Star Trek 09 review thread

[Bounty]

... It's not the planet being called Delta Vega I have a problem with, it's that Scotty was sitting on Vulcan's doorstep with Spock in his front yard, with the former not noticing the planet blowing up above him and the latter not even trying to use Scotty's radio or shuttle to get back home. The entire DV sequence sorta hinges on the planet being a - remote and b - cut off from the Federation which doesn't really work if it's Vulcan's neighbour.

And Spock marooning Kirk on a planet that was about to be severely fucked by Vulcan disappearing. That tends to mess up orbits and, you know, habitability.

[erik_t]

Why why why can't it just be that in this ALTERNATE universe, Delta Vega is just that close to Vulcan. (You know, what we see on screen) The WHOLE movie is replete with changes that can't just be explained by "Kelvin go boom!". How long is it going to take before YOU (Yes you Bounty ) Star Trek geeks just accept that it is not the same universe as TOS and if there is a change, it DOES NOT have to be shoehorned into the TOS universe or explained with context in the TOSU in mind.

WHEN GOD WHEN?!?! WHEN WILL I SEE THE FUCKING SAIL BOAT?!?!?!

The only problem is that this would require Delta Vega to be a moon of Vulcan. This isn't impossible, but it seems unlikely for a place that feels like a remote outpost.

Bounty, the orbit of DV would remain unchanged. At a distance, a black hole is no more bothersome than an equal-mass normal object.

[Knife]

Indeed. Before the movie I was a bit mad that it wasn't billed as a revamp, but after watching it...it is a revamp. Toss the old continuity out the window and only take wide and vague themes.

[Bounty]

Again, I don't give two shits about the damn planet being called Delta Vega, I just don't like that scene opening up whoppers of plot holes. This has nothing to do with LOL revamp or 'hehe teh dumv trekkies arent down with the new trek".

[Havok]

I said this earlier about the outpost.
It is within spitting distance of Vulcan... why would it be advanced or have sensors or anything when VULCAN is right there? It is a punishment posting as it being there is completely redundant and absolutely useless to the Federation and Starfleet, unless you think that a Federation outpost is going to do a better job than what Vulcan can do in monitoring their system and the surrounding whatever.

In fact, the fact that it is that close to Vulcan would probably mean that they don't even want any kind of sensors or monitoring going on there.

If you look at it like that, it falls in line perfectly with what we see in the movie i.e. Scotty having no fucking idea what is going on in the Federation.

[TithonusSyndrome]

I said this earlier about the outpost.
It is within spitting distance of Vulcan... why would it be advanced or have sensors or anything when VULCAN is right there?

Don't you think that it would have been one of Vulcan's oldest and most established colonies from their earliest spacefaring days when they were just setting out, if that were the case? It's not as if early spacefaring civilizations can pick and choose where they want to colonize, or would just pass over a perfectly suitable M-class world.

[General Zod]

I said this earlier about the outpost.
It is within spitting distance of Vulcan... why would it be advanced or have sensors or anything when VULCAN is right there?

Don't you think that it would have been one of Vulcan's oldest and most established colonies from their earliest spacefaring days when they were just setting out, if that were the case? It's not as if early spacefaring civilizations can pick and choose where they want to colonize, or would just pass over a perfectly suitable M-class world.

Delta Vega was a also frozen shithole. If there were a Vulcan colony on the planet as well why couldn't Scotty have just gone there from time to time to get supplies instead of bemoaning how he was subsisting on rations?

[Ryan Thunder]

... It's not the planet being called Delta Vega I have a problem with, it's that Scotty was sitting on Vulcan's doorstep with Spock in his front yard, with the former not noticing the planet blowing up above him and the latter not even trying to use Scotty's radio or shuttle to get back home. The entire DV sequence sorta hinges on the planet being a - remote and b - cut off from the Federation which doesn't really work if it's Vulcan's neighbour.

And Spock marooning Kirk on a planet that was about to be severely fucked by Vulcan disappearing. That tends to mess up orbits and, you know, habitability.

Habitability, sure. But the mass and location of Vulcan never changed, so the orbits should be fine.

I suppose the black hole would eventually evaporate. I'm not sure how long that would take, however.

