The Next Generation: REBOOT!!!

[Big Orange]

Oh noes carpeting is evil! Metal grids are so much more manly and hardcore? What exactly is your problem with carpeted floors, of all things, when 24th century materials technology can presumably make them as durable and fireproof as any other floor material?

I don't think bare metal is the way to go, I imagine something along the lines of polished linoleum tiling in the serious work areas and we had that in actual TNG/VOY shuttle bays, but not in the ready rooms which should remain well appointed comfort zones. And it seems naff to have carpeting in operation rooms, it's gross like a bog matt (unless the medical carpets are swarming with friendly nano machines that sterilize?).

Living quarters, recreation areas, and offices having nice carpets is just fine. I want Air Force One, not the clapped out Nostromo.

While there is no good reason for the bridge to be on the top, since the 'ejectable bridge lifeboat' idea from the TNG tech manual was never taken up, it's highly debatable how much use putting the bridge in the middle of the ship actually is. In the old Trek, Federation ships don't carry heavy armor because it isn't worth the weight penalty - just like real world navaies - and if it was you can bet the Klingons would use it even if the Feddies had bizarre ethical objections. I see no point changing this so you can play space ironclads - that would in fact give a retro SW feel, and again if you're going to do that why are you calling this a 'TNG reboot' again?

I don't have hulking ironclads in mind, I just don't want the main bridge to be exposed right on top (with fucking front windows, even if it looks good).

That would be worthless if it isn't manned in combat/dangerous situations. The whole point of a bridge being a lifeboat is so that the command crew can stay in control of the ship up until the last possible moment, instead of wasting 30 seconds running to the lifepods, sealing them and ejecting them.

Ditch the idea of two bridges (which seemed stupid in TNG anyway) and maybe make a single bridge that can both retract into the hull a few decks but can also eject as a seperate ship? The latter feature was well used in Galaxy Quest.

Earth was nearly destroyed in the first and fourth Trek movies. The Federation lost entire colonies on multiple occasions through the run of TOS and TNG, and entire planets to the Dominion in DS9, but it didn't seem to impact their idealism much. Again idealism is a defining feature of TNG, moreso than any of the other Trek series. If you don't like that, go remake Blakes 7 or Babylon 5 instead.

I don't want routine nihilism like Babylon 5 or even DS9 on occasion, but something along the lines of TOS which was never quite like TNG anyway. I like to strike a comfortable balance with the Federation and Starfleet being mostly reassuring, but there is danger and dark undertones, without getting ridiculous like the darkly comical Farscape or enjoyable dross like World War Z.

I agree that this is worth doing. Plenty of interesting stories virtually for free, although I cringe at how horribly Hollywood writers would mangle the AI details (they usually do about as well at that as they do at astrophysics and naval architecture).

Yeah androids and holograms should be more fleshed out as growing species in their own right, with perhaps the 29th century UFP being more like the Commonwealth from Andromeda and Iain M. Banks' Culture, with AIs superseding organics.

And for some wider Milky Way geopolitical ideas: the Cardassians were pushed from their core systems by the Klingon Defence Force, with the planet Bajor conquered by the Klingons instead, however even in retreat the Cardassians are still a deadly expansionist force: the exiled Cardassians set up a new Union in the absorbed territories of the Breen Confederacy, the Tholian Assembly, and former territories of the now defunct First Federation. The First Federation was by far the most advanced and powerful carbon based dominated faction in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, which was why they attracted the attention of the Borg Collective in 2297, with the First Federation's biological and technological distinctiveness added to the Borg's own (however the Borg stripped the FF territory and did not permanently colonise it).

[Samuel]

And there is protection from time travelers- lots and lots of guns.

Just... no. No amount of 18th century ships of the line could prevent a time-traveling USS Nimitz from bombing London to rubble, and that's not even considering the fact that deliberate time travellers can simply travel back further and wipe out your civilisation when it is still at the mud huts stage.

If that happened than the show wouldn't be occuring... lets just not think about time travel.

Ditch the idea of two bridges (which seemed stupid in TNG anyway) and maybe make a single bridge that can both retract into the hull a few decks but can also eject as a seperate ship? The latter feature was well used in Galaxy Quest.

Actual warships use multiple bridges. Otherwise your enemy blows out one and you are screwed. As for retractable bridges... no. Just no. Lets not make the defining characteristic of the Federation overengineering every single problem.

