spread them out again after the war, to the point that it would take months or years to re-assemble them into one place. A fleet like that is ultimately trivial unless you give your enemy a year to prepare for you.

And this is not a problem because the Federation could watch any such movements by an enemy. Nemesis is not a problem because the Romulans are ALSO constrained by such problems. The Scimitar could not have penetrated far and any ships near Earth would utterly destroy it.

3) We never see hundreds of capships onscreen. Too many Trekkies are assuming that they ignore certain classes of ships when they count ships, hence their outrage when we say that ship-counts include fighters; sorry, but EXCLUDING certain types of ships from the word "ships" is hardly a default condition; the onus is on the Trekkies to show that they are doing this.

There is a very good reason why Tac-Fighters are not counted. They are not independent capital ships. Its the same reason why shuttle craft are not counted either. They are auxillery mission craft assigned to certain capital ships (most likely Akiras and Galaxys)

Sorry, but there's only so much spin-doctoring you can do on a pitiful fleet deployment.

There is only so much selective reasoning before it becomes obivous you are attempting to force people into believing its a pitiful deployment.

BenRG · Post by **BenRG** » 2002-12-18 05:48pm

This might be old news, but the Romulan Neutral Zone isn't an "outer area" as T-1000 put it. The triple border between Romulan, Federation and Klingon space is fairly close to Earth. Remember, the Romulans went all the way to Romulus from Vulcan either in pre-warp or extremely early-warp days for their culture (so much so that all contact was lost until the Romulan War). The humans also encountered the Romulans fairly soon after their first major steps in deep space exploration.

These 'facts' (they are actually commonly-held assumptions which has not ever been contradicted on screen) indicate that the Neutral Zone is probably fairly close to the Federation core worlds (relatively speaking). Certainly it is closer to Earth than the Cardassian or Ferengi borders.

So, one wonders where the Home Fleet was during all of this. You would expect the Federation to maintain some measure of a security force within the core worlds, even if it was a time of peace.

However, I have to agree with Darkling. If I understand the events in the movie correctly (I haven't seen it, BTW

), the Federation had only a little notice of the coup d'eat on Romulus. The forces assigned to patrol the RNZ (probably mostly destroyer- and cruiser-class with the occasional big-hitter like the Enterprise-E rotated through every now and then) would have been scattered across the entire border area. Concentration of those forces would take time, especially at the low speeds available from warp drive. Even if they had begun immediately, it is unlikely that too many ships would have arrived to support the Enterprise before it was too late.

My vague comments aside, I have had another thought. It is about 2 years post-Dominion Wars. Has there been a substantial Starfleet demobilisiation since the end of the war? It might also explain the absence of lots of ships from the task force.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-18 06:08pm

BenRG wrote:My vague comments aside, I have had another thought. It is about 2 years post-Dominion Wars. Has there been a substantial Starfleet demobilisiation since the end of the war? It might also explain the absence of lots of ships from the task force.

As of Voyager End Game the number of Excelsior and Miranda class ships dropped SHARPLY and the frankenstein ships seem to have disapeared all together.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-19 06:28pm

TheDarkling wrote:See MOO theres yuo problem you say they should have sent all their ships to taker on Shinzon, I have exlpained why this is a bad idea but you disagree.

Because it is the proper course of action. What the hell do you think that the rest of the fleet should have been doing? Their ONLY chance to stop Skippy was to have him fight the E-E, and lose to it and the ships protecting it.

You opinion is SF should and did send its entire fleet mine isnt they shouldnt and probably didnt.

Demonstrate that your theory is correct. Where were the other ships? Why were they NEVER mentioned? What were they doing? What should they have been doing? All you're saying is that they should not have sent all their ships there, but you have not demonstrated a single reason why they should not have, or what those ships would be doing elsewhere.

Imagine if I were to say the fleet at Endor was all the ships the empire could muster in the months they had been planning the Endor "trap", is just plain stupid, they only needed the ships they sent and the rest of their ships were better used elsewhere.

False analogy. We know that there were far more ships at the Battle of Endor. Moreover, the Empire knew about the Rebel fleet strength, ahead of time, and was capable of making an intelligent assessment. SF had no clue what forces Skippy had, and had no idea who he was or what he wanted.

The UFP wasnt aware what was going on thus their patrol weren't enough? what are you arguing here, if they didnt know what was going on then whatever ships that were deployed (an unknown number) to deal with the situation were standard, I simply dont see your point here, I wasnt saying SF had increased its deployment in the area with months of forewarning so why is this a concession?

