Yesterday's Enterpise: Why were the Klingons winning?

[lord Martiya]

Yet, we never saw them around. And West was wearing a Starfleet uniform with a vice-admiral rank, so we don't even know why they called him a colonel.

A few ideas:

a) The rank insignia are the same. Like how in the US, a navy captain and an army colonel both wear birds.

b) Colonel might be a title of social respect, like Colonel Sanders

c) Colonel might be a military title that's separate from his other rank. Like how a navy commander can be a "captain" too if he is the boss of his own ship.


I think (b) is least likely, since that seems informal to use a social title in that setting.

(a) is certainly possible. Starfleet is a combined service, so all the same uniforms, but there still might be internal branches with different rank names.

(c) might be it too. I actually kinda lean toward it myself.

Thanks. Third is plausible too.

I hate put it this way but they did very effective job before Sisko and team arrive. 150 in 6 month able kill 107. Mine decloaking at least kill few UFP personal. Guessing one major fire fight happen every week lost something 2 soldiers a week. I personal believe ran out supplied mortar shells in something like 90 days . Also Sisko tactic seem put engineering crew and good doctor on fortlines we only see two UFP soldier fighting . One took few Jem Harder using phaser rifle as weapon before he get stab in the back other seem to have done fine job with his knife killing Jem Harder soldiers.

Except that, compared to a modern army, they did an awful job, and were awfully equipped. They only won because the Jem'Hadar acted even WORSE (like charging with a warcry in a prepared killing zone instead of shelling the area with poison gas and then just walk in while looking for boobytraps), and without the excuse of not having the equipment to act smart (the Feddies had no machine gun to defend themselves. The Jem'Hadar had mortar to shell with chemical weapons).

Oh and because the "JasonDF" persona can't resist one last crack.

I noticed, but he's so good at being bad it's easier undestand a dog.

Dog easer undestand than ur mom lol

Well, after admitting you completely fooled me until I was told (then I just continued because it was fun), I'll reply to Jason DF with this: Your mother's so fat she absorbed a black hole.

You restating the obvious like the dweeb you are is almost as bad as Martiya and his quest to "dabate star trek".

Hey, this was the first time we posted in the same topic (as far I remember. I probably forgot something), cut me some slack. Besides, I was just doing that for fun, and was a little irked by JasonB sending me this MP:

Subject: Yesterday Enterpise timeline how could Klingon winning

They didn't knew how Data had been built. But on how the Klingon were winning... I think it's a combination of a few factors:
1)Starfleet being reduced in size, thus being weaker than needed, at least in the beginning;
2)the Klingon had Romulan help, possibly by saboteurs (remember, Romulans look a lot like Vulcans, enough to fool most scans, and can go anywhere placing bombs);
3)those pesky Cardassians, Tzenkethi and Talarians drawing ships away from the Klingon front. The absence of their mention in Yesterday's Enterprise could be explained with Starfleet utterly defeating them (from what we've seen, the Cardassians were still weaker than Federation and the Talarians would have been outclassed by the goddamned KAZON), but the losses in defeating them (particularly Cardassians and, maybe, the Tzenkethi) would have been heavy enough to give the Klingon a decisive advantage.

Cardasson 18 year war Klingon over territory issues very possible Cardasson no cause UFP problem. Other sides you talking about UFP likely raped in conflict. Romulan fear possible war UFP aims capture Vuclan not per say destroy UFP. Romulan Star EMpire issues must part over Vuclan beside in normal timeline lot evidence full scale war broke out between Romulan star Empire and the Klingon Empire. Member Tash Yar lost his family Klingon raid back show likely full scale war going. After see what happen Star Trek undiscovered country were Rolulam Ambassador topic secret meeting with the UFP President suggestion not in possible Rolulem fighting UFP.
UFP likely build starship better scientific mission not restick by treaty see upgrade number days to able fire weapons. Battle Worf 359 show that and Dominion war seen starship that same class were one take more then another.

And thanks to my dog efficient work as translator, I'll finally reply to this. Here.
About the Cardassian-Klingon problem: we know little of the Betreka Nebula incident, and given the weakening of the Federation and the great deal of more valuable worlds on the Federation border, I wouldn't put past the Cardies to avoid that 'incident' to focus on the Federation. Especially after they saw UFP 'gentleness' and compared it with the Klingon way of war.
Other sides raped in conflict: well, the Talarians would be curbstomped by a couple Excelsiors and a single Ambassador, that's common knowledge, but we know nothing of the Tzenkethi, while we know that the Romulans have a powerful military, powerful enough to turn the tide of the Dominion War (until the Romulans were lured in the war, the Dominion was winning), and their ships have a scaryingly high firepower, enough that a D'Deridex can deplete to near-0 the shields of a Galaxy in a single salvo. Plus, we're not talking of open war, but of sabotage. Something the Romulans can easily do by walking around in Starfleet uniforms and acting like they belong there (we know the Federation would fall for that, we've seen a group of Augments do the very same thing on-screen) before placing the bomb. And a defeated Federation and a weakened Klingon Empire would be no obstacle to the conquest of Vulcan.
True, the Federation tend to use science ships for battle, and Starfleet purpose-built warships tend to be more powerful (in the same manner as the USS Nicholas would easily defeat a merchantman of the same tonnage with a couple Otobreda 76 mm strapped on it). But their purpose-built battleships are not invincible, as shown by the Defiant getting her ass kicked in multiple occasions and the Valiant getting destroyed in DS9 and a mere three smaller BOP defeating the Enterprise-D in Yesterday's Enterprise. Also, Romulan sabotage would help to explain how the Klingon could defeat the Federation, don't you think?

[Darth Fanboy]

O it hurts me deeply that my posts don't have your approval, fanboy. I guess I have to work harder...or don't give a shit. Probably the latter. It's not like you're someone whose opinion has much weight with me after all.

EDIT:
What's also great is that you're still nursing a grudge against me.

Grudge? What grudge? You're just a blithering idiot, prettty sure im not alone in thinking that pal.

[JasonB]

Yet, we never saw them around. And West was wearing a Starfleet uniform with a vice-admiral rank, so we don't even know why they called him a colonel.

A few ideas:

a) The rank insignia are the same. Like how in the US, a navy captain and an army colonel both wear birds.

b) Colonel might be a title of social respect, like Colonel Sanders

c) Colonel might be a military title that's separate from his other rank. Like how a navy commander can be a "captain" too if he is the boss of his own ship.


