Star Trek, five months later

[Bounty]

This is the sort of derail I meant when I talked about stuff that would be better off in its own thread.

[Simon_Jester]

Sorry. Reflex.

Anyway, I didn't feel that the Narada's firepower broke suspension of disbelief, not least because I didn't find out it was supposedly a "mining ship" until after the first time I saw the movie. It did look kind of weird and un-Trekkie (where are the warp nacelles !?), but that was as much a good thing as a bad thing, because it contributed to the "where the hell did these guys come from?" aspect.

At the time I saw it, I would probably have given it an eight. Since then, remembering what a dick Kirk was has lowered the movie slightly, because Kirk's behavior was downright unmilitary. It may be a measure of the power of tropes that I didn't notice it on the first viewing, or it may just be that I have lower standard when the movie is right in front of me than when I'm thinking about it at leisure.

[Jarek Densaku]

Nothing more than a 1.........

I've never felt so insulted by the very existence of a movie and i've saw a bunch of crappy flicks in my life.

Here's a cute poem about it....

[Rochey]

I'll give it a 7. A fun action movie that I feel is a good way to kill a couple of hours. It's hardly a masterpiece of filmaking, of course, but I found it adequately entertaining.

[Gasphemer]

Nothing more than a 1.........

I've never felt so insulted by the very existence of a movie and i've saw a bunch of crappy flicks in my life.

Here's a cute poem about it....

Admittedly, finding a ham as large as Shatner is difficult as hell. Sure, this movie had its fun parts, but it's stupid as fuck.

You weren't by any chance the fellow who wrote this review on imdb.com?

Darth Vader, err, Darth Maul - umm, I mean Nero - has this huge, gigantic awesome Death Star - err, I mean Mining Ship, that can destroy entire planets. So Nero blows up Alderaan - umm, I mean Vulcan, killing Princess Leia's father - I mean, Spock's mother. And then the Death Star homes in on the Rebel Base - Umm, I mean the mining ship homes in on Starfleet headquarters, and only Luke Skywalker can stop it by ignoring orders and turning off his targeting computer and trusting the Force - no, I mean only Jim Kirk can stop it by ignoring Starfleet's orders and trusting his instincts. It's a good thing Old Ben Kenobi was there to give Kirk that fatherly advice earlier - no, wait, that was Captain Pike.

And then they had a big old celebration, and Luke and Han got medals - err, I mean, Jim Kirk got a medal and was made captain.

This movie was terrible.

The sad thing, I was actually loving it, totally suckered in, emotionally caught up in the film, and then it just got really stupid.

The movie totally lost me when Spock threw Jim Kirk off of his ship and made him go down to the Ice Planet of Hoth. Why would Spock do that? Why would ANY Starfleet officer abandon one of their own on a frozen planet full of deadly Wampas during the middle of an interstellar war - err, interstellar terrorist event?

Spock should have been court-martialed for that. No commanding officer in any military organization would ever do that, anywhere, any time, for any reason.

Luckily, the evil tattoo-faced bad guy, Darth Maul - umm, Nero, did THE EXACT SAME THING to his sworn enemy, Old Spock, who showed up just in time to save Kirk, which was really lucky, because Kirk didn't have his lightsaber handy to cut off the snow-monster's arm.

So Spock and Nero are morally equivalent with each other, both banishing their enemies to a frozen wasteland. How symmetrical.

Thankfully, this happens to be the exact same planet that Montegomery "Scotty" Scot was also unfairly banished to! What a lucky coincidence!

Old Spock knew Kirk and Scotty in the future! And in the future, Scotty figured out a way to magically beam onto a ship moving faster than the speed of light half a galaxy away! And Old Spock remembers how he did it! Yay! Magic!

Now, smart people would have used this trick to beam the bad guys off of their own ship, and into the vacuum of space, where they would have died, and Earth would have been saved.

This movie is not about smart people.

The villain is a coal miner from the future. He hates Spock because Spock tried to save his homeworld from destruction. So it's Spock's fault? Why? Because Spock got there too late - did Spock stop off for some fast food or something? Why is it Spock's fault?

