Star Trek 09 review thread

[Jon]

This one is probably less critical than I expected... but critical none the less!

+http://ex-astris-scientia.org/episodes/trekxi.htm

[Bounty]

the route the writers chose seems to have very little payoff for the implausibility they add.

The payoff was Kirk in a gold uniform sitting in the captain's chair just before the credits roll. As it's, y'know, supposed to be.

[Bounty]

This one is probably less critical than I expected... but critical none the less!

+http://ex-astris-scientia.org/episodes/trekxi.htm

Considering he initially put a notice on the main page that he wasn't about to see the movie, I'd say that's glowing praise. Expect the number to crawl up as time goes by - I think he did like the movie but he's ranted so much against it it'd be embarrassing to do a 180.

[LMSx]

the route the writers chose seems to have very little payoff for the implausibility they add.

The payoff was Kirk in a gold uniform sitting in the captain's chair just before the credits roll. As it's, y'know, supposed to be.

I had been thinking big picture, over a couple of movies, but the point is taken that within the movie actually seeing what Pine and Nero/Old Spock were talking about for the last 2 hours completes it thematically better than I gave it credit. Still I echo Degan that it seems it could have somehow gone down a little smoother.

[DaveJB]

Something I just thought about...
Spoiler

I sure hope Nero collapsed the Hobus star before he attacked Vulcan, as some people have suggested. Otherwise, it means that the technology to develop red matter will probably never be invented, and when Hobus does eventually go nova a century later, it'll turn into the galaxy devouring hellstorm that Future Spock thought it'd become if they didn't collapse it.

Alternatively, I suppose red matter could have been developed before the movie took place and Past Spock just wasn't in the loop regarding its existence - although for everyone's sake, hopefully one of the Vulcan survivors remembers how to make the stuff.

[Oskuro]

They destroyed a planet full of people that have no logical reason to get out of bed in the morning, the rest of Star Trek was blinked out of existence and I did find it entertaining despite the multiple glarring flaws and wanton abuse of science.

BLACK HOLES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!

But they should.

[Worlds Spanner]

Obviously they wanted him to sit int he chair, cross his legs, and look like Shatner.

[Patroklos]

So, he goes back in time when Romulus still exists and despite having 25 years to think about it, it never occurs to him to maybe warn the Romulans? Is Nero's age ever given? He and his wife might actually be alive already in the alternate timeline.

Also, the movie never says whether the offending star is actually that of Romulus's system. I am going to assume its not or else Spock wouldn't have had time to mount a rescue. If it is not, why did Nero not just go ahead and destroy that offending star with a black hole and be done with it?

Also, again, earlier in this thread it was insinuated that Spock caused the super nova in the comic, in the movie this is never stated and rather the super nova seems to be a natural disaster and Spock is merely trying to help out. If there are critical plot points in the comic that 95% of the movie viewers will never know about then it helps explain why the plot as scene in the movie is a miserable failure, though it doesn't excuse it.

[Bounty]

So, he goes back in time when Romulus still exists and despite having 25 years to think about it, it never occurs to him to maybe warn the Romulans? Is Nero's age ever given? He and his wife might actually be alive already in the alternate timeline.

Who says he didn't warn the Romulans?

His age isn't given but I doubt he was 140 when he travelled back; even in 2258 he looked barely in his late forties.

Also, the movie never says whether the offending star is actually that of Romulus's system. If it is not, why did Nero not just go ahead and destroy that offending star with a black hole and be done with it?

Because he wanted revenge first. Whatever he does, his own life is still over, and he wants to see someone suffer for that. Remember that for 25 years he had no access to the red matter Spock was carrying; all he could do was wait for him to arrive and once he did, he wanted payback first.

[Patroklos]

Because he wanted revenge first. Whatever he does, his own life is still over, and he wants to see someone suffer for that. Remember that for 25 years he had no access to the red matter Spock was carrying; all he could do was wait for him to arrive and once he did, he wanted payback first.

That makes no sense. His grief is first and formost based on the death of his wife, it is quite clear that securing her safety would be his primary objective if the opportunity presented itself (which it did).