I think (b) is least likely, since that seems informal to use a social title in that setting.

(a) is certainly possible. Starfleet is a combined service, so all the same uniforms, but there still might be internal branches with different rank names.

(c) might be it too. I actually kinda lean toward it myself.

Thanks. Third is plausible too.

I hate put it this way but they did very effective job before Sisko and team arrive. 150 in 6 month able kill 107. Mine decloaking at least kill few UFP personal. Guessing one major fire fight happen every week lost something 2 soldiers a week. I personal believe ran out supplied mortar shells in something like 90 days . Also Sisko tactic seem put engineering crew and good doctor on fortlines we only see two UFP soldier fighting . One took few Jem Harder using phaser rifle as weapon before he get stab in the back other seem to have done fine job with his knife killing Jem Harder soldiers.

Except that, compared to a modern army, they did an awful job, and were awfully equipped. They only won because the Jem'Hadar acted even WORSE (like charging with a warcry in a prepared killing zone instead of shelling the area with poison gas and then just walk in while looking for boobytraps), and without the excuse of not having the equipment to act smart (the Feddies had no machine gun to defend themselves. The Jem'Hadar had mortar to shell with chemical weapons).

Oh and because the "JasonDF" persona can't resist one last crack.

I noticed, but he's so good at being bad it's easier undestand a dog.

Dog easer undestand than ur mom lol

Well, after admitting you completely fooled me until I was told (then I just continued because it was fun), I'll reply to Jason DF with this: Your mother's so fat she absorbed a black hole.

You restating the obvious like the dweeb you are is almost as bad as Martiya and his quest to "dabate star trek".

Hey, this was the first time we posted in the same topic (as far I remember. I probably forgot something), cut me some slack. Besides, I was just doing that for fun, and was a little irked by JasonB sending me this MP:

Subject: Yesterday Enterpise timeline how could Klingon winning

They didn't knew how Data had been built. But on how the Klingon were winning... I think it's a combination of a few factors:
1)Starfleet being reduced in size, thus being weaker than needed, at least in the beginning;
2)the Klingon had Romulan help, possibly by saboteurs (remember, Romulans look a lot like Vulcans, enough to fool most scans, and can go anywhere placing bombs);
3)those pesky Cardassians, Tzenkethi and Talarians drawing ships away from the Klingon front. The absence of their mention in Yesterday's Enterprise could be explained with Starfleet utterly defeating them (from what we've seen, the Cardassians were still weaker than Federation and the Talarians would have been outclassed by the goddamned KAZON), but the losses in defeating them (particularly Cardassians and, maybe, the Tzenkethi) would have been heavy enough to give the Klingon a decisive advantage.

Cardasson 18 year war Klingon over territory issues very possible Cardasson no cause UFP problem. Other sides you talking about UFP likely raped in conflict. Romulan fear possible war UFP aims capture Vuclan not per say destroy UFP. Romulan Star EMpire issues must part over Vuclan beside in normal timeline lot evidence full scale war broke out between Romulan star Empire and the Klingon Empire. Member Tash Yar lost his family Klingon raid back show likely full scale war going. After see what happen Star Trek undiscovered country were Rolulam Ambassador topic secret meeting with the UFP President suggestion not in possible Rolulem fighting UFP.
UFP likely build starship better scientific mission not restick by treaty see upgrade number days to able fire weapons. Battle Worf 359 show that and Dominion war seen starship that same class were one take more then another.

And thanks to my dog efficient work as translator, I'll finally reply to this. Here.
About the Cardassian-Klingon problem: we know little of the Betreka Nebula incident, and given the weakening of the Federation and the great deal of more valuable worlds on the Federation border, I wouldn't put past the Cardies to avoid that 'incident' to focus on the Federation. Especially after they saw UFP 'gentleness' and compared it with the Klingon way of war.
Other sides raped in conflict: well, the Talarians would be curbstomped by a couple Excelsiors and a single Ambassador, that's common knowledge, but we know nothing of the Tzenkethi, while we know that the Romulans have a powerful military, powerful enough to turn the tide of the Dominion War (until the Romulans were lured in the war, the Dominion was winning), and their ships have a scaryingly high firepower, enough that a D'Deridex can deplete to near-0 the shields of a Galaxy in a single salvo. Plus, we're not talking of open war, but of sabotage. Something the Romulans can easily do by walking around in Starfleet uniforms and acting like they belong there (we know the Federation would fall for that, we've seen a group of Augments do the very same thing on-screen) before placing the bomb. And a defeated Federation and a weakened Klingon Empire would be no obstacle to the conquest of Vulcan.
True, the Federation tend to use science ships for battle, and Starfleet purpose-built warships tend to be more powerful (in the same manner as the USS Nicholas would easily defeat a merchantman of the same tonnage with a couple Otobreda 76 mm strapped on it). But their purpose-built battleships are not invincible, as shown by the Defiant getting her ass kicked in multiple occasions and the Valiant getting destroyed in DS9 and a mere three smaller BOP defeating the Enterprise-D in Yesterday's Enterprise. Also, Romulan sabotage would help to explain how the Klingon could defeat the Federation, don't you think?

Two different problem Romulan carry out sabotage theory first and foremost is fact war going 20 years. In order war like going on left different problem Klingon Empire nearly brought knees few years war Dominion. Even Romulan able carry out sabotage mission likely do so for so long. Sector 31 deadly effective find spies and have effective test. Sector 31 is not restricted by UFP ethics codes would they likely scan every Vuclan in starfleet mind after first month Romulans trying carry something like this out. This likely reason Romulan even try to carry something like this off UFP. Scared send spie to replace Caption Pricord. Second Tesh Yar state the Klingon Empire destroy little more half starfleet. This in could starbase and other outpost and shipyards. Also fact Klingon Empire gone beyound 25 light years worth of space suggestion UFP no problem build starships for more half starfleet be destroy Klingon Empire suggestion must of them were starships. Main timeline more half starfleet required conquering major star systems strong evidence Klingon Empire get close those areas.

Also mordurn army lose more then 2 soldiers a week in fire fight sound UFP fighting that often Jem Harder. Just UFP likley lost all specialist at AR- Siegh we never seen UFP even Kirk day us something machine gun for starfleet. It also possible issues power viable at the time evidence had problem keep phaser rifle having enought power packs it possible simple power panks need to us effective.

[lord Martiya]

Two different problem Romulan carry out sabotage theory first and foremost is fact war going 20 years. In order war like going on left different problem Klingon Empire nearly brought knees few years war Dominion.