I mean, if I my planet were destroyed, and I got sucked a hundred years into the past, I would warn my planet, so they could start evacuating. I would use my enormous mining ship to start ferrying off the billions of refugees to a nice safe planet, not go around the galaxy destroying all of the most habitable worlds.

It's not just Nero who is mentally challenged, though. Old Spock needs only a few drops of "Red Matter" to turn a supernova into a black hole - but he's got like fifty gallons of it on board his ship. Why? Is that smart? Is that safe? What if a bunch of terrorists were able to get hold of all that Red Matter by capturing your puny little vessel? Duh! I think Old Spock is a bit senile.

[Ryushikaze]

I'll say six. Good popcorn flick, has some major gaps in rationale, and some massive fridge logic moments that irk me after I watched it, but hardly pure shit. With some minor tweaks (seriously, have the meeting with Old Spock take place on the Naraada after Kirk rides the mining rig up, after making sure Sulu had gotten out safely, and if you must include the ice planet, have that be where Kirk and Oldspock land after ejecting an escape pod from the Naraada.

Changes like that, where Kirk actions are reasonably heroic instead of lucky by leaps, bounds, and fiat.

I would have also changed the KM scene, even though TWOK already told us he cheated, though not how. I'd probably have cut away from the scene after the appearance of the three ships and his order to not respond, then skipping right to his disciplinary hearing. Other scenes, like ones that got excised from the movie but were included in the novel that helped it make sense would have bumped the score, but as is, the movie's a flawed but fun popcorn ride.

[Simon_Jester]

I'll say six. Good popcorn flick, has some major gaps in rationale, and some massive fridge logic moments that irk me after I watched it, but hardly pure shit. With some minor tweaks (seriously, have the meeting with Old Spock take place on the Naraada after Kirk rides the mining rig up, after making sure Sulu had gotten out safely, and if you must include the ice planet, have that be where Kirk and Oldspock land after ejecting an escape pod from the Naraada.

Ooh. That is good.

I would have also changed the KM scene, even though TWOK already told us he cheated, though not how. I'd probably have cut away from the scene after the appearance of the three ships and his order to not respond, then skipping right to his disciplinary hearing. Other scenes, like ones that got excised from the movie but were included in the novel that helped it make sense would have bumped the score, but as is, the movie's a flawed but fun popcorn ride.

What bothered me was that the way he went into, through, and out of the exercise indicated his contempt for the exercise and for his instructors. That is not a tolerable trait in an extremely junior officer; too much "bad boy" to stay within the bounds of "brash young officer." A prima donna has to have at least some ability to shut up and take it on the chin, after all.

Kirk was effectively declaring war on his own chain of command by acting the way he did, and he really should have gotten his ass handed to him at some point. I think it would have made a far better movie with just that one change: at some point have someone senior and obviously competent tear Kirk a new one, and show him cooling down and being less of an ass afterwards. Have him get some real character development.

[jegs2]

Had a hard time with the whole Cadet Kirk, straight to starship captain thing. The giant hanging chain-beam thing from the Romulan ship-o-doom seemed a bit hokey too (just shoot the thing already). Other than that, really enjoyed the movie - straight butt-kicking from start to finish, instead of Picard-style pontification and preaching.

[UCBooties]

I gave it a seven because I am very much of two minds when it comes to the movie. I enjoy watching it a great deal. When seeing it in theater I had a huge grin plastered over my face. It was just so dman fun.

On the other hand there are a lot of irritating plot elements. It just really botehrs me that the plot relies so much on things happening exactly as they occured, even vry random things. I prefer to have the feeling that the characters have at least a small amount of impact on the proceedings.

So very fun to watch, not as much fun to think about after.

7

[Alyeska]

I gave it a seven. It was better then decent, but it wasn't great. Probably could have given it an 8 anyway. It had its flaws, but it was quite fun to watch.