You said that the Neutral Zone is well patrolled, and that the fact the one planet was unexplored did nothing to disprove that notion (which was UTTERLY wrong). I demonstrated that the Romulans had entered UFP territory without the UFP knowing about it, demonstrating clearly that the NZ was not patrolled heavily enough to halt Romulan incursions. You further claim that Skippy had the Scimitar BEFORE his coup (with no proof, whatsoever, of course) and that this explains how B-4 was placed on the planet. This is not true. Had Skippy had the Scimitar before his coup, it would not have taken several months.

Whatever fleet assets deployed to the region were sent there during the time frame involved imn the movie - this proves nothing so I can't possibly understand whatt concession you are accepting but it isn't mine.

OMFG. You said that the NZ was well patrolled. I demonstrated that it was not well patrolled before the movie. I then demonstrated that there were only eight ships there, two days after the movie began. You have disproven neither. You have not even presented EVIDENCE of the existence of other ships, and ignore verbal evidence even though we have nothing else to go off of.

Oh I see the Romulan threat has stayed the same (if not increased) since TNG yet you think its been reduced and that SF has reduced border patrol and fleet deployment accordingly, prove it.

I already have. There were only eight ships there at the time of "Nemesis." This is inexplicable, given earlier observed fleet deployments, unless we believe that the UFP has relaxed considerably since "End Game." This is a completely logical course of action, given that they have no remaining threats. Moreover, following the Dominion War, the UFP and Romulans were nominally allied with each other, and we know that there were groups within the RSE (Spock) trying to bring peaceful closure to the gap between the two groups.

Exactly my pint mOO you are assuming that SF was stupid enough to send all its fleet against Shinzon because thats what you would have done, I dont think it was the right call and you haven't proved SF thought it was either therefore the size of the battlegroup has no bearing upon anything except the size of the battlegroup.

Who cares? We have no evidence that there were any other ships there. It is the right course of action, so it makes sense for them to do so. You ignore evidence in favor of your truly bizarre claims that there were additional ships there, despite a complete lack of evidence. This is fallacious. We don't assume that the UFP has PKers, because those have never been observed. Similarly, we do not assume that the UFP had fleets in the area of the NZ, unless we have evidence that they did have fleets there.

You, on the other hand, have absolutely no idea what other ships were doing, if they even existed. As I pointed out previously, this is just an appeal to ignorance fallacy.
Now this is an outright lie, I have said many times what other ships would be doing, patroling the Zone, potecting colonies, protecting earth, preparing a counter strike, hell they could have moved fleet assets to cover the Klingon-Romulan border for all I know.

Why would they cover the Klingon-Romulan border? You have no evidence that they were doing ANY of this. Further, you assume that the UFP would be willing to sell out Earth for its outlying colonies, which we know that they were not willing to do in the past (ref. "Paradise Lost," the Maquis resistance movement, etc.), and we have no evidence that their thought-pattern has changed since then. Demonstrate that these ships existed. All you're doing is attacking my evidence, but you haven't even presented a SHRED of evidence that these other fleets existed.

Again your opinion on what they did doesnt count as canon fact.

No, but it is supported by canon evidence. Again, all you're doing is attacking my evidence. You have not demonstrated that additional fleets existed. You still have not shown any evidence that they did.

Different eras (within the last 15 years, endgame was a year ago - not exaclty a different era, FC was a couple of years before that and so on), you are starting to debate my argument because you know realise that your entire argument is based upon your opinion based upon a tiny flimsy quote that can (and has been) handily dealt with.

Outright lie. You have no evidence that these mysterious fleets existed, therefore the ONLY possible logical conclusion is that they do not. Do we assume the existence of God because life was "created" in the past? Of course not. Similarly, your ideas are based solely around an appeal to ignorance. I have demonstrated verbal dialogue as evidence. I have exhibited the star-map (which conveniently showed NO other ships) as evidence. I have examined that evidence and drawn conclusions based on it. You have no evidence, and have merely attacked my theory with another theory that has no evidence, whatsoever, to support it. Again, when you demonstrate ANYTHING that says that there were more ships than the seven and the E-E, I will believe you. The fact is that you have not. The dialogue stands, unless we have something else that contradicts it (ie. visuals. ie. Another, even less ambiguous piece of dialogue).