Yes, the Klingon had been nearly brought to their knees in the war, even though the Dominion was concentrating its forces against the Federation. That just tell us why the Klingon would need some outside help against the Federation.

Even Romulan able carry out sabotage mission likely do so for so long. Sector 31 deadly effective find spies and have effective test. Sector 31 is not restricted by UFP ethics codes would they likely scan every Vuclan in starfleet mind after first month Romulans trying carry something like this out.

And they scan them how? Externally there's no difference between a Vulcan and a smooth-foreheaded Romulan and internally they're still similar enough to figure as Vulcans on sensors, and any Romulan spy worth his job will avoid being touched by other Vulcans while he waltz in, place the bomb and waltz out, and stay the hell away by Betazoids, that CAN be distinguished from Humans by sensors and can recognize a spy from his thoughts.

This likely reason Romulan even try to carry something like this off UFP. Scared send spie to replace Caption Pricord.

And aborted when they realized a decent doctor with Federation technology would tell the difference and he could fail to kill himself with a cyanide pill (or whatever the Tal Shiar would give him for suicide) before a Vulcan could mind-meld. Or that a Betazoid wouldn't be fooled for long.

Second Tesh Yar state the Klingon Empire destroy little more half starfleet. This in could starbase and other outpost and shipyards. Also fact Klingon Empire gone beyound 25 light years worth of space suggestion UFP no problem build starships for more half starfleet be destroy Klingon Empire suggestion must of them were starships. Main timeline more half starfleet required conquering major star systems strong evidence Klingon Empire get close those areas.

Lost shipyards means you can repair less ships. And given the relatively little distance between Earth and the Klingon border, those 25 light years means the Klingon can theathen the Federation capital.

Also mordurn army lose more then 2 soldiers a week in fire fight sound UFP fighting that often Jem Harder.

O that the Jem'Hadar are more incompetent than modern day armies and insurgents.

Just UFP likley lost all specialist at AR- Siegh

So, all the guys killed in that battle were the competent soldiers? Quite unlikely.

we never seen UFP even Kirk day us something machine gun for starfleet.

Actually, Kirk could deploy an anti-armor weapon, and his contemporary captain Tracy could deploy a machine gun analogue with at least four charges (so much he needed to exterminate a few thousands Yangs).

It also possible issues power viable at the time evidence had problem keep phaser rifle having enought power packs it possible simple power panks need to us effective.

Then why they failed to use sustained fire weapons after being resupplied?

[JasonB]

Two different problem Romulan carry out sabotage theory first and foremost is fact war going 20 years. In order war like going on left different problem Klingon Empire nearly brought knees few years war Dominion.

Yes, the Klingon had been nearly brought to their knees in the war, even though the Dominion was concentrating its forces against the Federation. That just tell us why the Klingon would need some outside help against the Federation.

Even Romulan able carry out sabotage mission likely do so for so long. Sector 31 deadly effective find spies and have effective test. Sector 31 is not restricted by UFP ethics codes would they likely scan every Vuclan in starfleet mind after first month Romulans trying carry something like this out.

And they scan them how? Externally there's no difference between a Vulcan and a smooth-foreheaded Romulan and internally they're still similar enough to figure as Vulcans on sensors, and any Romulan spy worth his job will avoid being touched by other Vulcans while he waltz in, place the bomb and waltz out, and stay the hell away by Betazoids, that CAN be distinguished from Humans by sensors and can recognize a spy from his thoughts.

This likely reason Romulan even try to carry something like this off UFP. Scared send spie to replace Caption Pricord.

And aborted when they realized a decent doctor with Federation technology would tell the difference and he could fail to kill himself with a cyanide pill (or whatever the Tal Shiar would give him for suicide) before a Vulcan could mind-meld. Or that a Betazoid wouldn't be fooled for long.

Second Tesh Yar state the Klingon Empire destroy little more half starfleet. This in could starbase and other outpost and shipyards. Also fact Klingon Empire gone beyound 25 light years worth of space suggestion UFP no problem build starships for more half starfleet be destroy Klingon Empire suggestion must of them were starships. Main timeline more half starfleet required conquering major star systems strong evidence Klingon Empire get close those areas.

Lost shipyards means you can repair less ships. And given the relatively little distance between Earth and the Klingon border, those 25 light years means the Klingon can theathen the Federation capital.

Also mordurn army lose more then 2 soldiers a week in fire fight sound UFP fighting that often Jem Harder.

O that the Jem'Hadar are more incompetent than modern day armies and insurgents.

Just UFP likley lost all specialist at AR- Siegh

So, all the guys killed in that battle were the competent soldiers? Quite unlikely.

we never seen UFP even Kirk day us something machine gun for starfleet.

Actually, Kirk could deploy an anti-armor weapon, and his contemporary captain Tracy could deploy a machine gun analogue with at least four charges (so much he needed to exterminate a few thousands Yangs).

It also possible issues power viable at the time evidence had problem keep phaser rifle having enought power packs it possible simple power panks need to us effective.

Then why they failed to use sustained fire weapons after being resupplied?

We never get to see what happen after they were resupplied if motors launcher was already there the only thing beam down motors shells that were in boxs. The same thing goes for any machine guns they might have had available and any other heavy weapons. We would not get to seem in till another fire fight happen.Or get to see there effects.

Let get topic Romulans carry operations trying disable shipyards is the problem that Klingon Empire destroy half starfleet in 20 war less 25 light worth space. Meaning the vast major it would been starships while yes some starbase and colony destroy must it would starships. Meaning UFP had lot longer of a fleet then in the normal timeline. The Klingon able destory more half starfleet if Romulus carry that kind operation and being successful.

[PREDATOR490]

Jasonb: Why were the Klingons winning ?

Klingon Bird-of-Prey

Affiliation: Klingon Empire;
Type: Warship
Active: 2280s–2370s
Length: 110 m (varies)
Decks: Approx. 5 (varies)
Crew complement: 12 to 36+ (varies)
Speed: warp 9.8 (maximum observed)
Armament: Photon torpedo launchers (fore and aft); 2 disruptor cannons; phasers
Defenses: Deflector shields, cloaking device

Federation

Galaxy Class

Owner: United Federation of Planets
Operator: Starfleet
Type: Explorer
Active: 2360s-
Decks: 42
Crew complement: Roughly 1000
Speed: Warp 9.8 (Possible at an extreme risk)
Warp 9.6 (12 hours)
Warp 9.2 (max. cruise)
Warp 6 (initial average cruise)
Armament: 12/14 phaser arrays; 2 torpedo launchers; 250 photon torpedoes
Defenses: Deflector shields

Klingon culture might be a joke that renders them all stupid but their staple pin ship has lasted decades and can still match the finest of Starfleet's toys. All of the Klingon ships observed have been built for combat and the Klingons are brutal.