[Themightytom]

is the ejectable bride really such a bad idea? Just move it to say the back of the cowl above teh engineering section, it ejects between the nacelles (Like the ship is taking a dump) and it would cross the msot physically protected area of the ship,

In a TNG reboot I would like to see a federation with destroyers, and the Enterprise as an explorer. they did this pretty well in babylon 5 i think, where the explorers were huge motherfuckers because they set up equipment for Jump Gates, and they had a small complement of Star Furies, but when their size wasn't a deterrent they would be forced to call on the military.

Have an Enterprise D a big explorer that can set up observation posts, drop space stations, maybe deliver a colony. It would have the mega huge shuttle bay on top to support smaller survey ships. There could be a few military ships in the area but Enterprise supports the smaller survey ships that go in first, to avoid scaring the bejeebus out of potential natives or foreighn powers. the military comes in when its too big a job for Enterprise or diplomacy.

Politically everythings really been covered, although I like the idea of competing with another power for space. The Enterprise could be in undeclared territory with Romulans or Klingons vying for position as well, the clear territories they have in ST always struck me as being odd in a three dimensional galaxy anyway.

Character wise, I am a fan of picard in the early few seasons when he didn't like children. keep him taht way and don't try to jack him up as an action hero, but rather a brooding, educated explorer who has returned to Starfleet after a long absence.

Riker was pretty meh once he got the beard so again, stick to his season 1 and 2 persona, man of action, natural leader, maybe play up his American heritage, to provide a contrast for the audience between how things are and how ST projects them to be.

While being more important on a long distance exploration mission in which multiple cultures are combined on one ship, lose Troi's empathic sense, and give her a job below decks as a clinican rather than the eye candy on the bridge.

Yar wasn't too bad but she WAS whiny, just find a better actor for her, and by all means play up the girl from the shithole planet rescued by the federation. She could be at once a strong advocate for what it represents, but all too aware that life is dirty outside the federation.

Crusher had no real defining feature she could be developed into soemthing better.

Wesley was an unneccesary attempt to provide an entry point for young viewers. Make him an intern who has a knack for something, not better in most science fields than everyone else.

Geordie- look I'm legally blind and I was rolling my eyes through most of his screen time. they let him Drive?? What if his VISOR was knocked out by the usual power dampening device of the week, or the batteries ran out? His console wasn't braille. Either introduce a nonmechanical means of imrpoving his eyes, lose the blindness, or work with it and have him Actually be blind. They itnroduced a completely false advantage rewards scheme with the "I am blind but I can see more of the spectrum than ordinary people, but I get headaches.

Data wasn't so bad, I wouldn't change much about him, because if this is a relaunch universe, we can watch him learn about things all over again. I wouldn't mind having his physical avantages explored a little more. Maybe Worf doesn't NEED to try opening the door only to fail so taht Data can condecendingly come over and open the door with ease? If he has super android speed and processing, stop having him get outfoxed, or caught off guard.

Worf would be heavily dependent on how klingons are portrayed in this series, if they are still Space Vikings. Assuming yar isn't ALSO played by a disinterested actor, Worf will still be second fiddle to her Security Chief position. maybe make him in charge of groundside security projects or a small fighter wing attached to the enterprise for escorts and such. The escort wing could be a less desireable job, for older pilots or disgraced, maybe in protecting his Klingon heritage he has ruffled a few too many feathers for easy promotion. He could even resent not being on the "front lines" of some conflict or other that could be co-occurring and come to realize that his current job is just as risky as a true military position.

Guinan sucked balls, replace her with a male bar tender, maybe a retired vet or something who can offer sage advice.

I suppose for political purposes it wouldn't be too bad if the reason the Romulans and klingons were expanding into the uncalimed region was because they were actually being pushed back by say the Borg. The klingons were gobbling up resources to hold their ground and the Romulans were carefully falling back to let the Klingons exhaust themselves. The borg would NOT be space Zombies, I prefer the original insect model they didn't have the budget for in TNG. More like spaceborn locusts that didn't jsut assimilate sentient planets or worlds but EVERYTHING, asteroids uninhabited planets whatever. Their rate of expansion is slower but they would be impossible to truly stamp out because of sheer numbers.