[Patrick Degan]

On the matter of Starfleet's rather nebulous rank/seniority structure: I've spoken in other threads about the "Age of Sail" metaphor which was the underlying premise for the Enterprise's voyages in the original series. If you take that concept and apply it to nST's version of Starfleet, it becomes a bit more acceptable to swallow the idea of Kirk's swift rise to command given how Age of Sail navies often had midshipmen as young as 15, junior lieutenants as young as 20 or 21, and full post-Captains as young as 26 or 27. Lack of seniority was not a bar to rapid promotion especially in a time when navies were starved for command personnel and were on war-footings. The future Lord Nelson won promotion to the rank of post-Captain in the Royal Navy at age 21 in 1780, and was 47 when he died at Trafalgar in command of the British fleet.

Now, the movie handles Kirk's rise to the eventual captaincy of the Enterprise somewhat clumsily. But the combination of daring action in the field, exhibition of initiative and courage, saving an entire world, and connections (re: Admiral Pike) in combination with a Starfleet which is clearly trawling for officers and fodder in large numbers to man its ships opens up pathways for success which were not available in the TOS reality.

I feel like even if Kirk had been "merely" been granted a commendation and a promotion to a midlevel position, absolutely no one in the audience would have blinked if Kirk starts the sequel as a Captain, considering this movie's basically about his awesome potential. So considering he could plausibly be a captain either way, the route the writers chose seems to have very little payoff for the implausibility they add.

The problem is how the movie depicts the young James Kirk as a fuckup half the time instead of Mr. Midshipman/Lt. Hornblower Kirk, as would have made more sense, which is why the resolution of his winding up captain feels so clumsy. The thing of it is that it was inevitable that Kirk would wind up with the Enterprise by the end of the moviw and there is zero chance there will be a next film depicting his demotion to lieutenant and having to work his way back into the centre seat.

It would have made more sense if the teenage James Kirk, who'd just sent his stepfather's antique Vette off the edge of a cliff, had been visited in the jail by Capt. Pike and started intervening in his life at that stage. Kirk's turnaround would have been more plausible (though I still think he'd cheat at the Kobayashi Maru test), he'd have been a more plausible midshipman/Acn-Lt. with a more mature persona and his rapid rise to command would have felt a bit more natural.

[Crazedwraith]

It occurred to me that Spock running the Kobayashi Maru simulation is pretty neat. In that it explains why he never actually took himself because He wrote the damn thing.

[Androsphinx]

It occurred to me that Spock running the Kobayashi Maru simulation is pretty neat. In that it explains why he never actually took himself because He wrote the damn thing.

I don't think he designed it himself, but rather had overseen (& tweaked) it for the last four years.

[Crazedwraith]

It occurred to me that Spock running the Kobayashi Maru simulation is pretty neat. In that it explains why he never actually took himself because He wrote the damn thing.

I don't think he designed it himself, but rather had overseen (& tweaked) it for the last four years.

Yeah, the line was 'This is Commander Spock who has programmed the scenario for the last four years' Which of course implies someone else programmed it before that. I still thought it was a cool notion. Especially since Bones says that everyone takes the test.

[Androsphinx]

I should just note that I -hated- that scene. Kirk was asking like a child, not taking the thing at all seriously and certainly not looking like someone trying to make a genuine point about a "no win scenario".

And doing something as unsubtle as having the simulation crash and reboot with the Klingon's shields down? I'm not enough of a continuity whore to insist that it has to follow Kirk's description from tWoK:

"I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship... I changed the conditions of the test. I received a commendation for original thinking."

But it should have been something more that Kirk installing "God mode".

[LMSx]

The problem is how the movie depicts the young James Kirk as a fuckup half the time instead of Mr. Midshipman/Lt. Hornblower Kirk, as would have made more sense, which is why the resolution of his winding up captain feels so clumsy. The thing of it is that it was inevitable that Kirk would wind up with the Enterprise by the end of the movie and there is zero chance there will be a next film depicting his demotion to lieutenant and having to work his way back into the centre seat.

I assumed Pike's instant promotion of Kirk in the middle of battle would have been seen as temporary and dictated by extraordinary circumstances, so becoming a lieutenant at the end of the movie wouldn't exactly be a real demotion. And then the next film jumps ahead a few years and he starts the film as captain. But that said, having him start the journey as some mid level guy and finish as a captain does sound like a more complete resolution in terms of both plot and this movie's thematic arc.

[Havok]

I should just note that I -hated- that scene. Kirk was asking like a child, not taking the thing at all seriously and certainly not looking like someone trying to make a genuine point about a "no win scenario".