It makes sense the lofty idealism of the Federation throwing down their 'arms' in favour of Galaxy Class 'PEACE' ships and their disgust for conflict would give the Klingons a serious tactical edge until the Federation get kicked out of their stupidity. I.E The exact same thing that happend between the Borg and Dominion encounters.
The key difference with the Klingons would be the Federation dosent get the benefit of Q's warning about what is coming and to prepare for it plus the slaughter of Wolf 359 to hammer the lesson home.

Could the Romulans have been playing both sides - Sure
But the idea it required the Romulans to destroy half of Starfleet for the Klingons to win is stupid fanfiction.

The far more sensible option is the Federation was in a poor combat state with officers that were incompetent at fighting a war against the Klingons who are at least better than the Federation in both cases.

[lord Martiya]

I think the Romulan help would have been needed for a simple reason: Klingon instability and apparent poor economy (no great evidence save the poor state of their capital's streets and governement buildings and their tendence to reuse the Bird of Prey design for ships even as large as the Galaxy). That 'help' would have given them the time to sort the political infighting and replenish losses (the latter less needed as the Empire advanced and looted the richer Federation worlds). With that, the initiative seized in the beginning due to Starfleet's poor military readiness and incompetent officers, and the threath of the Romulans attacking on their own if they dared to reverse-engineer and mass-produce the cloaking device, the Federation's own advantages of superior speed, technology (manifested more evidently with quantum torpedoes and pulse phasers and less evidently with the fact the best of the Federation is still superior to the best of the Empire) and industrial output would have been just enough to prevent the Klingon from outright winning in the start, drawing the war until one side won one or more major battles. Something the Klingon seemed to have just done at the time of Yesterday's Enterprise, presumibly without Romulan help (no idea on how they would have pulled that off without being found out).

We never get to see what happen after they were resupplied if motors launcher was already there the only thing beam down motors shells that were in boxs. The same thing goes for any machine guns they might have had available and any other heavy weapons. We would not get to seem in till another fire fight happen.Or get to see there effects.

But a firefight actually happened AFTER the resupply. And yet, no support weapon.

Let get topic Romulans carry operations trying disable shipyards is the problem that Klingon Empire destroy half starfleet in 20 war less 25 light worth space. Meaning the vast major it would been starships while yes some starbase and colony destroy must it would starships. Meaning UFP had lot longer of a fleet then in the normal timeline. The Klingon able destory more half starfleet if Romulus carry that kind operation and being successful.

And, again, you miss the point. The Romulan sabotage would have denied ways to build and repair the ships, giving the Klingon the breathing space necessary for sorting their own problems and play their strenght of superior military readiness.

[JasonB]

I think the Romulan help would have been needed for a simple reason: Klingon instability and apparent poor economy (no great evidence save the poor state of their capital's streets and governement buildings and their tendence to reuse the Bird of Prey design for ships even as large as the Galaxy). That 'help' would have given them the time to sort the political infighting and replenish losses (the latter less needed as the Empire advanced and looted the richer Federation worlds). With that, the initiative seized in the beginning due to Starfleet's poor military readiness and incompetent officers, and the threath of the Romulans attacking on their own if they dared to reverse-engineer and mass-produce the cloaking device, the Federation's own advantages of superior speed, technology (manifested more evidently with quantum torpedoes and pulse phasers and less evidently with the fact the best of the Federation is still superior to the best of the Empire) and industrial output would have been just enough to prevent the Klingon from outright winning in the start, drawing the war until one side won one or more major battles. Something the Klingon seemed to have just done at the time of Yesterday's Enterprise, presumibly without Romulan help (no idea on how they would have pulled that off without being found out).

We never get to see what happen after they were resupplied if motors launcher was already there the only thing beam down motors shells that were in boxs. The same thing goes for any machine guns they might have had available and any other heavy weapons. We would not get to seem in till another fire fight happen.Or get to see there effects.

But a firefight actually happened AFTER the resupply. And yet, no support weapon.

Let get topic Romulans carry operations trying disable shipyards is the problem that Klingon Empire destroy half starfleet in 20 war less 25 light worth space. Meaning the vast major it would been starships while yes some starbase and colony destroy must it would starships. Meaning UFP had lot longer of a fleet then in the normal timeline. The Klingon able destory more half starfleet if Romulus carry that kind operation and being successful.

And, again, you miss the point. The Romulan sabotage would have denied ways to build and repair the ships, giving the Klingon the breathing space necessary for sorting their own problems and play their strenght of superior military readiness.

UFP no able lost half starfleet to Klingon in war only able get 25 light years form Earth when Klingon homeworld is 50 or less light years form Earth unless UFP able build starship super fast rate and had the able build maximum effective during begging of the war.

As for USS Defiant form what can tell they only beam few boxes must medical supplies. That other starship brought troop replace and supplies might have will beam down motor shells, machine guns who know what else. We know another fire fight never show on screen.

[lord Martiya]

UFP no able lost half starfleet to Klingon in war only able get 25 light years form Earth when Klingon homeworld is 50 or less light years form Earth unless UFP able build starship super fast rate and had the able build maximum effective during begging of the war.

Yet, the Klingon did. And on how the Federation was able to survive the initial onslought... Do you remember the volatility of Klingon politics? They got a chanchellor outright KILLED in the middle of a major war by another Klingon and the only reaction of the witnesses was to name the killer as the new chanchellor, and a Klingon ship first officer is EXPECTED to kill his commander if he gives reasonable suspicions of cowardice or incompetence. And a civil war erupted to give the chanchellorship to the bastard son of a dishonored claimant.

As for USS Defiant form what can tell they only beam few boxes must medical supplies. That other starship brought troop replace and supplies might have will beam down motor shells, machine guns who know what else. We know another fire fight never show on screen.

Well, you'll have to explain me what a 'motor shell' is (unless you meant 'mortar shells'). Apart that, I saw no red cross nor caduceus or rod of Aclepius on the boxes. OK, they could change medical symbols in over three centuries, but why they MUST be medical supplies? Considering that phaser power packs WERE in the cargo, you have to explain that statement.