Enterprise's role in all of this would be minimal at first and after the first season or two have a war erupt between the Romulans and Klingons. Have the klingons occupy Romulus and suddenly theres Romulan fleet elements saturating Enterprise's territory. Starfleet starts deploying more ships to protect assets and the enterpise gets a little crowded out by military ships thrashing around in relatively unexplored space. There can be a slow build as the borg threat is revealed over time and the Romulans driven by desperation reunify with the survivors of Vulcan. the Vulcans can broker a truce with the klingons through the federation and they can all start to address the issue of the borg who are starting to infest territory the Enterprise is exploring.

[tim31]

Guinan sucked balls, replace her with a male bar tender, maybe a retired vet or something who can offer sage advice.

You seem to be misinformed on the laws of narrative with regards to bartenders.

[Themightytom]

Yes, well I was thinking this.



And not having seen the love boat I WAS concerned about this...


(The Chuck norris prototype for neelix)

But what I was REALLY thinking of was this.



but somehow I don't see a boxing ring making it onto the Enterprise,

[CaptainChewbacca]

but somehow I don't see a boxing ring making it onto the Enterprise,

Ah Voyager...

[Sidewinder]

Putting aside your nerd power-fantasy for the moment, no amount of military spending or aggressive imperialism would have saved Vulcan. Nero is FROM THE FUTURE, remember? Unless they have Timecops, there's nothing but odds stopping it from happening again. There is no security from future time-travel, sorry.

Why do you have a vendetta against me? Why do you harass me in each and every thread I post in? Why do you deliberately misinterpret my posts?

I know that nothing can save the planet Vulcan. The surviving members of the Vulcan race will need to be resettled- hence my line about a "refugee crisis." And considering Earth was also attacked, it's reasonable to assume the civilians living on this planet will demand protection to prevent future attacks, as will those on Andoria and other heavily populated planets.

And before you sprout bullshit about "Timecops," remember that Star Trek vessels of Kirk's time can perform orbital bombardment and destroy all life on a planet, they just require significantly more time to do so than Star Wars vessels, although the warp drive's limitations can prevent rescue forces from reaching the planet before significant damage is inflicted.

[Sidewinder]

but somehow I don't see a boxing ring making it onto the Enterprise,

Ah Voyager...

That scene occured during one of Chakotay's "vision quests," so I'm not sure if it counts. However, Worf did teach martial arts to other crewmembers (see Mok'bara), and the Memory Alpha article on kickboxing states martial arts tournaments were held aboard the Enterprise.

[Patrick Degan]

remember that Star Trek vessels of Kirk's time can perform orbital bombardment and destroy all life on a planet, they just require significantly more time to do so than Star Wars vessels, although the warp drive's limitations can prevent rescue forces from reaching the planet before significant damage is inflicted.

We don't know that at all. General Order 24 simply mandates the destruction of said planetary locale but "destruction" may simply be a generalised expression for the devastation a starship would carry out, which would certainly extinguish organised civilisation on the target world and make life very hard for the survivors.

[erik_t]

As usual, it should (but does not) go without saying that a controlled-fusion-or-greater civilization like the Federation can wipe out even a 2009 Earth with contemptible ease. Once "organized civilization" (as Degan calls it) is destroyed or even disrupted for a matter of months, the planet might as well be glassed in any Sol-like solar system.

Several asteroids would require only a negligible (to the Federation) push in order to render Earth a flaming wasteland.

[Pinjar]

Several asteroids would require only a negligible (to the Federation) push in order to render Earth a flaming wasteland.

Off hand there are at least two episodes that would suggest that Star-fleet doesn't have the ready ability to move asteroid sized objects around TOS:The Paradise Syndrome and TNG:Deja Q.

I agree that it should be within their ability. However I would suggest that it would still be a significant undertaking.

[Gandalf]

Off hand there are at least two episodes that would suggest that Star-fleet doesn't have the ready ability to move asteroid sized objects around TOS:The Paradise Syndrome and TNG:Deja Q.

I agree that it should be within their ability. However I would suggest that it would still be a significant undertaking.

The asteroid from The Paradise Syndrome was the size of Earth's moon, and in Deja Q, they were also dealing with a moon.

[Ghost Rider]

Why do you have a vendetta against me? Why do you harass me in each and every thread I post in? Why do you deliberately misinterpret my posts?

Okay, dipshit. The last time you spewed this, you did to me. I didn't ban your ass because you were fucking amusing over your rant. But this time, I will put the mod hat on.

Demonstrate this or you go the way of the dodo, fucker.