[Jon]

Not to use it as an excuse, but JJ said there was quite a bit of dialogue that made it in which he would have liked to have changed but literally couldnt due to the ongoing writer's strike during filming, do you reckon that could have anything to do with some of the screamers getting in like 'galaxy destroying supernovas'. It doesn't excuse some of the overarching plot sillyness but eh

[Darth Wong]

Not to use it as an excuse, but JJ said there was quite a bit of dialogue that made it in which he would have liked to have changed but literally couldnt due to the ongoing writer's strike during filming, do you reckon that could have anything to do with some of the screamers getting in like 'galaxy destroying supernovas'. It doesn't excuse some of the overarching plot sillyness but eh

Uhh, is there seriously a rule that you can't change a word of dialogue without professional writers? Why couldn't he and the other production staff just sit down and say "Hey, this sounds really dumb, let's rework it a bit?"

What JJ is saying here kind of reminds me of Paul Anderson pretending that AVP would have made a lot more sense if he had more time. I never bought that either; it sounded like a guy who was too dumb to recognize certain problems and then pretended later that somebody else just got in his way.

[Stofsk]

Everything I've heard about the American film industry is that it's incredibly stratified. It wouldn't surprise me that the writers strike had an effect on the film's production. There might literally be a rule that says "No-one other than the credited writer/s can alter the script".

[Bounty]

Uhh, is there seriously a rule that you can't change a word of dialogue without professional writers? Why couldn't he and the other production staff just sit down and say "Hey, this sounds really dumb, let's rework it a bit?"

From articles at the time, it seems like the only changes they were allowed to do was either use material from previous drafts or retain ad-libs. No new material could be written in script form:

During a strike neither the writers, nor JJ Abrams (who is a guild member) can add anything to the script, however a producer can choose to use portions of any previous drafts of the script. In addition, spontaneous or ad libbed dialog from the actors is allowed.

Technically I don't think this could have stopped the writers from taking an actor aside and making a few... "suggestions", so I don't know how far the excuse would go. The script was finished and polished before the strike started, with advance warning as Star Trek was to be one of the "tide us over" scripts that could be filmed despite the strike.

So yeah, maybe without the strike some rough edges could have been taken out, but I really doubt the changes would have been that substantial. It'll be interesting to see if the DVD mentions any of the changes he would have made.

[Tsyroc]

Had a hard time with the whole Cadet Kirk, straight to starship captain thing.

I had/have a problem with that part too.

It's not just that he ends up in charge of a starship and is called captain because he's the CO. He is actually promoted directly from cadet to the rank of captain. WTF? Is the Federation in some sort of war like the Federation in Starship Troopers where pretty young people can get promoted like crazy, mostly because of attrition in the ranks above them?

[Gramzamber]

I'd give it a 5. It's a fun movie, well directed and acted. But it's bogged down by a lot of nonsense - even for Trek.
The red matter/time hole/supernova thing is just dumb, and the whole time travel angle just seems to bog down what should be a fresh start for Trek with uneeded baggage. I mean, the very point of a reboot is to release that baggage.

Aside from that, there are a lot of other things I dislike. Nero is a silly, crybaby villian throwing a tantrum. I half expected him to start jumping up and down and cry during his "Fire everything!" scene.
Kirk is obnoxious, Uhura and Spock's romance is tacked on and pointless, the entire attack on Vulcan was non-sensical (come on, nobody on Vulcan has a ship they can warp away in and tell Earth there's a giant doom ship attacking them?) and Kirk's solution for the Kobayashi Maru scenario in the movie was idiotic. Would you really get a commendation for original thinking for that?
It's blatant godmoding if I ever saw it. It's laughable that they even needed Spock to accuse him of cheating, at the very least the results should've been dismissed due to an obvious malfunction and Kirk forced to redo it.

[Simon_Jester]

The sanest way I can think of to explain the 'Kirk promoted to captain' thing, and I'm not saying this is what "really happens" in the movie, is this:

Enterprise nearly gets sucked into a black hole at the end; we see visible cracking of at least one viewscreen due to (presumably) tidal forces. It's not much of a stretch to infer that the ship has suffered severe structural damage.