[JasonB]

UFP no able lost half starfleet to Klingon in war only able get 25 light years form Earth when Klingon homeworld is 50 or less light years form Earth unless UFP able build starship super fast rate and had the able build maximum effective during begging of the war.

Yet, the Klingon did. And on how the Federation was able to survive the initial onslought... Do you remember the volatility of Klingon politics? They got a chanchellor outright KILLED in the middle of a major war by another Klingon and the only reaction of the witnesses was to name the killer as the new chanchellor, and a Klingon ship first officer is EXPECTED to kill his commander if he gives reasonable suspicions of cowardice or incompetence. And a civil war erupted to give the chanchellorship to the bastard son of a dishonored claimant.

As for USS Defiant form what can tell they only beam few boxes must medical supplies. That other starship brought troop replace and supplies might have will beam down motor shells, machine guns who know what else. We know another fire fight never show on screen.

Well, you'll have to explain me what a 'motor shell' is (unless you meant 'mortar shells'). Apart that, I saw no red cross nor caduceus or rod of Aclepius on the boxes. OK, they could change medical symbols in over three centuries, but why they MUST be medical supplies? Considering that phaser power packs WERE in the cargo, you have to explain that statement.

Let put this way USS Defiant no way resupplied AR-558 fact did not even have state art medical equipment at that base.Other wise why have bandages on.
USS Defiant could not resupplied AR-558 with medical equipment what make think resupplied full weapons. For that matter I except really resupplied set phaser rifle wide spread kill great deal more power packs available. Also possible all specialist train use mortars were killed. Let face they need at least medic possible even doctor and back up doctor, engineering team might will, stander foot soldiers and few specialists.

If there was Klingon civil war UFP would have over ran Klingon Empire .we can rule that out. Klingon crew member kill each other would be cause some disorder. However Klingion Empire able wage war Cardasson Union no problem. Again only way I could see Klingon be winning is if Klingon Empire if UFP last standing power.

[lord Martiya]

[quote="JasonB]Let put this way USS Defiant no way resupplied AR-558 fact did not even have state art medical equipment at that base.Other wise why have bandages on.[/quote]
That equipment would take space from items for the mission. That's why they have no advanced medical equipment.
[quote="JasonB]USS Defiant could not resupplied AR-558 with medical equipment what make think resupplied full weapons.[/quote]
The fact they were FIGHTING, against a force that was trying to kill anyone in that place, and in an area that would be a blessing for any defender with a machine gun.
[quote="JasonB]For that matter I except really resupplied set phaser rifle wide spread kill great deal more power packs available.[/quote]
Except phasers never demonstrated such ability. Try again.
[quote="JasonB]Also possible all specialist train use mortars were killed. Let face they need at least medic possible even doctor and back up doctor, engineering team might will, stander foot soldiers and few specialists.[/quote]
OK, mortars would be a little tricky, but it's not THAT difficult to use a machine gun. You have to aim in the general area, pull the trigger and insert a fresh magazine or belt when needed. I ask to anyone with military experience: is there any difficult to operate a machine gun in a chokepoint, apart changing the magazine or belt?
[quote="JasonB]If there was Klingon civil war UFP would have over ran Klingon Empire .we can rule that out.[/quote]
Sorry, not: between UFP deprecable military readiness (or lack thereof), the people's pacifism and the Romulan sabotage I suggested, Starfleet would be unable to mount a counteroffensive. In fact, I can't imagine any reason for such a prolonged war other than the Klingon stopping every few years to sort a new succession crisis for the Chanchellorship after the last one lost a challenge for the job and the Federation being unable to capitalize due Romulan sabotage and those pesky Cardassians and Tzenkethi pressing on other frontiers.
[quote="JasonB]Klingon crew member kill each other would be cause some disorder. However Klingion Empire able wage war Cardasson Union no problem.[/quote]
They were WINNING, there would be no reason to challenge high-ranking generals or the Chanchellor, nor a great supply of excuses to kill your immediate senior officer.
[quote="JasonB]Again only way I could see Klingon be winning is if Klingon Empire if UFP last standing power.[/quote]
Or having the Federation tormented by its other enemies and unable to capitalize on the Klingon peculiar promotion customs.

[JasonB]

USS Defiant could not resupplied AR-558 with medical equipment what make think resupplied full weapons.

The fact they were FIGHTING, against a force that was trying to kill anyone in that place, and in an area that would be a blessing for any defender with a machine gun.

Also possible all specialist train use mortars were killed. Let face they need at least medic possible even doctor and back up doctor, engineering team might will, stander foot soldiers and few specialists.

OK, mortars would be a little tricky, but it's not THAT difficult to use a machine gun. You have to aim in the general area, pull the trigger and insert a fresh magazine or belt when needed. I ask to anyone with military experience: is there any difficult to operate a machine gun in a chokepoint, apart changing the magazine or belt?

Klingon crew member kill each other would be cause some disorder. However Klingion Empire able wage war Cardasson Union no problem.

They were WINNING, there would be no reason to challenge high-ranking generals or the Chanchellor, nor a great supply of excuses to kill your immediate senior officer.
[quote="JasonB]Again only way I could see Klingon be winning is if Klingon Empire if UFP last standing power.

Or having the Federation tormented by its other enemies and unable to capitalize on the Klingon peculiar promotion customs.[/quote][/quote]
So we agree to disagree on the possible reason the Klingon Empire were winning either. You think Romulan sabotage is possible reason why UFP being beaten and other enemy. I think Klingon Empire would had cauqured all Cardassion, Romulan and Breens in order this possible we agree to disagree. I personal think UFP the Romulan were doing any kind sabotage it would we heard something ROmulans not Klingon Empire destory half the fleet.

[PREDATOR490]

Alternatively, your both peddling a load of unsupported and speculative shit when the simplest and logical conclusion is:

The Klingons are simply better armed, better prepared and far more effective fighters compared to the Federation.

Quantum Torpedoes / Pulse Phasers - Created to fight the Borg POST BOBW and dont enter service until 5 years AFTER the events of YE

The entire Federation fleet is built for exploration and the events of YE hardly seem to have done much at all if the Feds are STILL building Galaxy Class Carriers that travel alone compared to the Klingons sending out wolf packs. This behaviour was equally observed during the Dominion War.