Again you DON'T have any evidence they sent every ship you have what you would have done projected onto SF, that doesn't count.

Bullshit. I have a piece of dialogue that clearly refers to the seven ships as the singular, one and only group of ships in the region. I have a map that shows seven of them. The fleet is led by a ship-class that, until recently, was the flagship of the UFP (Galaxy Class), and would still be if not for the Sovereign and Prometheus classes. You have NOTHING to show the existence of another group of ships.

Yet again you cling to this argument that since thats all they sent to take no Shinzon thats all they have got, yuo havent proved it other than to say "thts what I would have done", I hav given many reasons to think this was a bad idea and enough reasons to point that your opinion isn't the only valid one.

No, that's an interpretation of the evidence that we have. It is a conclusion drawn from the evidence.

Ermm Dilithium moons can (and have) blown up in the past, you think SF who have opperatives at the highest levels of he RSE and can take images of Romulus so precise you can make out a guys fac wouldn't notice something like this? Shinzon mayh have been holding the mine hostage but that still doesn't = coup, we saw a Klingon world (kreos 6 I think) undergoing a rebellion - did the high council start panicking about being overhtrown? no.

Oh, come, now. They were talking about negotiating, presumably with a rebel faction, and were afraid of losing the mines (plural, despite what you say). The military was clearly incapable of fighting the Reman revolt, which was presumably led by Shinzon. SF knew none of this. Even this would be enough to warrant the dispatch of additional forces to the Neutral Zone, but we know that SF did not do this because the E-E was the closest ship. This either demonstrates a UFP policy that is completely inconsistent with our modern world, or a lack of preparation. This is not evidence, per se, of my theory, but my theory would allow this to be predicted.

The senate didn't see the Romulan military switching sides so I dont think SF could have been honestly expected to.

Perhaps not, but the UFP should have operatives within the military that the Romulan Senate does not have. Generally speaking, the US government would have no idea if the military was going to rebel. Given that the UFP is supposed to have the head of Romulan internal security on their side, one would expect that they could have known about the coup ahead of time. Generally speaking, groups with powerful internal security services are only vulnerable to coups if their intelligence service cooperates by concealing information. Nonetheless, it is possible that you were correct. This would only give SF two or three days to respond to the new threat, instead of the weeks and months that I had believed.

Demonstrate SF has all the battle planning of a Lemon and will hand the RSE everything upto and including Earth just to chance Shinzon, while he did need Picard by the time we caught up with him it was already getting to the stage where it was too late, if 50 ships had been covering the Ent-E it would be suicide so in a fit of anger (as he does have in the movie) he would go after earth.

Better to hand something over to your enemies than have it destroyed utterly. The UFP seems very hesitant to open fire on its own citizens, and seems to have come to the general consensus that if the UFP is to be destroyed, it is better if the enemy gets its hands on it than if it is destroyed. This is demonstrated during the Dominon War in "Paradise Lost," and the episode where they predict the results of the war (albeit incorrectly), and decide that the UFP will be part of the Dominion, but will eventually be able to rebel. Moreover, you are attacking the prediction of a theory instead of either its evidence or the theory itself.

The fleet taken literally could mean every single SF ship in action - why not go the whole hog and spout this lunarcy instead?

Again Geordi said "The Fleets in" he was refering to no specific fleet smiply refering to THE fleet as ships sent by SF command, a number of ships etc etc, you one piece of flimsy dialogue and your OPINION do not amount t canon fact and to then go on and use an isolated action (unproven I might add) to say that SF has gone back to TNG level (or even lower you would have us believe) state is A) Foolish due to you not proving you actual theory B) stupid because its one isolated incident in a vacumm and C)just plain dumb because even if they HAD weakened their border control (which you havent proven) it cuold simply be because they were working towards peace with Romulas etc.

No, but we have nothing to contradict them with. Again, you are merely attacking evidence instead of demonstrating that your theory is correct, or presenting any evidence that it is correct. Your opinions on things being foolish, stupid, or just plain dumb are OPINION and do not constitute canon fact. Moreover, in this particular case you may be wrong in what is your opinion, as it would be astonishing if SF did maintain its military build-up, given its prior history, following the conclusion of a war. My theory is based on evidence, and your theory is based on nothing but your own wishful thinking. You have no evidnece that your theory is correct, and I DO have evidence that supports my theory.

