New Treks Timeline, what can't change?

[Lost Soal]

Its piss easy to include events from the original timeline and do original stories.
Some other ship was in the area, it happened off screen.

This way they can maintain the events which should still take place but deal with them in a single line of dialogue and concentrate on creating new stories for Kirk and co.

[RedImperator]

Or they can just, you know, not fucking worry about the original timeline unless they feel like raiding it for stories. Who honestly gives a shit what hardcore Trekkies think about it? I'll tell you who doesn't: the people who dropped $365 million on tickets to see the new movie.

[Pulp Hero]

It would be nice in the next movie if Kirk asked what happened when he was gone and someone told him something like, "Oh yeah this V'ger thing showed up, but the guys on the U.S.S. Hurricane took care of. Those are some really good guys. Well, see you later. "

Because in the new continuality maybe people on the other spaceships will have adventures too. And piss of the anal retentive fanbase.

[AirshipFanboy]

ENT showed us several classes of 600-meter Vulcan cruisers. Unless the original-timeline TOS Federation failed to absorb Vulcan technology, they should be able to build Kelvin-sized ships, although maybe not in a saucer-and-nacelle configuration.

[Darth Wong]

The whole concept of this thread is silly. As far as the new series is concerned, the old timeline is irrelevant except as a source of inspiration for story ideas. The question of what they can "change" assumes that they're still tied to it in some substantial way, and they're not. To "change" something is to imply that it already exists, and as far as the new series is concerned, it doesn't.

[Patroklos]

Notice one side has what you consider not 'compelling' evidence, whereas the other side has FUCKING ZERO evidence. Hmmm. Hmmm. What argument to go with?

You have exaclty the same amount of evidence. Zero.

The simple fact is the point of divergence is the Narrada/Kelvin incident and there is no reason for the Kelvin to be that big. But it is. Is it because of a timeline change? A black whole whatever? God? No, it is because the writers want it to and they have no intention or motivation to provide anything whatsoever to justify themselves. The writers suck, enough said. We can break our backs tyring to stuff a writer's' intentions into a box of reason, but we should not labor under the assumption that it is possible. Hell, there are plenty of instances of SciFi stating unreconcilable direct contradictions inside the same reboot/episode/movie. It happens, move on.

If you really want to talk about there not being a WWIII, explain how the same exact same sperm finds the exact same egg several generations over to produce James T. Kirk (which coincidently has the same name) despite all those epic changes in timeline. The existance of all the biological characters at all is far more proof of a previously unchanged timeline than some dimension discrepencies on starships.

[Captain Seafort]

The simple fact is the point of divergence is the Narrada/Kelvin incident

That incident is a point of divergence - one of hundreds, or even thousands. For all we know in neoTrek humans might have originated in Siberia instead of Africa.

If you really want to talk about there not being a WWIII, explain how the same exact same sperm finds the exact same egg several generations over to produce James T. Kirk (which coincidently has the same name) despite all those epic changes in timeline. The existance of all the biological characters at all is far more proof of a previously unchanged timeline than some dimension discrepencies on starships.

It's unlikely, but possible, if only through sheer coincidence. Starships the size of a GCS a century early, on the other hand, do not suddenly magic themselves into existence through coincidence - there has to be a progression and development.

[Patroklos]

Seriously, you think the size discrepency of a starship outways the sheer impossibility of those same characters existing when you remove something like WWIII from the story line?!?!?

And Like I said, we are not just talking about Kirks parents, but multiple generations of human couples (his grand parents, great grandparents, how long ago was WWIII?) having sex at the same time, the exact same position, finding and screwing the same people, etc. etc. And this has to remain undisturbed for EVERY reoccuring character. It is an impossibility (this goes for the mirror universes as well). In order for any of that to have taken place no major change can be made to the timeline pre Narada, and certainly not to an event such as WWIII that would be pivotal to the generational timeline of every main character (Spock to a lesser extent, but still enough to make his existance an impossibility).