I find the attempts to call the Klingon economy and technology weak because they like things to be bleak extremely silly. The B'rel has been in service for almost 100 years and manages to function quite well. The flagship of the Federation is more than a match for a poor old design - except when the dumbass Feds flying them collectively fuck up like Generations.
The Federation likes to build dozens of various classes for specialist roles but none of them have been dedicated warships until the Defiant.
The Klingons exclusively build warships on hulls that have proven their versatility and they build them in large numbers.

If anything the conclusion here is the Klingons are far more effective at building warships their Empire can support while the Feds pump out limited edition toys like the Defiant, Prometheus and Akira. A single Defiant might be awesome but the DS9: Rules of Engagement demonstrates the Defiant getting it's ass kicked by two Klingon ships using superior tactics to hold her at bay.

BOBW was the greatest and perhaps biggest lesson the Federation learned in the passed 100 years about their pacifist ideals. A lesson that will not be duplicated in YE timeline
A) We have no indication if they met Q
B) We have no indication they were hurled to meet the Borg or the Borg showed any intrest
C) Without A or B the events of BOBW would not occur and even if they DID, YE is before BOBW so the Borg would arrive sometime later

It is Romulan fanwank that would propose the idea that all of Starfleet got 'sabotaged' inorder for the Klingons to win
Equally, the idea the Klingons had to beat everyone else before the Federation is stupid.

Cardassians - What the hell do they need to invade them for ?
Romulans - While it would make sense for the Klingons to invade the Romulans it is by no means a requirement for engaging the Federation

I personal think UFP the Romulan were doing any kind sabotage it would we heard something ROmulans not Klingon Empire destory half the fleet.

That works both ways, fool.
If the Klingons went around invading the galaxy we would have heard something about that as well, right ?

[lord Martiya]

So we agree to disagree on the possible reason the Klingon Empire were winning either. You think Romulan sabotage is possible reason why UFP being beaten and other enemy.

No. I think Romulan sabotage and other military distractions being the reason the Federation failed to capitalize on the one weak point of the Klingon Empire, its tendence to kill leaders who screwed up and the ensuing chaos.

I think Klingon Empire would had cauqured all Cardassion, Romulan and Breens in order this possible.

If the Klingon had conquered the Romulan Star Empire, the losses would be so great the Cardassians would have conquered THEM: the Star Empire doesn't have only saboteurs but also heavily armed starships with better cloaking devices.

I personal think UFP the Romulan were doing any kind sabotage it would we heard something ROmulans not Klingon Empire destory half the fleet.

And that's how, given the Romulans would like to hide their involvement?

Alternatively, your both peddling a load of unsupported and speculative shit when the simplest and logical conclusion is:

The Klingons are simply better armed, better prepared and far more effective fighters compared to the Federation.

That was obvious. I'm trying to understand why it took them so long. Given what we've seen in canon, my guess is that the Klingon screwed up in the beginning and heads rolled, and something prevented Starfleet's more militant elements (like captain Maxwell) from capitalizing. And given what we know happened in canon and Romulan behaviour, my guess is that wars with lesser enemies like Cardassia, the Tzenkethi and even the Talarians drawed forces from that front and the Romulans sabotaged UFP shipyards and starbases to further complicate things.

Quantum Torpedoes / Pulse Phasers - Created to fight the Borg POST BOBW and dont enter service until 5 years AFTER the events of YE

I know. I just choose the wrong way to point out that in war research usually goes to better weapons that are not plagued by design flaws.

The entire Federation fleet is built for exploration and the events of YE hardly seem to have done much at all if the Feds are STILL building Galaxy Class Carriers that travel alone compared to the Klingons sending out wolf packs. This behaviour was equally observed during the Dominion War.

I know that behaviour, and I'm still wondering what the admiralty was thinking when they sent the Defiant to study a space anomaly (where the hell were the Oberths, I wonder? And the ships enforcing the embargo on Romulan Ale?). About what the Enterprise-D was doing alone, I'd say commerce raiding: that ship packed a lot of firepower and was quite fast, and without cloaking device a ship like that was the best thing Starfleet had to attack Klingon supply ships.

I find the attempts to call the Klingon economy and technology weak because they like things to be bleak extremely silly. The B'rel has been in service for almost 100 years and manages to function quite well. The flagship of the Federation is more than a match for a poor old design - except when the dumbass Feds flying them collectively fuck up like Generations.

I'm not saying the Klingon economy and technology are inferior because they like things to be bleak. I'm saying their economy is quite poor because of the state of their capital's streets and non-governement buildings (either they're poor or they don't care of keeping it clean), and that their technology is inferior because we have some evidence of that (best one was Dukat and Kira discussing on how the Federation shared its photon torpedo designs with the Klingon).

The Federation likes to build dozens of various classes for specialist roles but none of them have been dedicated warships until the Defiant.
The Klingons exclusively build warships on hulls that have proven their versatility and they build them in large numbers.

I know. But I wonder: what was the rationale in those BoP-like ships long as much as the Enterprise-D? I can see a lot of issues with that kind of scaling up...

If anything the conclusion here is the Klingons are far more effective at building warships their Empire can support while the Feds pump out limited edition toys like the Defiant, Prometheus and Akira. A single Defiant might be awesome but the DS9: Rules of Engagement demonstrates the Defiant getting it's ass kicked by two Klingon ships using superior tactics to hold her at bay.

Without pulling out non-canon books, you could have pointed out how embarassingly easy the Jem'Hadar captured the Defiant in The Search, Part I after losing a bugship from underestimating the new Federation toy, or how they did it again in One Little Ship. I was just trying to justify how the Klingon took so long in a canon-respectant way.

BOBW was the greatest and perhaps biggest lesson the Federation learned in the passed 100 years about their pacifist ideals. A lesson that will not be duplicated in YE timeline
A) We have no indication if they met Q
B) We have no indication they were hurled to meet the Borg or the Borg showed any intrest
C) Without A or B the events of BOBW would not occur and even if they DID, YE is before BOBW so the Borg would arrive sometime later

In this timeline, the Federation would have had the Klingon early victories to learn.

It is Romulan fanwank that would propose the idea that all of Starfleet got 'sabotaged' inorder for the Klingons to win

In order for Starfleet not to capitalize on the infamous Klingon Promotions, SOMETHING had to happen.

Equally, the idea the Klingons had to beat everyone else before the Federation is stupid.

Cardassians - What the hell do they need to invade them for ?
Romulans - While it would make sense for the Klingons to invade the Romulans it is by no means a requirement for engaging the Federation

On this one we agree. I'll say no more on this unless JasonB bring it up again.