[Patroklos]

Is there any reason we are assuming 47 lost ships is a particularly large portion of the Klingon fleet?

[CDiehl]

Is there any reason we are assuming 47 lost ships is a particularly large portion of the Klingon fleet?

It may not be a large physical loss, but the sudden loss of 47 starships to a vastly superior enemy could be a massive psychological blow to the Klingons. After all, the US lost far less than 47 vessels at Pearl Harbor, at the hands of a fleet with roughly the same tech as the US Navy, and it was considered a national tragedy.

[Big Orange]

Is there any reason we are assuming 47 lost ships is a particularly large portion of the Klingon fleet?

It may not be a large physical loss, but the sudden loss of 47 starships to a vastly superior enemy could be a massive psychological blow to the Klingons. After all, the US lost far less than 47 vessels at Pearl Harbor, at the hands of a fleet with roughly the same tech as the US Navy, and it was considered a national tragedy.

And there could've very easily been important and valuable people onboard those 47 lost vessels, people that could not be replaced like the Emperor's son who is aire to the throne and some of the best navy/army tacticians, missing people that negatively affects the military effectivenesss and political stability of the Klingon Empire.

[speaker-to-trolls]

^ There's nothing to indicate that, and the chances of the heir to the throne or the best military minds of the Empire just happening to be on one of the ships in the Narada's way seem fairly remote. And if the attack can be compared to Pearl Harbour, as CDiehl suggested, then it's more likely to make the Klingons more nationalistic and aggressive, rather than diminish their influence. Space Vikings or Space Soviets, the Klingons don't seem like the kind of people to respond to a sneak attack by becoming more mild mannered.

[Knife]

^ There's nothing to indicate that, and the chances of the heir to the throne or the best military minds of the Empire just happening to be on one of the ships in the Narada's way seem fairly remote. And if the attack can be compared to Pearl Harbour, as CDiehl suggested, then it's more likely to make the Klingons more nationalistic and aggressive, rather than diminish their influence. Space Vikings or Space Soviets, the Klingons don't seem like the kind of people to respond to a sneak attack by becoming more mild mannered.

who cares if it is 'politically' importent people. You lost 47 Captains of various experience, and 47 XO's with various experience and between 50 and 100 second and third officers with various experience along with god knows how many senior enlisted men (chiefs?). Crank out 47 new ships and you have people whom must be promoted before they are ready to man those billets. Next time an Admiral position open, you have 47 less experienced Captains to choose from to have a Star lead a squadron or fleet or floatilla or whatever.

On top of that, 47 ships out of what? 300? 1000? doesn't sound too bad except in a pitched battle like implied, you lost 47 combatents out of how many combatents in a 300 ship navy, 1000 ship navy. Driving a troopship or a destroyer ferry or a fuel ship isn't the same as driving a destroyer or cruiser or battleship. You lost 47 combat commanders and 47 combat XO's and all the senior personnel of those ships that others must now be promoted to fill those billets in new ships.

All at once, not two or three at a time, not half a dozen here and there, but all at once.

[Themightytom]

Oh God its like pearl harbor! You can never recover from one of those!!!

[Patrick Degan]

Is there any reason we are assuming 47 lost ships is a particularly large portion of the Klingon fleet?

It may not be a large physical loss, but the sudden loss of 47 starships to a vastly superior enemy could be a massive psychological blow to the Klingons. After all, the US lost far less than 47 vessels at Pearl Harbor, at the hands of a fleet with roughly the same tech as the US Navy, and it was considered a national tragedy.

Pearl Harbour may have been considered a national tragedy at the time, but it did not paralyse the U.S. response to the Japanese nor demoralise the entire U.S. Navy. Its only effects were material and temporary. Within six months with a reduced fleet, we won at Midway. Within the year, we effectively won Guadalcanal.

Similarly, it is very doubtful that the Klingons would be paralysed even by the complete loss of 47 starships at Rura Penthe. The only effect was that it allowed Nero and crew to escape with the Narada into Federation space. To take another example, the loss of 39 ships at Wolf 359 did not paralyse the Federation; only made its military force distribution a bit tight for a year or two.

[Samuel]

And the Klingon warbirds are smaller than the ships the Federation builds (even more so in this timeline unless they have been bulked up to match).

Does anyone know the comparitive volume? The Feds lost at least 6 ships in a matter of moments, but they didn't seem devestated by it.