[Darth Wong]

If you really want to talk about there not being a WWIII, explain how the same exact same sperm finds the exact same egg several generations over to produce James T. Kirk (which coincidently has the same name) despite all those epic changes in timeline. The existance of all the biological characters at all is far more proof of a previously unchanged timeline than some dimension discrepencies on starships.

It's unlikely, but possible, if only through sheer coincidence.

That sort of thing is "possible" only in the same sense that it is possible for you to abruptly teleport to Saturn because of quantum mechanics. The line between "improbable" and "impossible" becomes blurred at very large improbabilities.

[Masami von Weizegger]

If you really want to talk about there not being a WWIII, explain how the same exact same sperm finds the exact same egg several generations over to produce James T. Kirk (which coincidently has the same name) despite all those epic changes in timeline. The existance of all the biological characters at all is far more proof of a previously unchanged timeline than some dimension discrepencies on starships.

It's unlikely, but possible, if only through sheer coincidence.

That sort of thing is "possible" only in the same sense that it is possible for you to abruptly teleport to Saturn because of quantum mechanics. The line between "improbable" and "impossible" becomes blurred at very large improbabilities.

Right, but remember this is the (not quite) same franchise that had a Mirror Universe populated by evil TOS regulars, which was then completely destabilised due to interference from another reality and yet somehow the entire DS9 crew managed to be conceived and make their way to the space station for all sorts of hijinks. Even DS9's Vegas lounge singer hologram ended up having a Mirror Universe counterpart. While this is not a cop out for the theory described above, it does demonstrate the immense capacity of self-delusion that writers in this franchise can have. (After all, this Star Trek movie has now decided that the Kirk/Spock dynamic is so awesome, vital and fated to be that Original Spock knows he must hook up his alternate reality pals or the universe is doomed.) So I wouldn't be shocked if they did shrug their their shoulders and exclaim "What are the odds!?"

If we want to pretend that this new Star Trek has any relation to the old (and I see there's already been plentiful discussion why that isn't the case, from both an in-universe and business perspective) then the main TOS plots that would be forced to occur are; the whale probe from The Voyage Home, the planet eater that looked like a dog turd and V'Ger. As none of these concepts are so intrinsically awesome that they must be worked into this new mythos (Yeah, I liked The Voyage Home, but it sure as hell wasn't because there was a whale probe in it), I doubt they'll be touched upon except in the bitterest hacks very much non-canon New Star Trek pocket book.

Personally, I hope they reference as little of the original series as possible. Hell, I'm still mentally snipping all that Original Spock bullshit out of this movie. I didn't see Chris O'Donnell turn up in Batman Begins saving Christian Bale's ass and hooking him up with some new Robin. If you're going to reboot, just fucking do it.

[Patroklos]

Thats the problem though, it isn't a reboot in the traditional sense like the nBSG. They made the original universe an integral part of this new one, in fact this new one only exists because of the original one in universe.

They should have just made some new Treck movies inside the timeline of TOS with missions and events in between the original episodes. It would not have taken away from being reintroduced to this new cast in the slightest and would have had the same cannon arguements we are now but without all the retarded time traval/altered timeline BS.

[CDiehl]

Thats the problem though, it isn't a reboot in the traditional sense like the nBSG.

Why is that a bad thing? If they did the reboot like BSG did, people would accuse them of ripping off BSG, wouldn't they?

They made the original universe an integral part of this new one, in fact this new one only exists because of the original one in universe.

Actually, this universe was already different from the one from the original series. For example, the Kelvin, so often complained about for being too big for a ship of that time, could easily be the product of a different Starfleet, with a similar but different history. Also, the main characters of the series in this universe meet in a different manner than we can assume they did in the original series. The reason for the inclusion of Spock and Nero, I think, was for the benefit of a small but vocal element of Trek fans who need to have it spelled out in bright letters that this is not going to be beholden to the original Star Trek.

They should have just made some new Treck movies inside the timeline of TOS with missions and events in between the original episodes.

With the exception of "inside the timeline of TOS", I assume that's the plan. However, I am quite happy this series of movies will not be connected to the original continuity. After all these years, the original series canon has become more of a stifling template than the inspiration for creativity that it could have been. Cutting it all loose and starting fresh was basically the only way to get things moving again.