[JasonB]

So we agree to disagree on the possible reason the Klingon Empire were winning either. You think Romulan sabotage is possible reason why UFP being beaten and other enemy.

No. I think Romulan sabotage and other military distractions being the reason the Federation failed to capitalize on the one weak point of the Klingon Empire, its tendence to kill leaders who screwed up and the ensuing chaos.

I think Klingon Empire would had cauqured all Cardassion, Romulan and Breens in order this possible.

If the Klingon had conquered the Romulan Star Empire, the losses would be so great the Cardassians would have conquered THEM: the Star Empire doesn't have only saboteurs but also heavily armed starships with better cloaking devices.

I personal think UFP the Romulan were doing any kind sabotage it would we heard something ROmulans not Klingon Empire destory half the fleet.

And that's how, given the Romulans would like to hide their involvement?

Alternatively, your both peddling a load of unsupported and speculative shit when the simplest and logical conclusion is:

The Klingons are simply better armed, better prepared and far more effective fighters compared to the Federation.

That was obvious. I'm trying to understand why it took them so long. Given what we've seen in canon, my guess is that the Klingon screwed up in the beginning and heads rolled, and something prevented Starfleet's more militant elements (like captain Maxwell) from capitalizing. And given what we know happened in canon and Romulan behaviour, my guess is that wars with lesser enemies like Cardassia, the Tzenkethi and even the Talarians drawed forces from that front and the Romulans sabotaged UFP shipyards and starbases to further complicate things.

Quantum Torpedoes / Pulse Phasers - Created to fight the Borg POST BOBW and dont enter service until 5 years AFTER the events of YE

I know. I just choose the wrong way to point out that in war research usually goes to better weapons that are not plagued by design flaws.

The entire Federation fleet is built for exploration and the events of YE hardly seem to have done much at all if the Feds are STILL building Galaxy Class Carriers that travel alone compared to the Klingons sending out wolf packs. This behaviour was equally observed during the Dominion War.

I know that behaviour, and I'm still wondering what the admiralty was thinking when they sent the Defiant to study a space anomaly (where the hell were the Oberths, I wonder? And the ships enforcing the embargo on Romulan Ale?). About what the Enterprise-D was doing alone, I'd say commerce raiding: that ship packed a lot of firepower and was quite fast, and without cloaking device a ship like that was the best thing Starfleet had to attack Klingon supply ships.

I find the attempts to call the Klingon economy and technology weak because they like things to be bleak extremely silly. The B'rel has been in service for almost 100 years and manages to function quite well. The flagship of the Federation is more than a match for a poor old design - except when the dumbass Feds flying them collectively fuck up like Generations.

I'm not saying the Klingon economy and technology are inferior because they like things to be bleak. I'm saying their economy is quite poor because of the state of their capital's streets and non-governement buildings (either they're poor or they don't care of keeping it clean), and that their technology is inferior because we have some evidence of that (best one was Dukat and Kira discussing on how the Federation shared its photon torpedo designs with the Klingon).

The Federation likes to build dozens of various classes for specialist roles but none of them have been dedicated warships until the Defiant.
The Klingons exclusively build warships on hulls that have proven their versatility and they build them in large numbers.

I know. But I wonder: what was the rationale in those BoP-like ships long as much as the Enterprise-D? I can see a lot of issues with that kind of scaling up...

If anything the conclusion here is the Klingons are far more effective at building warships their Empire can support while the Feds pump out limited edition toys like the Defiant, Prometheus and Akira. A single Defiant might be awesome but the DS9: Rules of Engagement demonstrates the Defiant getting it's ass kicked by two Klingon ships using superior tactics to hold her at bay.

Without pulling out non-canon books, you could have pointed out how embarassingly easy the Jem'Hadar captured the Defiant in The Search, Part I after losing a bugship from underestimating the new Federation toy, or how they did it again in One Little Ship. I was just trying to justify how the Klingon took so long in a canon-respectant way.

BOBW was the greatest and perhaps biggest lesson the Federation learned in the passed 100 years about their pacifist ideals. A lesson that will not be duplicated in YE timeline
A) We have no indication if they met Q
B) We have no indication they were hurled to meet the Borg or the Borg showed any intrest
C) Without A or B the events of BOBW would not occur and even if they DID, YE is before BOBW so the Borg would arrive sometime later

In this timeline, the Federation would have had the Klingon early victories to learn.

It is Romulan fanwank that would propose the idea that all of Starfleet got 'sabotaged' inorder for the Klingons to win

In order for Starfleet not to capitalize on the infamous Klingon Promotions, SOMETHING had to happen.

Equally, the idea the Klingons had to beat everyone else before the Federation is stupid.

Cardassians - What the hell do they need to invade them for ?
Romulans - While it would make sense for the Klingons to invade the Romulans it is by no means a requirement for engaging the Federation

On this one we agree. I'll say no more on this unless JasonB bring it up again.

I have another piece evidence show UFP must likely last major power standing . The fact USS Galaxy class battleship. Either first Galaxy class starship either rush service basic when war started or was in service when war started or UFP not taking war seriously. I another piece evidnec UFP likley last major power left in way Klingon Empire.
By the way interst piece fan fiction Klingon and UFP having push differents as side with Borg threat in Yesterday Enterprise timeline .

[Enigma]

I have another piece evidence show UFP must likely last major power standing . The fact USS Galaxy class battleship. Either first Galaxy class starship either rush service basic when war started or was in service when war started or UFP not taking war seriously. I another piece evidnec UFP likley last major power left in way Klingon Empire.

That isn't evidence. That is pure Grade A bullshit speculation.

[lord Martiya]

I have another piece evidence show UFP must likely last major power standing . The fact USS Galaxy class battleship. Either first Galaxy class starship either rush service basic when war started or was in service when war started or UFP not taking war seriously. I another piece evidnec UFP likley last major power left in way Klingon Empire.

Evidence of what? That your argument can be used to fertilize? Translation: this latest argument of your is even more bullshit than usual.

[JasonB]

I have a simple answer to why Klingion winning that war the Borg. Borg had attack both Romulun and UFP outposts along Romulun Neutral Zone and Neither side know Borg at the time. So it is possible Borg could have help play a role in weaken the UFP in Yesterday Enterprise timeline. However if USS Enterprise C had not been send back I have a feeling the Borg would have send in big ships that force both Klingon Empire and UFP to become allies in order to survival. Guessing that would have even save them since both side greatly weaken by that war.