[Themightytom]

And the Klingon warbirds are smaller than the ships the Federation builds (even more so in this timeline unless they have been bulked up to match).

Does anyone know the comparitive volume? The Feds lost at least 6 ships in a matter of moments, but they didn't seem devastated by it.

I don't think we even know what KIND of klingon ships, did they specify war birds? Does that mean bird of prey? We saw the battlecruisers on screen during the KM simulation but no scale, unless someone wants to try scaling based on a torpedo O.o

Also the term warbirds refers to the Romulan ships to differentiate them from klingon birds of prey right? I thought it went something like

Klingon warships introduced
Romulan birds of prey introduced
Rimulan battlecruisers based of of klingon design introduced
ST3 "Klingon" BOP was supposed to be a stolen romulan design but they dropped taht from the script, yet continued to call it a bird of prey so

STTNG: Romulans have warbirds now, which are humongous and certainly not birds of prey.
The ship loss wouldn't ahve crippled them beyond a year or two, but what it COUDL have done was shifted politics. There was an episode of Enterprise which protrayed a character shift in progress among the klingons. The old "Honor bound" traditionalists were losing ground to progressive bloodthirsty klingons, like we saw in Kirk's era, They stuck around until the house of Duras fell and the more traditionalists reasserted thesmelves, hence the space vikings of DS9.

In a reboot, the progressive Klingons could have been the officers and commanders of premier ships lost at Rura penthe so the space vikings could reassert themselves earlier in this timeline.

[Simon_Jester]

Re: the Klingon question:
I think it should have some effect. My preference is to keep the Klingons as "space Soviets;" maybe several of the leading proponents of the "space Viking" doctrine were killed in battle, or maybe the reason they lost 47 ships was because the bloodthirsty idiot in charge of the fleet kept throwing in wave after wave of ships long after he should have cut his losses and gone home. Which would have a traumatic effect on their national doctrine.

If so, then we have some interesting options. The oppressive political culture of the Klingon Empire creates defectors. Some of them may be warriors of the "space Viking" school; like the historical Vikings they will become nonstate actors who wander around, enlisting with other nations or with renegades, terrorizing poorly defended settlements, and otherwise being a major nuisance to the civilized galaxy. The Klingon government will of course deny responsibility for these renegades, while using them as a convenient cover for foreign operations by their KGB-equivalent.

Worf can be portrayed as one of these warrior-defectors. Or he can have started as a "new Soviet man" who was taught to despise the old honor-before-reason code of the Klingon race, but who now has nothing else to fall back on now that he's disillusioned with the current government.
_____

On a side note, I like the idea of feeding the First Federation to the Borg. It serves two good purposes:
1)Nobody did much with the FF in the main timeline, which was a major plot hole (assuming they weren't some extragalactic group). Having the Borg destroy them would explain what the heck happened to them, and why (for instance) no one thought of asking them for help against the Cardassians, the Dominion, or the Borg.
2)It establishes the Borg as a very serious threat, because they stomped all over someone who in turn could have stomped all over the Federation.

[Samuel]

2)It establishes the Borg as a very serious threat, because they stomped all over someone who in turn could have stomped all over the Federation.

Great. Now how do we prevent the Federation from getting curbstomped or having its territory occupied without doing a cop-out like SG-1?

[Starglider]

Great. Now how do we prevent the Federation from getting curbstomped or having its territory occupied without doing a cop-out like SG-1?

Technological solutions aren't automatically cop-outs, it depends on the writing. SG-1 finding convenient Ancient plot devices in the nick of time was pushing suspension of disbelief a bit. The Federation crash-deploying say a network of jammers that disrupt Borg hive mind transmissions wouldn't necessarily be, if you had an arc of it being developed over a season or two; capturing borg from scout ships (or stealing one from Romulan custody), ethical dilemma over dissecting them, engineers dying in tests due to compromising safety in the rush, prototype taken into enemy territory by the Enterprise and of course it doesn't work properly until the crew makes final adjustments, political dilemma of whether to share the tech with enemies, then a Borg fast attack force goes for the first wide-area jammer station right before it goes online etc. That would work, then you've got the tense situation of the Borg slowly laying siege to the Federation to prevent them extending jamming coverage, prime directive dilemmas about whether to try and evac primitive species on the border to save them from assimilation, and the race to develop a genuine way to fight them before the Borg develop a counter to the jamming.