Star Trek 09 review thread

[JME2]

The movie itself sort of hints at the idea that Nimoy-Spock is "Spock Prime." This might suggest the original continuity is the "Prime" continuity, while the new continuity goes without a moniker.

Hints? You mean like actually crediting him with that name?

Er, right. I meant it hints at what to call the continuity, not hints at what to call the character.

The movie itself sort of hints at the idea that the two continuities already have names, by saying Nimoy-Spock is "Spock Prime."

Need more sleep.

In online discussions since last Friday, I've been referring to the divergent realities as Canon-Prime and Canon-A.

[Gil Hamilton]

I do wonder why none of the Romulans thought that since they were back in time and since they had captured Spock's ship, why they couldn't have shlepped off to the star that was going to eventually destroy Romulus and blow it up before it got a chance. That fixes their problem a bit more directly. Then they can blow up Vulcan or the Federation with the backing of the Romulan Empire of the time.

I suppose it's psychological. 25 years of being crazy out of their minds doesn't encourage people to think straight.

[erik_t]

Yeah. That's the only real weakness I thought the movie had; underdeveloped villains. I agree with... someone... who earlier pointed out that Khan was no more developed in ST2 (not counting Space Seed, which the audience couldn't be expected to have seen). However, I think Nero could have been a much more sympathetic villain. The guy surely WOULD have been crazy after decades away from anything but his own crew. The whole crew ought to be stark raving mad by that point. That could have been made more explicit with no more time than the movie took with (admittedly very well done) scary ice monsters.

[Ted C]

Since Vulcans have a life expectance of 400 years

No they don't.

My bad. I recalled that figure from TOS "The Deadly Years" and TNG "Sarek", but I appear to be mistaken.

[Patroklos]

No they don't.

I don't know about 400, but we know of 300 year old ones which still proves the point.

Anyway, all this stuff about how Nero should OMG rush around and save his wife and crush the Hobus star is patent nonsense. Why?

Because he has 140 years to fix that shit.

Really? He did? Because apparently due to his unsound course of action chosen he only had 25 years and didn't "fix that shit."

On the other hand, the longer he waits to fuck up the Feddies, the harder it will be.

What does it take to go take care of that star and maybe recruit a whole damn empire to help him out on his quest? A year (a few days for just attacking the star)?

As for Kirk being made a captain at the end, yeah, it stretches credulity but in terms of audience satisfaction and concluding the arc of the film it was absolutely the right choice. Imagine a more-or-less typical audience going through the whole movie to find out that Kirk's big reward is to be a Lieutenant JG or something. People would start throwing popcorn and drinks.

I agree with you here, but they didn't have to go about it the way they did. There was no reason to have to start the main plot when they were still in the academy. They could have had a few academy scenes, and then transplanted the later half of them into them as junior officers on the Enterprise a few years later. That would have at least given them some time as actual starfleet officers. The undergratuate --> CAPTAIN! thing is just too much of a stretch to reasonably expect people to suspend their disbelief for.

Besides, Pike was throwing around field commissions left and right BEFORE the entire Earth and Vulcan defense fleets were fed their own warp nacelles. You think they are going to send Uhura and McCoy back to the academy now? I think they can finish their last few classes by subspace link whilst flying around being awesome on the Enterprise. I mean, it's not like they weren't all seniors (even Kirk, he was in line to finish early).

They could do that. As Ensigns.

[Patroklos]

I suppose it's psychological. 25 years of being crazy out of their minds doesn't encourage people to think straight.

Actually that 25 years removing them from the heat of the moment removes plausible motivation for doing what the ended up doing.

[Bounty]

Really? He did? Because apparently due to his unsound course of action chosen he only had 25 years and didn't "fix that shit."

Eh? He didn't pick where in time he'd end up, and he had to wait for Spock to come through with the red matter before he could even begin to think about saving Romulus... after he satisfied his need for payback. The 25 year wait wasn't voluntary.

Actually that 25 years removing them from the heat of the moment removes plausible motivation for doing what the ended up doing.

A grudge that festers for 25 years is not a grudge that gets less intense.

[Gil Hamilton]

Actually that 25 years removing them from the heat of the moment removes plausible motivation for doing what the ended up doing.

What I'm saying is that he clearly hatched the plan before Spock arrived to grab the Red Matter and blow up Federation planets with it. He also could have taken the Red Matter and finished Spock's mission before it became an out-of-hand problem, like when it was about to flash fry his homeplanet.

At that point, he could have celebrated the survival of the Romulan Empire and his lady wife by taking a tour of the Federation with his superweapon.

[Anguirus]

Really? He did? Because apparently due to his unsound course of action chosen he only had 25 years and didn't "fix that shit."

Because all villains plan for their deaths at the hand of the heroes.

They could have had a few academy scenes, and then transplanted the later half of them into them as junior officers on the Enterprise a few years later. That would have at least given them some time as actual starfleet officers.