[Danny]

It seems to me Jason B is lacking a little bit of common sense, and star trek knowledge. Here it goes:

All your little theories about the exocomps and building more Data's to command ships, thereby lessening casualties [and etc] boils down to this: What makes you think all of which would happen in an alternate timeline?

Who's to say the Klingons during the war didnt kill Dr. Farallon who designed the exocomps in the first place? Its a known fact that Noonien Soong was the ONLY person who knew how to create a positronic Android. Even Commander Maddox [one of the leading cyberneticists in Starfleet] didnt know how Data functioned. Who is to say the Klingons didnt kill Soong in a raid, or the Crystaline Entity?
See in Star Trek they tell you 1 little change in the timeline greatly alters whatever may [or has] happened in the present and future. Perhaps the Klingon War changed the situations so greatly Data is never discovered on the colony by starfleet, as they were busy fighting klingon ships.
Also:
Why would the Romulans get involved in the first place? They would be content watching their 2 biggest rivals slug it out and essentially damage each other so badly, they could easily pick off the winner. And why would the Klingons need to invade the cardassians or anyone else for that matter in order to fight the federation? I doubt the Klingons are surrounded on all sides lol!

Cloned MACO soldiers? Why didnt starfleet take advantage of this in the Dominion War? Because they didnt like the idea of cloned soldiers like the Dominion did. And i found your qoute on "Starfleet was better, smarter and tougher" Laughable. The ONLY reason starfleet won was because of the prophets. First episode of the 6th season on DS9- 3 months after war was declared starfleet and the klingons got their asses whupped. 2000+ Dominion ships from the Gamma quadrant was considered the catalyst- meaning they would have lost if the reinforcements entered Alpha. I say within 4-5 months, the Dominion would have won and the Romulans would be pissing their pants. Starfleet wasnt "better". I dont consider a buncha of exploring crybabies "better". Smarter? In what sense? The federation encountered dozens of wars since its inception, and still they are pacifists who dislike the idea of warships in an ever growing violent quadrant. Better tech maybe? Sure, in some areas. But we all know despite Starfleet's many advancements, they still got B-slapped by the Dominion. Tougher? ...dont make me go there.

Also, your fan vids arent canon [as in they are not accepted by the star trek community].

[Darth Tedious]

Borg had attack both Romulun and UFP outposts along Romulun Neutral Zone and Neither side know Borg at the time.

I believe even that was pure fan speculation...

Was there ever any mention in canon that it was the Borg doing that?

[Stofsk]

Yeah, it was in my opinion. In 'Q Who' Data points out the cratering pattern on the habitable world in system J-25 matched what occurred to the outposts along the Neutral Zone. It's not outright confirmed but it's pretty heavily implied that it was the Borg who were responsible.

[Darth Tedious]

Ah, yes indeed. I'd forgotten all about that. I really must head clean and demagnetise my VCR, I haven't watched Q Who for years.

Oh, for the days when the Borg were still scary as shit...

Back on topic, I really don't see how the Borg would be making any kind of major offensive while remaining clandestine. They did to some extent in Descent, but they were the notreallyBorg under Lore's command. Of all the Borg's 'tactics' we've seen, stealth isn't exactly a strong suit for them.

[Stofsk]

I agree that the Borg, as at least portrayed by the time of Voyager, were a joke. In TNG they were presented as a pretty dangerous and unparalleled threat. As far as stealth is concerned, remember that Hugh was the sole survivor of a scout ship. I don't want to conclude anything from that beyond that even the Borg do recon missions with small teams onboard small vessels. (Although I imagine that scout ship was part of a cube, so it could be the Borg equivalent of a Starfleet shuttle/runabout)

[Darth Tedious]

I'd agree they have some ability to go unnoticed when scouting, and even making small strikes. It just seems unlikely that they'd be maintaining any level of stealth while making large-scale assaults. To cause a level of damage sufficient to tip the balance of power of a whole quadrant, they'd very soon get noticed. Particularly when the only two strategies we've seen them use in large-scale attacks have been "swarm them with munbers" and "go for the guts".

[Darth Fanboy]

It seems to me Jason B is lacking a little bit of common sense, and star trek knowledge. Here it goes:

All your little theories about the exocomps and building more Data's to command ships, thereby lessening casualties [and etc] boils down to this: What makes you think all of which would happen in an alternate timeline?

Who's to say the Klingons during the war didnt kill Dr. Farallon who designed the exocomps in the first place? Its a known fact that Noonien Soong was the ONLY person who knew how to create a positronic Android. Even Commander Maddox [one of the leading cyberneticists in Starfleet] didnt know how Data functioned. Who is to say the Klingons didnt kill Soong in a raid, or the Crystaline Entity?
See in Star Trek they tell you 1 little change in the timeline greatly alters whatever may [or has] happened in the present and future. Perhaps the Klingon War changed the situations so greatly Data is never discovered on the colony by starfleet, as they were busy fighting klingon ships.
Also:
Why would the Romulans get involved in the first place? They would be content watching their 2 biggest rivals slug it out and essentially damage each other so badly, they could easily pick off the winner. And why would the Klingons need to invade the cardassians or anyone else for that matter in order to fight the federation? I doubt the Klingons are surrounded on all sides lol!

Cloned MACO soldiers? Why didnt starfleet take advantage of this in the Dominion War? Because they didnt like the idea of cloned soldiers like the Dominion did. And i found your qoute on "Starfleet was better, smarter and tougher" Laughable. The ONLY reason starfleet won was because of the prophets. First episode of the 6th season on DS9- 3 months after war was declared starfleet and the klingons got their asses whupped. 2000+ Dominion ships from the Gamma quadrant was considered the catalyst- meaning they would have lost if the reinforcements entered Alpha. I say within 4-5 months, the Dominion would have won and the Romulans would be pissing their pants. Starfleet wasnt "better". I dont consider a buncha of exploring crybabies "better". Smarter? In what sense? The federation encountered dozens of wars since its inception, and still they are pacifists who dislike the idea of warships in an ever growing violent quadrant. Better tech maybe? Sure, in some areas. But we all know despite Starfleet's many advancements, they still got B-slapped by the Dominion. Tougher? ...dont make me go there.

Also, your fan vids arent canon [as in they are not accepted by the star trek community].

Danny,

You do realize that lot of this stuff you are referring to is shit I made up while pretending to act like Jason right? We had like, a lot of posts pointing out that it was all a big joke.