[Patroklos]

Why is that a bad thing? If they did the reboot like BSG did, people would accuse them of ripping off BSG, wouldn't they?

Rebooting like nBSG doesn't mean it is ripping off nBSG. Batman (several times), Superman, The Hulk, Transformers, etc. all rebooted the same way nBSG did. You can have analogous characters, you can even repeat the same events, but the difference is you can't actually reference the original timeline inside the new one if you want to maintain a true reboot free of everything in the old one.

The new Star Trek didn't just reference directly the old timeline, They actually included characters from it. Because of this they can never be free of the old franchise the way nBSG was.

Actually, this universe was already different from the one from the original series. For example, the Kelvin, so often complained about for being too big for a ship of that time, could easily be the product of a different Starfleet, with a similar but different history. Also, the main characters of the series in this universe meet in a different manner than we can assume they did in the original series. The reason for the inclusion of Spock and Nero, I think, was for the benefit of a small but vocal element of Trek fans who need to have it spelled out in bright letters that this is not going to be beholden to the original Star Trek.

Thats irrelevant. The coincidence of them meeting is nothing compared to their actual existance. The same goes for any mundane technical detail as regards technology. Arguing that the Kelvin being bigger is about as effective as saying because the technology in TPM is obviously more advanced than in ANH they can't be the same universe. It is nothing more than the writers utilizing new special effects, reading anything more into it from that is futile. Especially since no rationalization of that sort can ever overcome the existance of the exact same biological characters.

They simply screwed up their reboot with their absolutely retarded plot choices.

With the exception of "inside the timeline of TOS", I assume that's the plan. However, I am quite happy this series of movies will not be connected to the original continuity. After all these years, the original series canon has become more of a stifling template than the inspiration for creativity that it could have been. Cutting it all loose and starting fresh was basically the only way to get things moving again.

It would have been a trivial thing to write in between the episodes within the original continuity. TOS was the least fleshed out of the timeframes on screen, there were literally years before and after TOS seasons to work with, not to mention that given the crudness of the actually shown TOS timeframe you could pretty much write on top of them with no trouble.

[RedImperator]

The new Star Trek didn't just reference directly the old timeline, They actually included characters from it. Because of this they can never be free of the old franchise the way nBSG was.

Or...wait for it...they included Spock because they thought it would be awesome to have Leonard Nimoy in their movie (they were correct), and nobody but pedantic nerds gives a flying fuck if or how the new movie ties in to the old timeline. At any rate, the presence of Leonard Nimoy's Spock doesn't prove a fucking thing. He could just as well be a future Spock from a reboot timeline that never had any connection to the original continuity.

[Patroklos]

Or...wait for it...they included Spock because they thought it would be awesome to have Leonard Nimoy in their movie (they were correct), and nobody but pedantic nerds gives a flying fuck if or how the new movie ties in to the old timeline.

Which is totally fine, we discussed the "writers suck" hand waving technique before. However, the discussion has moved on to people attempting to prove that they are completely different timelines due to the appearance of the Kelvin, or in other words peole not hand waving. In that context the discrepency between starship characteristics is nothing in comparison to the existance of the exact same biological characters.

At any rate, the presence of Leonard Nimoy's Spock doesn't prove a fucking thing. He could just as well be a future Spock from a reboot timeline that never had any connection to the original continuity.

Then his inclusion provides none of the "awesome" from your statement. He is just some random dude then.

[Lonestar]

I'm actually inclined to follow the "Spock is from an alternate timeline" theory.

I mean, the Jellyfish did not bear much resemblance to Vulcan vessels from the TNG era. The propulsion system seemed to be radically different, the colors were off, the hull shape was off...


Even the most advanced Federation "line ship" of that era keeps to the saucer-nacelle plan.

[RedImperator]

At any rate, the presence of Leonard Nimoy's Spock doesn't prove a fucking thing. He could just as well be a future Spock from a reboot timeline that never had any connection to the original continuity.