Then you lose the drama of scrambling the cadets at the last minute. Sticking another "Three Years Later" after the Kobayashi Maru scene would have sucked the air out of the film. Writing a screenplay is a balancing act between effective drama and maintaining credulity. One will always be sacrificed to the other to some extent.

The undergratuate --> CAPTAIN! thing is just too much of a stretch to reasonably expect people to suspend their disbelief for.

No, you can't suspend your disbelief. No one I went to see the movie with agrees with you. It could have been the whole save the planet thing?

[Patroklos]

Eh? He didn't pick where in time he'd end up, and he had to wait for Spock to come through with the red matter before he could even begin to think about saving Romulus... after he satisfied his need for payback. The 25 year wait wasn't voluntary.

Begin to think about saving Romulus? How about telling them it was going to happen in the first place and give them 100+ years to figure out a solution? How about giving his Borg technology to the Romulans?

It is irrelevant. Because of his course of action he did not in fact "fix that shit."

A grudge that festers for 25 years is not a grudge that gets less intense.

Are you still madly in love with the chick who broke your heart in high school? Do you still hate that bully who stole your lunch money in high school? Sorry, the idea that ALL the Romulans onboard never thought about what they were doing for 25 years is just daft.

What I'm saying is that he clearly hatched the plan before Spock arrived to grab the Red Matter and blow up Federation planets with it. He also could have taken the Red Matter and finished Spock's mission before it became an out-of-hand problem, like when it was about to flash fry his homeplanet.

At that point, he could have celebrated the survival of the Romulan Empire and his lady wife by taking a tour of the Federation with his superweapon.

Exactly. Even a cursory examination woudl lead anyone to save Romulus first, before going into danger.

[Patroklos]

Because all villains plan for their deaths at the hand of the heroes.

Well, thats another thing, villians are not supposed to know they are villians. In any case, the delay to take care of one before the other would be minimal, considering they just waited 25 years.

Then you lose the drama of scrambling the cadets at the last minute. Sticking another "Three Years Later" after the Kobayashi Maru scene would have sucked the air out of the film. Writing a screenplay is a balancing act between effective drama and maintaining credulity. One will always be sacrificed to the other to some extent.

You obviously haven't seen Ensigns run around during a drill. In any case the whole "for some reason our ships are empty, bring the cadets!" was stupid anyway.

The way I suggested we would get to see a more full development of the characters. They would not have just some superficial school chum comraderie, but the experiance of sharing their learning and stressfull JO years together as comrades at arms.

Oh, and it has the added bonus of actually making sense.

No, you can't suspend your disbelief. No one I went to see the movie with agrees with you. It could have been the whole save the planet thing?

Go see movies with smarter people.

[Samuel]

How do we know he didn't do just that? He could have told them that a Star near by is going to go nuts and to use a black hole to deal with it. Now, what are the War birds power source again

Well, thats another thing, villians are not supposed to know they are villians. In any case, the delay to take care of one before the other would be minimal, considering they just waited 25 years.

Except he just pissed off the Klingons who now really want him dead. Two powers in the region want his head- he doesn't have alot of time.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Yeah. That's the only real weakness I thought the movie had; underdeveloped villains. I agree with... someone... who earlier pointed out that Khan was no more developed in ST2 (not counting Space Seed, which the audience couldn't be expected to have seen). However, I think Nero could have been a much more sympathetic villain. The guy surely WOULD have been crazy after decades away from anything but his own crew. The whole crew ought to be stark raving mad by that point. That could have been made more explicit with no more time than the movie took with (admittedly very well done) scary ice monsters.

Hopefully the DVD will make this a little better when it restores the deleted scenes of Nero in Rura Penthe.

[erik_t]

We'll see. It's not obvious to me why he'd end up in such a place; it seems more like an excuse to drop a name than real character development. In particular, I'm not sure why it would make him more anxious to whack Vulcan than the Klingon homeworld, unless it did just drive him completely off the deep end.

[TithonusSyndrome]

We'll see. It's not obvious to me why he'd end up in such a place; it seems more like an excuse to drop a name than real character development. In particular, I'm not sure why it would make him more anxious to whack Vulcan than the Klingon homeworld, unless it did just drive him completely off the deep end.

Again, all anyone can do is guess, but I assume he wanted the Narada to remain somewhat inconspicuous to maintain the element of surprise and would have to disembark on shuttlecraft voyages from time to time to barter for maintenance parts and food and other things, and it was only a matter of time before he was nabbed by a Klingon sheriff or something.

The Narada's 25 years of waiting for vengeance are probably the likeliest candidate for a TV series to come out of this movie at this point, which is to say that it's not likely at all.

[Havok]

I don't know about 400, but we know of 300 year old ones which still proves the point.

No it doesnt. We see humans that live to be 120, but that is far from the norm and that also has no bearing on how long Romulans live. It just shows the upper limit of Vulcans. Find some 300 year old Romulans and then you may have a case.