After all, the Federation would still be there to destroy afterward.

In any case, why the hell did Spock surrender a WMD apparently more powerful than a super nove to a dude he knew was his mortal enemy (again, for no logical reason but whatever)?

[Bounty]

In any case, why the hell did Spock surrender a WMD apparently more powerful than a super nove to a dude he knew was his mortal enemy (again, for no logical reason but whatever)?

Spock didn't surrender, he was captured.

That makes no sense. His grief is first and formost based on the death of his wife, it is quite clear that securing her safety would be his primary objective if the opportunity presented itself (which it did).

His grief is based on Vulcan and the Federation failing to save his wife in the first place. It's no so much her death as the life he could have had that has driven him to revenge. Your reasoning applies both ways: he has more than a century to disarm the star, so why not get even first?

[Patroklos]

Spock didn't surrender, he was captured.

As new less experianced and not and espert on the ship New Spock proved to us later on, that vessel was more than capable of just escaping or ramming Nero's ship (or just firing off the black hole weapon in the first place). Hell just let Nero destroy the damn thing himself.

There is no explanation for Spock allowing the weapon to fall into Nero's hands. There needs to be.

His grief is based on Vulcan and the Federation failing to save his wife in the first place. It's no so much her death as the life he could have had that has driven him to revenge. Your reasoning applies both ways: he has more than a century to disarm the star, so why not get even first?

You are not following the causality here. Everything flows from the death of his wife, which he is now in a position to prevent in the first place (as well as everyone else living on his homeworld). The idea that someone would ignore this opportunity to engage in some petty revenge that squanders the opportunity to relieve the true source of his greif is daft in the extreme.

PERHAPS if Nero had been acting in the heat of the moment we could hand wave it, but he wasn't. He had 25 years to think about it.

[Bounty]

There is no explanation for Spock allowing the weapon to fall into Nero's hands. There needs to be.

We didn't see how Nero captured Spock's ship, so I don't see how you can make definitive statement about what he should have done or may or may not have tried.

You are not following the causality here. Everything flows from the death of his wife

In the original timeline, which he left behind. He makes it abundantly clear in his conversation with Pike that he doesn't give two shits about causality ("don't tell me I didn't see it destroyed"); from his point of view he saw Romulus burn, from his point of view his wife died due to Spock's failure, and he will make Spock suffer for this before he attempts any sort of mission to rescue the alternate version of the planet.

[Patroklos]

We didn't see how Nero captured Spock's ship, so I don't see how you can make definitive statement about what he should have done or may or may not have tried.

I am not being definative. From what we see onscreen there is no explaination for Spock screwing up, but we know he did. I want them to explain it (which they didn't, a reason this movie sucks in this regard), because right now it makes no sense.

In the original timeline, which he left behind. He makes it abundantly clear in his conversation with Pike that he doesn't give two shits about causality ("don't tell me I didn't see it destroyed"); from his point of view he saw Romulus burn, from his point of view his wife died due to Spock's failure, and he will make Spock suffer for this before he attempts any sort of mission to rescue the alternate version of the planet.

Pike was questioning what Nero was saying because he didn't understand exactly where Nero is from. Nero, however, knows he is in the past. Not some alternate timeline, but just the past. His whole character is based around the loss of his wife, everything else flows from this. The idea that he willfully disregards his still living wife simply doesn't follow. It is one of a dozen major plot wholes that in the end relegates thsi movie to a pop action CGI demonstrator.

Not the first to ST has done this to itself.

[Bounty]

The idea that he willfully disregards his still living wife simply doesn't follow. It is one of a dozen major plot wholes that in the end relegates thsi movie to a pop action CGI demonstrator.

Only if you insist on characters, who by their own admission are not acting rationally, behaving exactly as you would imagine them to behave.

Not that his wife is "still living" anyway; he saw her die. It'll be a century until an alternate version of her may or may not be born. For all intents and purposes she's gone, and if he wants to put payback at #1 on his to-do list ahead of "saving the Empire" (which, I don't need to remind you, he explicitly stated was his next step) that's hardly worthy of being called "plot hole". At best it's a character flaw on Nero's part... in the sense that he lets the grief of losing his home, his wife, his unborn child and his future overcome his reasoning.