When they get back to dock, the ship is nearly written off as a loss because the hull's riddled with microfractures; the only thing keeping it spaceworthy is the structural integrity field or shields.* It's a close run thing, but they decide to overhaul the ship instead of scrapping it entirely. Enterprise spends a few years in drydock. Meanwhile, Kirk and many of his fellow Academy students graduate and serve a first tour of duty aboard other Starfleet vessels.

Kirk comes out of the affair a media darling, and not without reason: he did save Earth in particular and the Federation in general from being completely destroyed. Political pressure vastly accelerates Kirk's rise through the ranks, over the reasonable objections of many Starfleet officers. Within a few years, they're being harassed by civilian politicians who want to give the dashing young officer his own command. They're trying to bury the whole Narada Incident as deep as possible, because they wound up looking completely incompetent by failing to have any significant defenses in place to stop Narada from blowing up the Federation's core worlds. So they can't outright refuse.

Faced with the unpalatable option of promoting an officer with a lieutenant's experience and attitudes to a major ship command, they come up with a clever solution:

1)The obvious thing to do would be to give him some old clunker, but they can't do that for political reasons. So they need to give Kirk a ship, but one that the fleet won't miss very much if he manages to get it blown up. Enterprise has just come out of drydock and there are still doubts about its durability. Despite all the refits, the hull just isn't the same since that encounter with the black hole. So it's a big, shiny unit that looks good to the media, even though it can't be committed anywhere dangerous without having to worry about one of the warp nacelles falling off or something. But by giving it to Kirk, they create the illusion that they are giving him a first-rate command.

2)Give Kirk a competent minder, because while he's a dick he does seem to have some actual talent that might be worth keeping an eye on. That's where Spock comes in; he's supposed to be the voice of maturity, to keep his inexperienced commanding officer from making too many mistakes.

3)Send Kirk off on a ...um... five year mission!* To explore strange new worlds!** To seek out new life and new civilizations!*** To boldly go where no man has gone before!****

*Translation: Get him as far away as possible
**Translation: Assign him planetary survey missions in an obscure sector of space no one gives a crap about
***...which are probably in the Stone Age and thus unable to threaten a ship even with a rookie captain at the helm.
****...and where no man will ever go again, because he's wandering around the galactic equivalent of Outer Mongolia.
_________

This makes at least slightly more sense than having a cadet promoted directly to captain a few weeks after nearly being drummed out of the service for academic dishonesty.

[rhoenix]

I've given this matter quite a bit of thought since I first saw the thread. And now, I do have to say that seeing the reboot ST movie was cool at first, but I ended up feeling the same way I felt when I saw the SWI: Phantom Menace movie - disappointed, and like the director was masturbating furiously to things that looked cool, rather than as a real storytelling experience.

To elaborate - the old SW movies, episodes 4, 5 and 6 will always remain in my heart as the bar to which other good scifi must aspire. Given the lack of shiny special effects at the time, they focused more on the experiences of the characters, on the acting, and on the other little things, and it all together drew the viewer into the story wonderfully. Some of the older Trek movies were the same way, with II, III, IV, V, and VI being to me what "old school Trek" is - for the special effects they did have, they were less for the Michael Bay "watch this, this will be awesome lol" and more for the experience of a scene.

The new Trek movies before the new one came out, and the Star Wars episodes I, II, and III fell into the same trap, I feel - they focus more on looking cool than telling the story well. It was for this reason that I went into seeing the new Trek movie with as few expectations as possible.

I will give the director this - he did know how to make a cool scene. However, the emotional impact and inspiration to think simply wasn't there. It was like all the characters were wooden cutouts of their predecessors - despite being well-acted in all cases (except maybe Kirk), the writing didn't give them anywhere near enough depth. And then there are the gaping anus plotholes, complete with the fun had with a black hole at the end. If you listen very closely during that scene, you can hear the muse of the laws of Physics in a corner weeping as she drinks herself unconscious.