[Themightytom]

We'll see. It's not obvious to me why he'd end up in such a place; it seems more like an excuse to drop a name than real character development. In particular, I'm not sure why it would make him more anxious to whack Vulcan than the Klingon homeworld, unless it did just drive him completely off the deep end.

I know right? When Old Spock and new kirk were trudging accross the snowy wasteland someone in the back shouted in a passable nimoy impression "Fuck you Abrahms, I skipped out of tthis scene in Star trek VI! man from a desert world trudging in snow is not logical!"

i don't endorse the comment, I merely point out it was made, and that someone saw right through the evocation. on the other hand they really don't need to go out of ttheir way to INVENT names images and scenery that hasn't been used yet.We'd have to move that whole scene to a jungle or swamp.

he wacked Vulcan because he had just placed ambassador Spock on the surface of the adjacent planet because he wanted him to watch his planet get eaten by a blackhole.

he really had a fetish for making good people watch bad things. I'm not sure why he didn't doa quick scan of the planet to make sure there wasn't er... a federation installation capable of transwarp beaming... nearby, and I'm really kind of dissappointed that Spock knew it was was there and didn't try to use it to save vulcan.

[tim31]

We saw the film at the IMAX last weekend and if anyone had shouted out their own commentary during the show, I would have thrown them down in that big gap between the screen and the first row, no matter how funny they thought they were.

[erik_t]

We'll see. It's not obvious to me why he'd end up in such a place; it seems more like an excuse to drop a name than real character development. In particular, I'm not sure why it would make him more anxious to whack Vulcan than the Klingon homeworld, unless it did just drive him completely off the deep end.

Again, all anyone can do is guess, but I assume he wanted the Narada to remain somewhat inconspicuous to maintain the element of surprise and would have to disembark on shuttlecraft voyages from time to time to barter for maintenance parts and food and other things, and it was only a matter of time before he was nabbed by a Klingon sheriff or something.

The Narada's 25 years of waiting for vengeance are probably the likeliest candidate for a TV series to come out of this movie at this point, which is to say that it's not likely at all.

That's perfectly reasonable. I retract my complaint.

[Havok]

he really had a fetish for making good people watch bad things. I'm not sure why he didn't doa quick scan of the planet to make sure there wasn't er... a federation installation capable of transwarp beaming... nearby, and I'm really kind of dissappointed that Spock knew it was was there and didn't try to use it to save vulcan.

He may have. There was no federation outpost capable of transwarp beaming at the time he deposited Spock on the surface. (If Nero even cared and if he even knew that transporters in this time were not capable of it.) And he probably put Spock on the planet just as he was starting the drill or even after that.

[Bounty]

he really had a fetish for making good people watch bad things. I'm not sure why he didn't doa quick scan of the planet to make sure there wasn't er... a federation installation capable of transwarp beaming... nearby, and I'm really kind of dissappointed that Spock knew it was was there and didn't try to use it to save vulcan.

All the more reason to just go with the idea that Delta Vega isn't anywhere near Vulcan.

[Havok]

he really had a fetish for making good people watch bad things. I'm not sure why he didn't doa quick scan of the planet to make sure there wasn't er... a federation installation capable of transwarp beaming... nearby, and I'm really kind of dissappointed that Spock knew it was was there and didn't try to use it to save vulcan.

All the more reason to just go with the idea that Delta Vega isn't anywhere near Vulcan.

Why are we dismissing what we see on screen? Is there another on screen explanation for how Spock saw Vulcan destroyed? Or is it just, "Well this would make more sense, but I just made it up, have no evidence for it, oh and it happens off screen."?

I didn't think things worked that way around here.

But if we are going with that, then I say we dismiss ALL of the mindmeld scene as not real or accurate and I SAY that Spock made it all up.

[Bounty]

Is there another on screen explanation for how Spock saw Vulcan destroyed?

Thematically? No.

The problem I have with the scene is that to make it work as depicted you need to stretch credibility to the breaking point. I know what is on-screen, it's just that there are other, perhaps less plausible or more contrived explanations (a hologram, a visual depiction of Spock having an Immunity Syndrome moment) than sidestep other issues.

It's a personal justification, not something I would force onto other people as an explanation.

[Havok]

Why why why can't it just be that in this ALTERNATE universe, Delta Vega is just that close to Vulcan. (You know, what we see on screen) The WHOLE movie is replete with changes that can't just be explained by "Kelvin go boom!". How long is it going to take before YOU (Yes you Bounty ) Star Trek geeks just accept that it is not the same universe as TOS and if there is a change, it DOES NOT have to be shoehorned into the TOS universe or explained with context in the TOSU in mind.

WHEN GOD WHEN?!?! WHEN WILL I SEE THE FUCKING SAIL BOAT?!?!?!

[Anguirus]

Go see movies with smarter people.

I think I'll stick with the whole "having friends who don't get their panties in a twist about irrelevancies" thing, but thanks for the suggestion anyway.