There is no evidence to show that other ships where in the area except prior knowledge of SF deployment, there is no evidence against other ships being in the area ships but your opion on what should have been done.

Sure there is. It is predicted by my theory, which is consistent with facts demonstrated in "Nemesis." Surely you don't think that evidence from prior shows can overrule evidence from this film? Should I assume that because the Aztecs were known to build pyramids and sacrifice humans on occasion, modern-day Mexico must have similar customs? Of course not. This is because newer evidence from the period is more reliable for predicting things than extrapolating from the rest of history. We should only extrapolate things from history if we have no other evidence in an area, or unless it is completely clear that there is an anomaly. In this case we have neither, and so must assume that those were the only seven ships.

In normal life? SF had been building up because of the Borg, Romulans and Klingon and then later the Dominion, the Borg are still a threat, the Romulans are still a threat, the Klingnos aren't and the Dominion is a reduced threat.

The Borg may have been completely destroyed by the events of "End Game." It is clear that they have taken serious casualties from both the events in that episode, and to Species 8472, and that they are diminished in military power by these. Since the Borg have only ever been able to threaten Earth with non-tactical cubes, it is likely that they do not have the firepower right now to mount another such attack. Additionally, the TPT's are effective against Borg cubes, and it is likely that SF is now much better prepared for dealing with the Borg, at least in the immediate future. The Romulans have taken casualties during the Dominion War, and are nominally allied with the UFP until the start of "Nemesis." That makes them a reduced threat, though still a military threat if there is one to be found. Both the Cardassians and the Klingons were military destroyed by the Dominion War.

There has been no letting up yet you say there has been.

Again, you attack an accurate theory's prediction, which has been observed, for no reason. We SEE that there has been a relaxation since "End Game." My theory predicts this. Your theory has NO explanation for the lack of ships, and is contradicted by canon.

You ask me to prove additional ships again, I have given evidence that SF does what im describing you show me evidence that proves these previous actions and mindsets are no longer in effect.

No you haven't. You have demonstrated that your theory PREDICTS there to be more ships, but your theory has no evidence supporting it. My theory DOES have evidence supporting it, and is therefore likely to be a more accurate theory. NTM the fact that my theory ties together a great deal of observations about the UFP in "Nemesis."

You are the one trying to prove a change in mindset (based upon these incident alone which in turn is based upon you opinon), so you prove this change in mindset, yous till havent proven SF had all available ships there since you havent you cant prove SF had no ships along the border, its possible for some very far out reason they didnt have any other ships available however since Im not trying to build an entir etheory regarding the Federation on information I dont have,im ok you however are not.

I'm not trying to prove a change in mindset, I'm trying to demonstrate that the mindset the UFP had after ST:VI is still present, and the one after the Cardassian-UFP war that occured before TNG. Your theory is the one that is trying to prove that SF has dramatically changed its methods, from the ones seen previously.

Ther eare reason to not have you entire flee go after one ship, hand the Federation to the Romulans, scare Shinzon off anf thus void the reason for your mission (get shinzon to save th federation) and still fail tat mission (scare Shinzon off).

Your theory PREDICTS that they would not have gone after Skippy with the whole fleet, but your theory STILL doesn't have any evidence to support it. Mine does. Mine is consistent with that evidence, and its predictions are confirmed by a great deal of other observations.

I havent proven these ships exist (although I have given every reason to think so) however you havent proven SF sent everything it had, you are building a theory on your unproven guesswork, I'm not theres the diff you see.

No I'm not. I have evidence to support my theory, and its predictions are confirmed by the canon facts. Your theory predicts things less accurately and relies exclusively on guess work.

Oh I see he was given faulty info n SF ship positions, now dont you think he might have twigged if Sf had said they had a huge amount os ships on the border, he does have his own intel network you know, its far more likely SF simply left worlds open on the info they gave him but actually covered those worlds in order to lay a trap for his forces, this however has no bearing what so ever on his forces attacking elsewhere along the border nd I think you know it.

That would be good. It might even get him to stop invading the UFP, which is the ultimate goal of the entire endeavor. Besides, you are once more engaging in speculation. Demonstrate evidence that your theory is more likely to be correct. The ONLY way I can immediately see as to your doing that is by demonstrating that SF had additional ships. Until we observe this, though, my theory is more accurate because it is more in-line with what we observe, and its predictions have all been confirmed by canon.