[Ted C]

His age isn't given but I doubt he was 140 when he travelled back; even in 2258 he looked barely in his late forties.

Since Vulcans have a life expectance of 400 years and are closely related to Romulans, a Romulan who looks 40 could easily be around 200 years old.

Pike was questioning what Nero was saying because he didn't understand exactly where Nero is from. Nero, however, knows he is in the past. Not some alternate timeline, but just the past. His whole character is based around the loss of his wife, everything else flows from this. The idea that he willfully disregards his still living wife simply doesn't follow. It is one of a dozen major plot wholes that in the end relegates thsi movie to a pop action CGI demonstrator.

There is no reason to assume that Nero does not realize he is now in an alternate timeline. Knowing that, the woman in this timeline is NOT his wife. The woman he married is DEAD. He can potentially save the relationship that his future self and future wife in THIS timeline will have, but he CANNOT save the woman he married. He CAN get revenge on Spock, who is the only person in this timeline who comes from his own original timeline and knows what happened. Nero isn't seeking revenge on the Federation, he's seeking revenge on Spock, personally, by destroying everything in this new timeline that Spock would hold dear and making sure Spock knows about it.

As Spock said, Nero is a very disturbed Romulan.

[Patroklos]

Only if you insist on characters, who by their own admission are not acting rationally, behaving exactly as you would imagine them to behave.

Nero's very inrrationality should have place his restoration of his previous life at the top of his list. Not a that Nero ever comes off as particularly insane in the movie anyway. In fact, he is portrayed as calculating (waiting 25 years instead of trying to screw up the Federation then).

We can argue about motivation all day, but there is no denying that the loss of his wife is a far more base motivation for his actions than the follow on revenge. He says as much himself.

Not that his wife is "still living" anyway; he saw her die. It'll be a century until an alternate version of her may or may not be born. For all intents and purposes she's gone, and if he wants to put payback at #1 on his to-do list ahead of "saving the Empire" (which, I don't need to remind you, he explicitly stated was his next step) that's hardly worthy of being called "plot hole". At best it's a character flaw on Nero's part... in the sense that he lets the grief of losing his home, his wife, his unborn child and his future overcome his reasoning.

150 years is only half the lifespan of a Romulan or Vulcan. There is no reason not to believe the middle aged looking Nero was not already alive. In fact, since the Federation and Romulans have almost zero interaction at this time, even if he was not it is not likely him destroying the Kelvin would do anything to effect his birth. Him marauding around destroying planets, however, DOES all but ensure his wife is lost to him yet again.

Again, we can argue it all day. His chosen course of action does not fullfil his stated motivations.

[Captain Kruger]

When do we start coining stupid nicknames for differentiating the two timelines? Like 'Neotrek' and 'Paleotrek'?

We could just use oST and nST. **shrug**

[McC]

When do we start coining stupid nicknames for differentiating the two timelines? Like 'Neotrek' and 'Paleotrek'?

The movie itself sort of hints at the idea that Nimoy-Spock is "Spock Prime." This might suggest the original continuity is the "Prime" continuity, while the new continuity goes without a moniker.

[Havok]

It's not just his wife, but his UNBORN child that is driving his rage and grief. Not to mention HIS Romulus that is gone. Not a planet 140 years in the past. He knows perfectly well that if he goes and fucks with his wife or even his current self (if either of them are alive yet, I'm guessing not, since he and his wife are expecting their first child it seems) that he could change what is supposed to happen.

He also seems to realize, in my view, that his wife is gone to him forever, once he went back in time (which he had no intention of doing) and altered the time line. His main goal at this point is just to ensure that Romulus is the main, unopposed power in the quadrant, and to make them strong enough that they don't have to rely on Spock or the Federation in the future for any type of help. I have no doubt, and I believe that he alluded to it, that he was going to turn his ship and it's technology over the the Empire once his mission was complete.