It honestly was the last straw that convinced me to start writing my own scifi series, and focus on doing right all the things I wanted done right. So, the nuTrek movie was good for inspiration to get off my ass and take on this project, if nothing else.

[rhoenix]

Duct-tape edit, since this was more than 5 minutes later - one thing I will give the nuTrek movie was how they treated the relationship between Uhura and Spock. That easily could have been something trivial, or even a passing thing - but it was treated very nicely.

[Vympel]

As I said at the time, I thought it was pretty decent entertainment, but nothing remotely special. My rating for it remains a solid 7 - I doubt I'll change my opinion on it when I get the Blu-Ray - the beginning of the film with the contrived birth and all that faux-who-cares-emotion-about-people-we-don't-know is just unsalvageable in its awfulness, IMO.

[Darth Wong]

Kirk comes out of the affair a media darling, and not without reason: he did save Earth in particular and the Federation in general from being completely destroyed. Political pressure vastly accelerates Kirk's rise through the ranks, over the reasonable objections of many Starfleet officers.

This (or some variant upon it) is by far the most popular explanation for Kirk's meteoric rise, but it never made sense. History is replete with war heroes. Their chests were often festooned with medals, but I am not aware of any case where such a person was dramatically vaulted up through the ranks from an entry-level position to a command position due to public pressure. If anything, you would expect someone like that to be doing PR tours for years.

PS. Did you ever wonder where the phrase "meteoric rise" came from? I used it just now, but when you think about it, it makes no sense. Meteors don't rise; they fall.

[tim31]

*snip very good quality fan explanation*

Congratulations, here's your Trek Fanclub Platinum lifetime membership

[Ryushikaze]

Kirk comes out of the affair a media darling, and not without reason: he did save Earth in particular and the Federation in general from being completely destroyed. Political pressure vastly accelerates Kirk's rise through the ranks, over the reasonable objections of many Starfleet officers.

This (or some variant upon it) is by far the most popular explanation for Kirk's meteoric rise, but it never made sense. History is replete with war heroes. Their chests were often festooned with medals, but I am not aware of any case where such a person was dramatically vaulted up through the ranks from an entry-level position to a command position due to public pressure. If anything, you would expect someone like that to be doing PR tours for years.

PS. Did you ever wonder where the phrase "meteoric rise" came from? I used it just now, but when you think about it, it makes no sense. Meteors don't rise; they fall.

Vagaries of language. After a time, a word that has a very specific meaning become vaguer. In this case, meteoric started with rapid and direct descent, and simply lost the meaning of direction.

The idea of Kirk's promotion as a political move makes some amount of sense if you think of internal politics, and perhaps people wanting to discredit Pike by showing his 'golden boy' as a once lucky incompetent?
But even then, it's something of a stretch.

[Simon_Jester]

This (or some variant upon it) is by far the most popular explanation for Kirk's meteoric rise, but it never made sense. History is replete with war heroes. Their chests were often festooned with medals, but I am not aware of any case where such a person was dramatically vaulted up through the ranks from an entry-level position to a command position due to public pressure. If anything, you would expect someone like that to be doing PR tours for years.

I'm not saying it makes sense; I'm saying it's not such a catastrophic failure to make sense as "Kirk gets promoted about two weeks after he lands." It is not a sufficient explanation, but it comes closer to being one than no explanation at all.

Personally, I thought the "send him on a five year mission to get him out of our hair" idea was slightly clever; you may have seen someone else come up with that before, but I haven't.

PS. Did you ever wonder where the phrase "meteoric rise" came from? I used it just now, but when you think about it, it makes no sense. Meteors don't rise; they fall.

If you rose really fast, you'd get that same "I'm on fire from passing through the atmosphere too fast" effect. So while you wouldn't be like a meteor, you'd look like one.

[Stark]

Ironically, of course, Kirk's 'plan' for saving the Earth was complete horseshit suicide. The world was saved due to super-contrived plot, not any attribute of Kirk's. Old Spock is the hero, not idiot boy.