No i have said countless times that I disagree with the need to move every SF ship within range to meet up with the battlegroup, I see no need for it and therefore I see the size of the battlegroup having any limiting effect on SF stance.

Your opinion does not a canon fact make. Your theory, which is STILL based on nothing, is STILL less accurate than my theory, which is based on some evidence taken from the film.

Yehan and Admiral Ross stated that the Feds only hope was to take out the White Storage during the war, he didnt however pull every single asset he had to mount a frontal assault and he sure as hell didnt hand them Earth or Vulcan to try and accomplish that mission, Picard was of the opinion it was SF only hope however that doesn't mean SF agreed and it didn't mean SF would pull ships from protecting earth (and the border and colonies etc) to try and race to the meeting place when there was no need.

YES HE DID! You are lying, and bending the truth to prove your point. He DID send every resource that he had that would have any chance of being successful into the operation. He sent the ONE ship that he had that would stand any chance of sneaking into the facility and destroying it. Sending a GCS would actually jeopardize the mission. In this case, an extra GCS or Valiant or similar would have AIDED the chances of success in the operation, and shouldhave been deployed if it was available. Thank you for proving my point.

Im getting tired of explainnig the gaping holes in yuor plan but you just dont get it and whats worse you then build an entire theoru outlinging the Feds state of mind upon it.

You haven't explained squat. You sit there and attack my theory's PREDICTIONS (which have all been observed) by using your theory's PREDICTIONS, which explain much of the same information in a different way. You've neglected only one thing: EVIDENCE FOR YOUR THEORY. I have done nothing of the sort. My theory is more likely to be correct than yours, because mine is based on evidence and draws conclusions from that evidence. It also accurately predicts a number of other things shown in the movie. Your theory is based on NOTHING. NADA. ZILCH. It accurately predicts some of the things shown in the movie, but relies on one crucial thing that there is no evidence for: ADDITIONAL SHIPS IN THE AREA. Mine does not rely on this, and is therefore more accurate.

The region was a small sections of the border, we dont see the rest of the border, we dont see the sector behind those, we dont see earth and so on.

OMFG. So what? This does not represent evidence that there were additional ships. This is just a crappy attack on my evidence. Unfortunately for you, it DOES show a very significant portion of the Neutral Zone, and it only has SEVEN SHIPS, plus the E-E in it. Your theory does NOT predict this. My theory DOES predict this. Additionally, MY theory is based on evidence. YOUR theory is based on no evidence, except for your own delusions. Therefore, my theory is more accurate BOTH in premise and predictive qualities.

No mention was made of earths defense just like none where made about other ships therefore both dont exist - gottya.

No you don't. Absence of evidence IS evidence of absence, though it is tremendously flimsy evidence. Thanks for proving that you rely on appeal to ignorance fallacies. Besides, we DO hear about their defenses. We hear that their only chance at stopping Shinzon is if Shinzon attacks the E-E.

I have no alternative theory accept that since we dont see the Feds deployment its logical to assume they are deployed in a manner to how they have been before, you are saying its a new era but to prove that you are using thje fact that its a new era obviously you see the problem here, you are using your conclusion as one of the main factors in reaching that conclusion (because without it you don't have any evidence SF has changed its fleet deployments for what they once where).

Ah, but you DO have an alternative theory. Your theory is that there were a number of other ships and defenses in the region. This theory does not predict the lack of ships in the Neutral Zone, except for the seven ships and the E-E. My theory DOES predict this. Moreover, my theory is based on evidence, while your theory is based on appeal to ignorance fallacies. This is the theory that you have CONSISTENTLY presented during this debate, but my theory is more accurate both in prediction and premise, and it seems as though your theory began with a conclusion and worked its way backwards, rather than the other way around like me.

You claim no ships between the NZ and earth without evidence, you claim no ships along the NZ again without evidence (did yu think that the NZ may be long enough that they couldnt pull forces from across it to converge in time even if they were astupid enough to do so same for earth, Picard has been on NZ before and been out of real time comms range so it must be a long border etc) and then you use these claims to justify a conclusion based upon one unproven and isolated incident.
Again my opinon is that SF wouldnt converge all its forces yours is that they would - everything else is window dressing and since we aren't going to change our minds this is pointless however you will probably once again accuse me of being a coward when in fact im being sensible and reasonable.

And your theory is less accurate than mine in premise and prediction. Concession accepted.