Also, you have to take into account that he "chose a life of honest labor". The way he said that, and how obviously smart he is, means that he probably could have lead a life of influence in the Romulan Empire and possibly feels that if he did so, he could have made a difference in his own time.

There is all sorts of bad that this guy is dealing with in his own mind.

[Havok]

When do we start coining stupid nicknames for differentiating the two timelines? Like 'Neotrek' and 'Paleotrek'?

The movie itself sort of hints at the idea that Nimoy-Spock is "Spock Prime." This might suggest the original continuity is the "Prime" continuity, while the new continuity goes without a moniker.

Hints? You mean like actually crediting him with that name?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I feel like even if Kirk had been "merely" been granted a commendation and a promotion to a midlevel position, absolutely no one in the audience would have blinked if Kirk starts the sequel as a Captain, considering this movie's basically about his awesome potential. So considering he could plausibly be a captain either way, the route the writers chose seems to have very little payoff for the implausibility they add.

They could've done a whole character-oriented trilogy of films. End the first film with Kirk getting a gold-plated 'attaboy and a midlevel commission.

Have the second film start with the Enterprise under the command of some other officer who used to be some midlevel officer before Nero converted a large portion of Starfleet to incandescent vapor, and explore Kirk learning how to work with the system and grow into being someone really worthy of taking command. You could also explore his relationship with Spock. Since Spock (Nimoy) essentially told them they're going to be great friends, have them start out going "I don't know what the hell that old coot was talking about, that man/Vulcan is intolerable!" and have their friendship grow through the film. Since this is Hollywood, of course Kirk and co. will have the chance to shine and save the day, or at least the Enterprise.

And then the third film could have Kirk in actual command of the Enterprise. Or something. Mind you, I understand why they chose to do things the way they did. This Trek reboot is a gamble for Paramount, and a sequel wasn't guaranteed.

[McC]

The movie itself sort of hints at the idea that Nimoy-Spock is "Spock Prime." This might suggest the original continuity is the "Prime" continuity, while the new continuity goes without a moniker.

Hints? You mean like actually crediting him with that name?

Er, right. I meant it hints at what to call the continuity, not hints at what to call the character.

The movie itself sort of hints at the idea that the two continuities already have names, by saying Nimoy-Spock is "Spock Prime."

Need more sleep.

[Patroklos]

Well, I don't think we are getting anywhere with the motivation thing, it really is a judgement call. Now onto the second gaping plot hole: Why does Nero blame Spock for doing nothing but trying to save his wife and homeworld form a natural super nova as far as the movie is concerned?

I also must point out that because of this cadet to captain BS the new characters are severly hamstrung. We are now supposed to believe that all these main characters spend their whole careers on one starship? That means no back story, no experiances on other vessels with other captains and aquaintances with other starfleet officers. No knowledge of anything starfleet besides the Enterprise. No chance of promotion, for thier entire 30 year careers Ohura will always be a comms officer, Sulu a helmsmen, Spock the XO, etc. etc. etc. They are for all intents and purposes complete dead enders. Depressing

[Anguirus]

Since Vulcans have a life expectance of 400 years

No they don't.

Anyway, all this stuff about how Nero should OMG rush around and save his wife and crush the Hobus star is patent nonsense. Why?

Because he has 140 years to fix that shit.

On the other hand, the longer he waits to fuck up the Feddies, the harder it will be.

As for Kirk being made a captain at the end, yeah, it stretches credulity but in terms of audience satisfaction and concluding the arc of the film it was absolutely the right choice. Imagine a more-or-less typical audience going through the whole movie to find out that Kirk's big reward is to be a Lieutenant JG or something. People would start throwing popcorn and drinks.

Besides, Pike was throwing around field commissions left and right BEFORE the entire Earth and Vulcan defense fleets were fed their own warp nacelles. You think they are going to send Uhura and McCoy back to the academy now? I think they can finish their last few classes by subspace link whilst flying around being awesome on the Enterprise. I mean, it's not like they weren't all seniors (even Kirk, he was in line to finish early).