Then his inclusion provides none of the "awesome" from your statement. He is just some random dude then.

Incorrect. Leonard Nimoy is awesome in and of himself. He could be playing a street-sweeper and it would still make the movie better.

[Patroklos]

Incorrect. Leonard Nimoy is awesome in and of himself. He could be playing a street-sweeper and it would still make the movie better.

Everyone knows who spock is, and they would recognize him as such. A non Trek geek wasn't recognizing Leonard Nemoy, they were recognizing Spock.

[Patroklos]

I'm actually inclined to follow the "Spock is from an alternate timeline" theory.

I mean, the Jellyfish did not bear much resemblance to Vulcan vessels from the TNG era. The propulsion system seemed to be radically different, the colors were off, the hull shape was off...


Even the most advanced Federation "line ship" of that era keeps to the saucer-nacelle plan.

When grasping for straws rationalize write retardation you have to ask yourself which is more likely; We just saw yet another alternat universe hitherto never heard of before, or Spock got got a rental from Enterprise

I suspect we can lay the blame to the same reason the Kelvin is the way it is; the writers thought it would be UBER COOL!!! I mean, dude, it has a spinning engine thingymadohicky!!!!

[Patroklos]

I'm actually inclined to follow the "Spock is from an alternate timeline" theory.

I mean, the Jellyfish did not bear much resemblance to Vulcan vessels from the TNG era. The propulsion system seemed to be radically different, the colors were off, the hull shape was off...


Even the most advanced Federation "line ship" of that era keeps to the saucer-nacelle plan.

When grasping for straws to rationalize writer retardation you have to ask yourself which is more likely; We just saw yet another alternat universe hitherto never heard of before, or Spock got got a rental from Enterprise

I suspect we can lay the blame to the same reason the Kelvin is the way it is; the writers thought it would be UBER COOL!!! I mean, dude, it has a spinning engine thingymadohicky!!!!

[Lonestar]

When grasping for straws rationalize write retardation you have to ask yourself which is more likely; We just saw yet another alternat universe hitherto never heard of before, or Spock got got a rental from Enterprise

I suspect we can lay the blame to the same reason the Kelvin is the way it is; the writers thought it would be UBER COOL!!! I mean, dude, it has a spinning engine thingymadohicky!!!!

(1)There are a hell of a lot of alternate universes in Trek.
(2)It's explicitly stated that the ship was built by the Vulcan Science Council. Again, the ship's design does not reflect Vulcan/Federation ship designs of the TNG era. At all.

Which tells me, yes, it's very likely that Spock did not come from the Trek-Primeverse.

[bobnik]

I mean, dude, it has a spinning engine thingymadohicky!!!!

Slight off-topic; I was reading the novel, and apparently the spinny-bit is a drive mod that helps with the red matter containment.

Back on topic, one of the things that's going to affect the future of the reboot is that future Spock, between probably marrying some hot young pointy-eared chick and helping repopulate the Vulcan race, is probably getting the mother-of-all debriefs regarding what is to come. He's already messed with this timeline, I doubt he'd balk at telling Starfleet to have a hulk ready to drop in the Doomsday machine, or get the xeno-linguists onto whale song, or telling Carol Marcus to STFU when she comes looking for funding. Oh, and no beaming during ion-storms!

[Lonestar]

Slight off-topic; I was reading the novel, and apparently the spinny-bit is a drive mod that helps with the red matter containment.

Annnnnnd...so why didn't the containment of the red matter fall apart when the Jellyfish sat docked inside the Romulan merchant cruiser for most of the movie?

Like I said, just from the serious design changes of the Jellyfish it indicates it is not from the TNGverse. Or even, say, 30 years after the TNGverse, because we know from the finale of Voyager that Starfleet design philosophy remained essentially unchanged.

[bobnik]

Annnnnnd...so why didn't the containment of the red matter fall apart when the Jellyfish sat docked inside the Romulan merchant cruiser for most of the movie?

I'll find the exact quote tonight, but it seemed from context that it shielded the red matter from the effects of the drive, and so would not be necessary when the drive was not operating.