And doing something as unsubtle as having the simulation crash and reboot with the Klingon's shields down? I'm not enough of a continuity whore to insist that it has to follow Kirk's description from tWoK:

"I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship... I changed the conditions of the test. I received a commendation for original thinking."

But it should have been something more that Kirk installing "God mode".

Keep in mind that that is the THIRD time Kirk took the test. For all we know he was intensely serious about it the first two times.

Also, he may have received a commendation for original thinking HAD the board been allowed to actually deliberate on his case. Also note that Spock would not have had the "your father died in action" argument to make against him. (Not that I'm sure that would have made a difference.)

So the scene falls in line with what Kirk would have done in the TOS timeline. And keep in mind that Kirk in both nST and TOS realizes that he cheated, and he has the same justification as well, "I don't believe in the "No Win Scenario"."

[Havok]

Out of curiosity... Couldn't Kirk be the "Captain", but still be just an Lt.?

[Patrick Degan]

Out of curiosity... Couldn't Kirk be the "Captain", but still be just an Lt.?

Usually, lieutenants who are posted to their own commands get something like a patrol boat or a chaser of some sort. Not anything like a ship of the line.

[Androsphinx]

I should just note that I -hated- that scene. Kirk was asking like a child, not taking the thing at all seriously and certainly not looking like someone trying to make a genuine point about a "no win scenario".

And doing something as unsubtle as having the simulation crash and reboot with the Klingon's shields down? I'm not enough of a continuity whore to insist that it has to follow Kirk's description from tWoK:

"I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship... I changed the conditions of the test. I received a commendation for original thinking."

But it should have been something more that Kirk installing "God mode".

Keep in mind that that is the THIRD time Kirk took the test. For all we know he was intensely serious about it the first two times.

Also, he may have received a commendation for original thinking HAD the board been allowed to actually deliberate on his case. Also note that Spock would not have had the "your father died in action" argument to make against him. (Not that I'm sure that would have made a difference.)

So the scene falls in line with what Kirk would have done in the TOS timeline. And keep in mind that Kirk in both nST and TOS realizes that he cheated, and he has the same justification as well, "I don't believe in the "No Win Scenario"."

If the first half of the movie did anything, it was to establish that TOS Kirk and ST2.0 Kirk are very different people with very different backgrounds, so I had no problem with Kirk 2.0 doing the test totally differently to the way TOS Kirk did it - I thought that was clear. But Kirk 2.0 did beat the test with such smug, arrogant dickishness that he was intensely unlikeable.

[Havok]

Out of curiosity... Couldn't Kirk be the "Captain", but still be just an Lt.?

Usually, lieutenants who are posted to their own commands get something like a patrol boat or a chaser of some sort. Not anything like a ship of the line.

But it is a possibility?

[erik_t]

I should just note that I -hated- that scene. Kirk was asking like a child, not taking the thing at all seriously and certainly not looking like someone trying to make a genuine point about a "no win scenario".

And doing something as unsubtle as having the simulation crash and reboot with the Klingon's shields down? I'm not enough of a continuity whore to insist that it has to follow Kirk's description from tWoK:

"I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship... I changed the conditions of the test. I received a commendation for original thinking."

But it should have been something more that Kirk installing "God mode".

Keep in mind that that is the THIRD time Kirk took the test. For all we know he was intensely serious about it the first two times.

I thought this was blindingly obvious, especially since McCoy pointed out that nobody ever takes the test a second (let alone third) time. He obviously cares about passing this test, since he's devoting time and effort to it. Why would you assume he'd be flippant about it before rewriting the damned thing?

[Havok]

Who the fuck knows? I thought it was painfully obvious that he cared as well. I guess people that obsess over what they hate about the movie or black holes not making sense that they miss dialogue and the point?

[Androsphinx]

The test is a test of character. You really think that dicking around munching on an apple demonstrates the sort of character Starfleet would like?

[JME2]

The test is a test of character. You really think that dicking around munching on an apple demonstrates the sort of character Starfleet would like?

True. Anyway, I saw the apple more as an homage to TWOK and Kirk's confession in the Genesis Cave, but that's valid as well.

[Androsphinx]

That was the only bit I liked about it. But the whole point of Kirk's casualness about it in tWoK is that by the end of the movie he's faced another "no-win situation" - and lost.

[Havok]

The test is a test of character. You really think that dicking around munching on an apple demonstrates the sort of character Starfleet would like?

You really think he did that the first two times? Stop being dense.